[thechat] Snowball fight turns... umm... I don't even know howto express it...

Chris Marsh chris at ecleanuk.com
Wed Feb 26 10:38:08 CST 2003


> > Why would you make that assumption? Place a product on the black
> > market, it's price drops.
> As we've seen by the spectacular drop in the price of
> drugs... oh, hang on...

I'm not sure if this is sarcastic, but this is *exactly* what occurs.
The price of drugs on the street either stays constant; which is
effectively a drop in price given the rate of inflation; or it drops.
Ecstasy was around £15 per tablet when it first appeared, prices range
from about £1 to £3 per tablet now. Not only has the price of cocaine
decreased on the street, but black market cocaine costs less than its
legitimate equivalent.

> > Remember, gun "control" only has any effect on "legitimate"
> firearms.
> > Criminals are not noted for their use of vehicles *or* guns
> registered
> > legitimately to themselves.
> The name 'Thomas Hamilton' mean anything to you? Google it
> together with 'Dunblane' and you'll find the direct cause of
> the handgun ban.

Yes Captain Sarcasmo, I am aware of Thomas Hamilton. Dunblane is utterly
irrelevant to the question of whether or not gun control works. The
Dunblane massacre was the event that caused gun control laws to be
passed, not a proof of validity. If Thomas Hamilton were contemplating
such an act now, the only difference would be that the guns would cost
him less and be less traceable, or he would have used a hammer. You
really think a deranged mind such as his would draw the distinction
between whether or not his weapons are legal on the way to a massacre?
You really think that gun control has saved any children? Children seem
to keep being abducted and killed. Does the fact that they can't
legitimately buy a firearm seem to dissuade any of the perpetrators?

> Further, slow the supply into the legal market and you don't
> have a pool of weapons that can jump over into the criminal one.

*chuckle* Come ON. Could the current pool of firearms BE any bigger?
This is why the price is dropping, because of the competition for sales
amongst firearms dealers.


> > Fact number 1) The UK implemented "gun control" some time ago. Fact
> > number 2) The UK has an escalating firearms problem.
> Fact number 3) You don't have a control against which to benchmark.

If I understand correctly your stance is "I believe that gun control is
effective. Therefore, if gun control had not been implemented, we would
have a considerably worse problem than currently". The problem is that
exactly as I have no control data, neither do you. Hence one must rely
upon logical arguments, which seem sorely lacking in the anti-firearm
lobby. I have yet to hear a logical argument proving that banning
legitimate firearms will have any real effect on gun crime with the
givens that:

1) There is a clear supply of illegal firarms
2) Illegal firearms are cheaper than legal firearms
3) Illegal firarms are less traceable than legal firarms
4) Illegal firearms are easy to acquire
5) Gun "related" deaths are increasing

> > But by disarming the population one is giving Bad Men a near 100%
> > chance that a citizen will be unarmed.
> It's near enough that anyway. And from memory, the majority
> of gun crime (ie use of guns) tends to be between armed
> parties, with high probability of non-combatants getting in

I'd agree with this. This is because Bad Men tend not to go to gun
ranges and learn how a firearm should be used safely and effectively. If
citizens were issued with conceal-carry permits on completion of
firearms certification, then surely Bad Men would no longer feel quite
so bad, and may think twice before opening fire in a place potentially
filled with skilled and armed marksmen.

> the way. More guns in environment=increased probability of
> this, *particularly* if some of those using guns in defence
> against Bad Men aren't too experienced.

I totally agree. There has to be a degree of state control. I would much
prefer it if nobody had any requirement for firearms, but unfortunately
they do.


Chris Marsh

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