[thechat] Fish do feel pain

Andy Warwick mailing.lists at creed.co.uk
Wed May 7 10:24:25 CDT 2003


On Wednesday, May 7, 2003, at 11:49  am, rudy wrote:

> all i suggested was that people who think fish feel no pain or that 
> living
> things have no soul or spirit are so alien, so incomprehensibly 
> different,
> so bereft of compassion, so anthropomorphically self-centred, that it 
> is as
> though they are from a different planet

I suppose it also depends on what you define as 'soul' or 'spirit'. If 
you are using it a label for a certain level of awareness of one's own 
surroundings, and a measurable consciousness, then I'd agree that 
humans, cats, dogs, fish, etc. all have souls. I'd also give you a 
vague nod towards plants and insects. Where'd I'd draw the line is 
rocks and water, etc.

 From Erika's perspective, she'd draw the line a lot further along, if 
at all.

An 'alien' would perhaps draw it at people.

Where I'd disagree, is if you were using the term soul in the context 
of a spirit or ghost that inhabits our bodies and without such we are 
simply chunks of meat.

For the record, I believe there is something beyond out physical form, 
but whether that is the religious notion of a soul, or simply 
extra-dimensional 'stuff' and our physical forms are simply the bits 
that poke into this dimension, or vibrate at a level slow enough for us 
to perceive, I'm in no position to say. I'd tend to side with the 
later, as it's harder to get into wars about :)

Of course, those scientists who would use 'soul' as a label for a 
certain level of awareness of one's surroundings, other people's 
perspectives and feelings, would probably say that no, fish don't have 
souls. But that's from a very subjective perspective. The ability to 
feel pain (physical) should not be linked with such a label, IMHO, 
though pain (emotional) should.

Put simply. I believe fish feel pain. I believe fish have 
'non-material' 'souls'. I eat fish and feel no guilt about it. (I'm 
sure that if fish were much bigger, and I was much smaller, they'd eat 
me.) The natural order is we eat things to survive, and they do the 
same. I would, however, try to ensure such treatment of any animal 
destined for my table was treated well and spared as much physical and 
emotional pain as possible.

All very grey, and all points are pretty much valid, equal and 
respected.

Andy W



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