[Theforum] What do you want to do ? Faster, evolt, kill kill!

aardvark roselli at earthlink.net
Thu Apr 18 23:27:16 CDT 2002

>From: Ron Dorman <rwd at csi1st.net>
> >
> >except in discourse, perception *is* reality...
> >
> Only for the person perceiving it.  Would you like Jeffry Domers

i really thought you had heard the expression "perception is reality"... it was
just a response to your quote... quotes from thinkers are nice and all, but
never do anything for me... so i respond with my own inane quotes...

> perceptions to be your realities?  Extreme, yes, but my point is, we
> have the privilege of choice (so did Domer).  If we chose to believe
> anything we read/hear/choose without validating it's facts and
> quality, we are working under skewed perceptions instead of facts
> (reality).

while i understand why you want to qualify everything i say as flawed or
misrepresentation, or just my own imagination, there's a problem with that:

- you're ignoring my concerns and opinions -- by telling me my perceptions
are flawed and then pushing your own perceptions on me... i'm not doing the
same to you, i only correct your factual errors...

- my perceptions are based on the facts, facts i've reiterated here and
elsewhere time and time again... ask for a list, and i'll draft it up, but if you've
read anything i've posted today, you'll see that i am basing my opinions on
the facts at hand as well as the experience of how things have gone to date...

>  True defects in the function of the brain are the only exception to
> perception being a choice.  Are we mature enough to work with this
> philosophy and re-examine what we have read on these lists?

this is a "do you still beat your wife?" question... if you haven't heard of that
phrase, either, please take a moment and look it up... it's designed to elicit
one response... unfortunately, it's also an untenable response since it's

[second instance of perception quote snipped]

> >i want to contribute, but am not granted the privileges necessary...
> >i can upload browsers, but i can't admin the list, or do other keen
> >things...  i have contributed in the past, but am no longer able
> >to...
> >
> I disagree that you can no longer contribute, that is what you are
> doing with these email exchanges.  As for "admin the list", can you
> specify which list and what "admining it" might include?

my ability to do things like admin the list have been pulled (without telling me)
and i have not been granted access again after asking (requests get ignored,
and yes, i have email to back that up)...

admining the list includes catching spammers and booting them, stopping
people from forwarding the digest 6 times as an unsubscribe request,
responding to requests on aeo to add/remove people or adjust settings, etc...

i can no longer contribute in that way... you can disagree, but you'd be wrong
because, well, i can't do it...

> This is what Michele was asking for.  "other keen things" might be fun
> stuff or might be things that really need to be done.  But until we
> know what they are and why they are are being done, we can not
> organize it, develop a process for it, or grant access for it (safely
> and in good conscience) no matter who is asking.  For what it's worth,
> I have no access at all, I don't even see pending articles when I log
> in.  I believe I contribute to evolt even with this level of access.

we've written those lists up, and we've gone by established processes, and
even jumped through hoops, and still nothing...

as for knowing what things are or need to be done, this is *all* well-
documented stuff on admin, here, the wiki, numerous requests, etc...  *none*
of this is new to me, though it may be to you... that doesn't make it not

> Adrian, you have contributed very much to evolt in the past and
> continue to contribute.  Why do you say you are no longer able to do
> so?  If more access is required to contribute the way you want to, add
> it to the list Michele proposed (wherever it ends up, I know, another
> delay, but as organization and process improves it will take less
> time) we will be on a good track to where we need to go.

and that, ron, is the flaw... i've asked for access for some time, or at least an
explanation why it was pulled... i know others have as well... hell, i've asked
to be told who has what access, and for the 4th time today, the people dan
left to admin things while he's away was a surprise to *everyone* on admin,
and even some of the people granted access...

IOW, michele's list is built on another, older list, which is built on even older

you're asking me to sit back and accept a process that has so far completely
and utterly failed to address anything...

i can't do that...

i want to see things get fixed and see evolt.org responsive to its members,
and ultimately run by them -- not you, not me, not dan, not the monkey we've
had hammering out articles in martin's name (how do you think he got so

> What I mean is, the recurrance of "Dan" bashing, the recurrance of "I
> did, you did", "this was decided but never done", "well, I set this up
> for a similar purpose, use it", etc., etc., etc . . . . sorry, but I
> can't hold this in any longer; a bunch of self interest BULL SHIT!

you need to get past the dan bashing... ask *anyone* here that you think is
opposed to dan, and they can absolutely verify that i have *always* defended
him and given him the benefit of the doubt on the lists and in offline discourse
(which i also avoid, because i believe in a public forum)...  *ask*...  don't just
accept this, *ask* them all, every last one of them, because i want this put to
bed right now...

i'm not bashing dan, i *like* him, i'm glad he does what he does, but i think
the process and methods he and others use are crap... note the difference:
dan is da bomb... the process sucks...

this self-interest bull-poo-poo as you call it is in fact a history, a well-
documented history, of why we are here talking about this... what on earth do
i have to gain?  please, if it is self-interest, explain to me how i benefit?  street
cred?  my name on things?  bragging rights at the bar?  here's your other task
-- tell me *how* i benefit...  i want that killed, too, and only you can take the
initiative to do that...

please, ron, you're responding to this too emotionally, and while i don't fault
you for it, you're ascribing behaviors and motivations to me that aren't

>  Let's get past it.  If it can't put it aside, go play in another sand
> box or be quiet so those that really want to grow and improve
> evolt.org can do so.

is that a put-up or shut-up statement?

i'm putting up...  i'm putting up because i want to grow and improve evolt.org...
my history here speaks for itself, my activities, my visibility, *everything* i do
supports it...  i have been very vocal all along, and i won't stop... bozo-filter me
if you like, but i have every intention of helping evolt.org turn into something
that doesn't *need* me...

> Access priveleges, titles, responsibilities, processes are moot and
> worthless until we have the cohesiveness and cooperation we had in the
> beginning.  If your feelings are out on your sleeve and got hurt,
> sorry, that's life.  If you didn't get what you wanted, sorry that's
> life.  It should not impact or even be mentioned here or on admin.  A
> list was set up for personal messages and interaction.

we will not achieve cohesiveness until everyone can speak freely... your
comments notwithstanding, i think we all need to voice our opinions...

> >there will always be dissent... it's unfortunate we're viewing it as
> >negative... contrary viewpoints have always been our strength...
> >
> Contrary viewpoints for improvement and discussion to a solution, yes.
>  What we have experienced for the past few months is no where near
>  that
> ideal.  What we have been experiencing is power and control fights.  I
> don't understand it.  There is nothing to be gained by controlling
> evolt.org.  Control of evolt.org is in the hands of the users (should
> be).  Execution of the tasks to support that control is up to the
> volunteers on theforum, admin and thesite.  We need to create an
> organization and processes that support the execution.

- i can't fight over control and power when i don't have either...

- i don't want to control evolt.org (see long history of posts where i form
theforum, try to make admin a moot group, and generally complain that the
people with access are too closed a group and don't heed many requests or
even offer explanations)...

- we can only create the org and processes if those with the keys are willing
to implement it...

> > that's a good question... and how can we expect different results
> > if no one addresses the concerns voiced by many?
> >
> really by the many, or just the loud, never quiet few?

based on what i see on admin, the many... based on what i see here, well, no
one else is talking because we're eating all the bandwidth -- but we have to
get this out so everyone can see what's up...

> >it really isn't as directed at him as it may sound -- it's directed
> >at how we do things... if it were anyone else, i'd say the same
> >things...
> >
> I disagree Adrian.  How many times have seem similar posts from the
> same members, on simailar issues?

i don't get your point, but just by what you say, that means something isn't
happening correctly... some people feel they aren't being heard...  perhaps
that's a better way to look at it... instead of accusing people of whining,
maybe we should consider that they feel unheard?

> Yes, there will always be dissagreement.  But if everyone looks for a
> solution to the disagreement we progress.  When some disagree
> consistantly no matter what, we digress.  That is the problem.  We
> have members that are unhappy and disagree even when they get what
> they ask for.

do you qualify me as one of them?

- if yes, then bozo-filter me, i'm not stopping...

- if no, don't mention it again to me...

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