[thechat] Religion - a way of life (was: what the...)

[Erik Mattheis]

Madhu -

You said a lot of great stuff there, and I do think you "understand all 
kinds of viewpoints" .... but two things we differ on are that a) You 
seem to have disdain for religion, whereas I don't...

and b) most people in the world believe in a god and to some extent 
base their actions an opinions on "divine revelation". It's extremely 
difficult to impossible to convince a person that their "divine 
revelation" is fiction, but reasonable to expect to show them that they 
are interpreting their "divine revelation" incorrectly. In other words,


On Sunday, March 30, 2003, at 11:03 AM, Madhu Menon wrote:
> 1) When you try and make rules for *everything*, you cut out any 
> possibility of individual choice in their lives. We're all unique 
> people, and drafting rules for millions of people to follow down to 
> the last detail is too restrictive. Why on earth should a religion be 
> concerned with taxes for instance? Surely your belief in God isn't 
> affected in the least by how much tax you pay.

I'm not sure if it's the same with Islam, but for some adherents  to 
various forms of Judaism, they see the strict rules of conduct as 
liberating, not restricting.

It makes the choices for them regarding worldly things: what to eat, 
when to work, how to cut their hair. They don't have to think about as 
many "worldly" things, which gives them more freedom to pursue 
"spiritual" things. So the restrictions on conduct are actually 
liberating for them. And you, yourself claim that people should be 
allowed to make choices for themselves, but exclude the choice to to 
voluntarily let an external set of rules restrict their conduct.

I mean, like I'm sure you do stuff like this yourself: I do: for 
instance:

If it's a tuesday or friday and there are dirty dishes in the sink, I 
make myself wash them, even if I would rather "choose" not to.

If I'm driving and at a bar, I don't let myself have more than one 
drink per hour or over three drinks total, even though I would 
otherwise "choose" to get wasted.

It's just discipline, and a lot of people try to discipline themselves 
according what a particular scripture says, and I can't fault them for 
that.


> 2) Most holy books (not just the Quran) were written many centuries 
> ago. It reflects societal norms at that time. The Quran was written in 
> the 7th century. 14 centuries have passed since then. [etc]

Oh, come on! Not that there aren't exceptions, but religions adjust 
themselves all the time! Why do you think ecumenical councils exist? 
(the correct answer is, "To adjust and correct doctrine")

Here is a page explaining Catholic ecumenical councils:
<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm>


> Are you saying that only the West is plagued with these problems? 
> Surely not.

Right. I'm not. But I think "think globally, act locally" is a pretty 
good thought, and I live in the West.

>> but I think it would start with something like: "There is no 'God', 
>> but there is an organizing force which humans can now not understand, 
>> but influences and maybe even defines their behavior ...."
>
> Your right to do that, and mine to disagree, which I do. :p

Maybe I didn't phrase that broadly enough. That "organizing force" 
consists of things which will eventually be scientifically describable, 
but as of now haven't been figured out yet.


<http://www.pointpresbyterian.org/archives/000026.html>
>
> I disagree with large parts of it. I'm OK with the underlying theme - 
> "why can't we all just get along?", but the implementation... well, > no.
>
> Stuff like:

Yeah, of course, I don't agree with the a priori assumption: that 
there's a human-like "god" ... but again, I'm dealing with the fact 
that many people do.

> Honestly, Erik, this didn't make me cry, but it did make me ask, "are 
> we there yet? are we there yet?"  :p

The reason it made me cry was that we aren't there yet, and I wish we 
were.

> I don't jump traffic lights.

India has traffic lights? I thought the driving rules there were "Honk 
a lot and smile and wave at other drivers. Try not to run into 
anything."

--
-/erik/

Anti-invasion activism ideas:
<http://shockingelk.com/>

If the only thing we still have to fear is fear itself, there is more 
than enough to go around.
- R.C. Longworth

More than an end to war, we want an end to the beginnings of all wars.
-Franklin Roosevelt


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