[thechat] Snowball fight turns... umm... I don't even knowhowto express it...

Chris Marsh chris at ecleanuk.com
Tue Feb 25 09:11:00 CST 2003


> On Tue, 2003-02-25 at 13:49, Chris Marsh wrote:
> > The previous post implied that gun-control would solve gun crime. I
> > was merely stating facts. Fact number 1) The UK implemented "gun
> > control" some time ago. Fact number 2) The UK has an escalating
> > firearms problem.
>
> Still no causal link.  You're implying that the gun ban
> isn't helping, as compared to the theoretical universe
> in which the ban didn't happen.  And that cannot be supported
> with the data you're using.

The gun ban is clearly *not* helping. Illegal handguns are increasing in
number. More people are being shot. The gun ban _only_affects_citizens_.
Criminals are the people committing crimes. Since when would banning a
legitimate commodity have any affect on the illegitimate market other
than to increase it's health? Supply and demand ensures this. It would
appear that banning legitimate ownership of firearms has not had any
negative affect on the lines of supply into this country. It has not
reduced the allure of guns to young criminals, and it's penalties
instill no fear in the hearts of lawbreakers. Thus all it has done is to
remove the immediate potential for legitimate self defence from a
minority of law-abiding citizens.

[..]

> "Does not prevent gun crime" != "Does not prevent all gun crime"

*Ahem* I am aware of this :)

"Prevents a single instance of crime" != "Necessarily a Good Thing for
society"

[..]

> > The math? Er, perhaps you missed this bit: "Firearms were
> used in 12
> > per cent of homicides, an increase of 32 per cent (23 cases) on
> > 2000/01".
>
> Perhaps *you* missed it.
>
> ~80 gun-related homicides.  In the entire UK (pop: 54
> million) in a year.  In a territory which, and sorry for
> pointing it out, according to your cited document in fact
> INCLUDES NORTHERN IRELAND. Compare that to any random place
> without such a serious gun ban, either in real numbers or as
> a proportion of population.  Yes, including Switzerland.

*shrug* Irrellevant. We're looking at _trends_within_ the UK, not
comparisons with other states. If you wish to bring other states into
the discussion, you must supply data describing domestic trends.

So, we have the following:

1) Guns are banned.
2) Gun ownership is increasing.
3) Gun crimes are increasing.
4) Gun use resulting in fatalities is increasing.
5) 100% of guns used in gun crimes are illegal.

How can you assert that gun control works?

Regards

Chris Marsh




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