[thechat] better argument this time

[javier velasco]

Madhu Menon wrote:
>
> At 07:00 PM 08-01-03, javier velasco wrote:
> >they discovered that the harder teh proble, the less useful rational
> >thought becomes, just to quote one phrase:
>
> I've not read the article yet, but are you really saying that spirituality
> will help people make better decisions?

not at all, i never talked about spirituality.

in this case i'm talking about gut feelings, that are NOT using rational
process. but what i'm trying to say is beyond this, it's so hard to
explain (and you wouldn't buy it anwyay).

> Of course, there are times when all variables aren't known. That doesn't
> mean that thinking isn't required.
> What is usually called instinct is just your brain working and deciding
> really fast from having done that kind of thing many times before, and
> hence drawing on your experience. You don't see many 20 somethings as Army
> Generals, do you? When you get a gut feel, it's usually based on
> *something* you know.

it's working with your brain and emotions - if you read the article
beyond they quote a study involving card-games where they develop this
idea.


> There's an inherent flaw of selective thinking (
> http://www.skepdic.com/selectiv.html )

i'll check this later, thanks for the link

> when magazine articles like these
> are published. Sure, they'll point out all the successes from following
> your gut, but never about the failures.
>
> OK, this article has so many holes that it would take a LONG time to blow
> it to bits. So many straw man arguments. Maybe some other time.

ok, but that's another story. i'm not saying the article is solid
evidence, it just talks about one of the things i'm thinking about.


> They're pitching intuition as an alternative to rational thinking, when in
> fact, it's just an extension. When decisions have to be made in a hurry and
> you don't have complete data, you consider probabilities. Those probability
> calculations are usually based on experience and rational analysis.

no man, this article mentions decisions that don't leave you enough time
to ponder probabilities.

i can also think of those crazy downhill MTB rides i used to do, in such
situation, you cannot ponder what's your best path, you just have to
FEEL the surface and how your bike is absorbing it, and let your body
react in a an primal (animal) form, the moment you start thinking about
it, and questioning the situation, you're sure to fall down. the less
you think, the faster you ride. i imagine surfing is similar.

what about capoeira, aard? wouldn't that be another activity where
rational thought must be left out in favor of some differnt kind of
process? this lets you engage in an incredible coordination with the
other part - have you seen the kids in brazil? (amazing)
i assume that in capoeira if you start pondering your moves you could
get into trouble (eat someone's foot)

> What's all this got to do with spirituality (or ham), Javi? (That was your
> original argument, no?)

no, not at all. you got me all wrong, i realize my original explanation
was quite confusing :(

i've seen many people who behave 100% rationally and can be very good
for some stuff, but fail on others horribly.

rationality is one tool we have, but we have others as well - does that
make my point clearer?