[thechat] Religious dependance

[aardvark]

> From: "m-s s-u-c-k-s" <mssux0rz at hotmail.com>
[...]
> let's say there is a room with a big red button on the end of a short
> pedestal in the center of the room. this button is very important in
[...]
> the button will release 1000 "weapons of mass desctruction" throughout
> the world to specific targets.
>
> and lets also say that there is a man in this room who has two duty's.
> the first being that he take care of the room and keep it clean, the
> second and equally important duty is to never touch the red button. he
[...]

you've eloquently described the History Eraser Button from a Ren &
Stimpy episode...
http://members.fortunecity.com/chippy3/other/erase.html

in it, Stimpy is explicitly told not to touch the button...
ultimately, however, he does... and ultimately, Ren is pleased,
because he knew full well Stimpy couldn't resist the urge -- that's
why he told him about it and put him there...

after all, no one else was on the ship, Ren didn't need to tell
Stimpy about it, and if he hadn't told Stimpy, no one would have ever
pressed the button...

now, if Ren had *created* stimpy to press this button, then we'd have
a perfect parallel to your story...

as you can see, based on your example, god did, in fact, tempt adam
and knew full well what he was capable of... he could have hidden the
tree, smote the snake, or even explained the consequences to adam...

but no, this was the grumpy-pants god of the old testament, always
looking for a good reason to blow things up... and really down with
the idea of punishing *all mankind* for *all eternity* just because
one guy was sweet-talked by a snake...

who made the snake? and put the snake in front of the otherwise
innocent adam?

sorry, that whole story is just a terrible excuse for why bad things
happen and a flawed way to explain it to people who just can't accept
that, yes, bad stuff happens... it just *does*...

[...]
> in the same way that this man screwed up and ruined it for everyone
> else, so did adam screw it up for everyone else. the people of the
> world with the button who were killed by the man that disobeyed his
> superiors did not deserve to die. nor did they deserve to have their
> bodies crushed by the shockwave of the blasts. as do neither you or i
> deserve to get sick or be hurt in any way. but it happens anyway
> because of one mans poor decision.

complete cop-out... punishing all mankind for a guy who was obviously
too innocent to know he was being deceived, and purposely placing
him, without explanation, within arms' reach of the means of his own
destruction, does in no way explain anything of god's "mysterious
ways" or "greater plan"... it instead says a lot more about the
mindset of the people who created and perpetuated the image over
time, who were unable to come up with satisfactory explanations for
why bad stuff happens...

and if it *were* true, that is not a god i'd be interested in
worshipping, nor would i trust...

> to have free will requires that there be more than one choice to be
> made. otherwise how could it possible be free will? with adam it was a
> choice between right and wrong. god told adam not to eat the fruit, he
> did anyway. the tree was called "the fruit of the knowledge of good
> and evil". before adam ate the fruit he knew only good, he could not
> conceive of evil. he did not have knowledge of what evil was. god
> didn't tell adam what would happen if he ate of the fruit because that
> would require god to explain evil to him. adam wasn't told, "bad
> things will happen if you eat this" because adam would not comprehend
> what bad meant. he was only told, "don't eat this fruit."

well, if god created something that can't understand the concept of
things happening that you won't like, there was a fundamental flaw...
and no, the name of the tree is not an accurate portrayal of the
eternity of misery it would bring...

[...]
> (in the last episode...) to give man a free will god had to set two
> choices in front of adam otherwise it could not be free will.
>
> let's put it this way... if god put the tree in a room with a locked
> door and hid the key to the room in his dresser drawer and still told
> adam not to eat the fruit, doesn't it stand to reason that adam could
> respond with "how can i do as you say if you don't even give me the
> ability to disobey?" where is the free will in not being able to go
> more than one way?
[...]

or perhaps man already had free will (after all, the decision to eat
the apple was made *before* eating the apple) and that just burned up
god so much, that in a fit of anger, he plopped the tree in there,
knowing full well he could have the perfect excuse to slap man around
*and* blame it on him with an eternal guilt trip...

sounds like mankind has battered wife syndrome...

--
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