From ronwhite at members.evolt.org Fri Jun 1 07:22:48 2001 From: ronwhite at members.evolt.org (Ron White) Date: Fri Jun 1 07:22:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] anyone to test something? In-Reply-To: <3B16C02B.809F33AB@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: That's what I did. But when it errored I thought I was using the wrong one... Thanks, Ron White -----Original Message----- From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 6:06 PM To: thesite at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thesite] anyone to test something? you're supposed to use your www.evolt.org username actually.. but ya, i'll make that longer Ron White wrote: > > Also if I'm supposed to use my m.e.o address as the username it don't fit: > ronwhite at members.evolt.or was all I could get in... _______________________________________________ http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ From ronwhite at members.evolt.org Fri Jun 1 07:22:53 2001 From: ronwhite at members.evolt.org (Ron White) Date: Fri Jun 1 07:22:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] anyone to test something? In-Reply-To: <3B16C00F.BA00681A@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: Ok it works now. I've gotta remember that the dang thing is case-sensitive... Thanks, Ron White -----Original Message----- From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 6:05 PM To: thesite at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thesite] anyone to test something? oopsie, try it again :) Ron White wrote: > > On register me: A runtime Error has occurred: > Line 218 > Error:'this.email.value' is null or not an object. > > Thanks, > Ron White > > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 5:19 PM > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thesite] anyone to test something? > > heya.. if anyone has a minute, could you run by > > http://members.evolt.org/newsignup.cfm > > and fill it out using your w.e.o username and password? in the comments > field just put 'test' or something so I know its not a real application. > > hopefully this will replace the current form. it draws off the main DB > for its info now so i don't have to check that people are evolt users > first.. lemme know if any of the wording or anything is confusing or you > have suggestions.. > > rudy, i was thinking about the possibility of putting themember column > or something like that in the users field that would check people off > who've become evolt members through m.e.o - would that be fly with you? > > .djc. > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ _______________________________________________ http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Jun 1 10:23:28 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Jun 1 10:23:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] Stats for may.. Message-ID: <3B17B161.D713EAAD@starkmedia.com> Hola - The stats for may are in, and things continue to improve. Highlights: 1.8 million 'hits' 338,000 page views 11,000 page views per day 85,000 *distinct* hosts served 50GB of data transferred Google provided another 150K referers to the different evolt sites, yay! 426 WebTV requests http://browsers.evolt.org/stats/stats.may2001.html Disregard some of the 'user' reporting thats going on there.. Some of the m.e.o accounts got mixed in.. Looks like another greatly improved month! yay! .djc. From martin at easyweb.co.uk Fri Jun 1 10:34:09 2001 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Fri Jun 1 10:34:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: [Admin] Stats for may.. Message-ID: <0ec131336150161PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 fwiw, this is about 1/2 of what Jakob gets: http://www.useit.com/jakob/ He gets 9m page views a year, we get 4 (extrapolating up from the 338k last month) Cheers Martin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use Comment: Content after the signature block is *not* signed iQA/AwUBOxe1m3HoHnCoNczLEQIzRwCgn69qG5i4PQgcNY0KnMZ1RMlRPbcAoNdr XVXEAgNG8fOnFAS9NFDH51Hw =810h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From colette at wi.rr.com Fri Jun 1 16:26:32 2001 From: colette at wi.rr.com (Colette Brown) Date: Fri Jun 1 16:26:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] i'm available Message-ID: <11729369791.20010601162627@wi.rr.com> I can help on any projects, if needed. Colette From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sat Jun 2 15:56:31 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sat Jun 2 15:56:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis Message-ID: <002101c0eba6$772e5ec0$34109ad8@mef> Hey Matt... and everyone else, | AnswerThis is in place and ready to go. Matt, care to elaborate? What's in place and ready to go? Where is the question going to appear? Has the idea/concept of AnswerThis been written? Where are the possible solutions going to be entered? Will the solutions fit within the existing article structure? Who's going to review the various possible solutions based on technology used? yadda, yadda Ok, after asking several questions .. let me say this. I don't think the above is in place nor been decided upon. The most important being how to present it to site members (and list members). As I understand it, there are two very fundamental goals behind the AnswerThis project, the first being, to get some really kick-ass articles for weo, the second being to build community involvement and encourage members (site and list) to participate, using their technology of choice. Yes, we already have a really great idea for the first "problem" to be answered. And, you and I know the solution we'd present for ASP, and I see your point about not (a) writing the problem and (b) providing the solution. Now, I'll go one step further and say, shouldn't ALL of Admin be *disqualified* (for lack of a better word) from writing the solution? Doesn't this go against the second objective of the project, that being to encourage other members to participate? The way I see it, I'd like to establish a "Team of Reviewers" .. taken from Admin and thesite members. For example, Matt, Scott, Adrian for review of ASP solutions, Jeff, Joshua, Erik for CF, not sure who to suggest for PHP, Zope, etc. Depending on the question/problem, JavaScript, Jeff and who else? Then the Team of Reviewers can *expertly* review the various solutions, modify as necessary, provide constructive criticism/feedback, etc. Final, kick-ass solutions, could be presented as a whole on the weo site, much like what happened with the Breadcrumb articles, we'll end up with a series of articles, that have been peer-reviewed, in different technologies. Can we, do we want too, set up AnswerThis as its own "site"? I'm not sure if a.e.o. has officially been taken for thewife/thenag, Dan? Now, since I've been a pain in the ass, and jumped in on this project .. I know you're (Matt) leaving to go away, so, perhaps the best thing to do is bring this on the back burner until you get back. Or, if you want to assign tasks to me (or whoever else), to get the backend in place or whatever it is that's required, let me know. I don't want to rush this project .. its too good of any idea, and the objectives are really important. Let's discuss, Michele From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Sat Jun 2 18:27:22 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Sat Jun 2 18:27:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis References: <002101c0eba6$772e5ec0$34109ad8@mef> Message-ID: <00cd01c0ebbb$95ff1d70$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > From: "Michele Foster" > Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis > > Hey Matt... and everyone else, > > | AnswerThis is in place and ready to go. > > Matt, care to elaborate? No. Well, ok. > What's in place and ready to go? The category. > Where is the > question going to appear? The AnswerThis category ;-) > Has the idea/concept of AnswerThis been written? You mean, as in an explanation of what it is? No. > Where are the possible solutions going to be entered? The idea here is to get content. The solutions would be in a regular content category. Which one? Well, that would depend on the question. Where users should post solutions should be included in the problem. > Will the solutions > fit within the existing article structure? Um, I ain't gonna fool with it. We're gonna use the existing structure. If this takes off, and there's a need for it, it could be branched off into answerthis.evolt.org. But, that's way ahead and probably (IMO) not gonna happen. > Who's going to review the > various possible solutions based on technology used? Um, huh? The solutions are articles. Same process. If you're talking about deciding which article is "better", that's where users' ratings come in. Again, the solutions are articles. All rules apply. > Ok, after asking several questions .. let me say this. I don't > think the above is in place nor been decided upon. Sure it has. > The most important being how to > present it to site members (and list members). Well, promotion of it (if that's what you're talking about) is secondary to getting the article (what you're gonna promote) written. > As I understand it, there are two very fundamental goals behind the > AnswerThis project, the first being, to get some really kick-ass > articles for weo, the second being to build community involvement > and encourage members (site and list) to participate, using their > technology of choice. Yup and yup. The third is to get more "Breadcrumbs for XXXXXX" type articles, which whip ass. > Yes, we already have a really great idea for the first "problem" to > be answered. And, you and I know the solution we'd present for > ASP, and I see your point about not (a) writing the problem and (b) > providing the solution. Now, I'll go one step further and say, > shouldn't ALL of Admin be > *disqualified* (for lack of a better word) from writing the > solution? No. > Doesn't this go against the second objective of the project, that > being to encourage other members to participate? Admins are members too. If you prick an admin, does it not bleed? If... ok, I'll stop. > The way I see it, I'd like to establish a "Team of Reviewers" .. > taken from Admin and thesite members. For example, Matt, Scott, > Adrian for review of ASP solutions, Jeff, Joshua, Erik for CF, not > sure who to suggest for PHP, Zope, etc. Depending on the > question/problem, JavaScript, Jeff and who else? You could do this if you want. But, what I'm saying is... we don't have this when we approve regular articles. So, what's different now? > Then the Team of Reviewers can *expertly* review the various > solutions, modify as necessary, modify? > provide constructive criticism/feedback, etc. Final, > kick-ass solutions, could be presented as a whole on the weo site, > much like what happened with the Breadcrumb articles, we'll end up > with a series of articles, that have been peer-reviewed, in > different technologies. AFAIK, approving articles is just approving articles. If someone has an error in their logic or code, depending on what it is, we don't need to notify them. The thought here, I think, is that the community will point it out in a comment. And this goes into the whole reason we don't let people fix errors in their code after someone has pointed it out in a comment (unless the author admits the problem and writes a note in the article). The ToR aren't writing the articles, just like admins don't write the articles now. The authors write the articles. If the article is relevant, we clean up grammar and HTML and approve. If not, we reject. I don't see why we should alter that now. > Can we, do we want too, set up AnswerThis as its own "site"? Heh. I need to read the full message before I start to reply. See above. I'm not sure we'll ever need to do this unless it becomes extremely popular, which I don't think it will. Besides, this sorta contradicts the goal of the project anyways. > Now, since I've been a pain in the ass, and jumped in on this > project .. I know you're (Matt) leaving to go away, so, perhaps the > best thing to do is bring this on the back burner until you get > back. Or, if you want to assign tasks to me (or whoever else), to > get the backend in place or whatever it is that's required, let me > know. Just need the article written. I don't want to make this overly complex. > I don't want to rush this project .. its too good of any idea, and > the objectives are really important. +1 Yes, let's discuss. Feel free to disagree with me. But, I'm trying to keep this simple, keep it so it fits within our current system, and preserve the original objectives. - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOxl2W3gH0dUmEhrcEQJ7OwCfSyBthzd5EF+hu0XSv+SKt85fBQ4An3yv omHObyJZr+bRuwJYoW/yE0KH =1pNS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From martin at members.evolt.org Sat Jun 2 18:34:17 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sat Jun 2 18:34:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis Message-ID: <081293336230261PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At the risk of being obtuse, and ignorant having not read 2 weeks' worth of mail, why do we need complex categories at all? If this is true: >> Who's going to review the >> various possible solutions based on technology used? > >Um, huh? The solutions are articles. Same process. > >If you're talking about deciding which article is "better", that's >where users' ratings come in. > >Again, the solutions are articles. All rules apply. then I don't see what the benefit is of the large amounts of work it sounds like we're doing on it. Could a slightly special category like the jobs one which appears in the sidebar do it? Cheers Martin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use Comment: Content after the signature block is *not* signed iQA/AwUBOxl3+XHoHnCoNczLEQKmcwCfeyxRqTlq/VHRwrW0eQOmY1PuaTcAoNIg 9ExfLSWVV+SCkj+MQq5LZ0Yq =6U+m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)778 068 6418 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Sat Jun 2 18:36:37 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Sat Jun 2 18:36:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis References: <081293336230261PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <00f901c0ebbc$e2651bf0$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > From: "Martin" > Subject: Re: [thesite] AnswerThis > > At the risk of being obtuse, and ignorant having > not read 2 weeks' worth of mail, why do we need > complex categories at all? If this is true: ... > Could a slightly special category like the jobs one which appears > in the sidebar do it? Yeah, that's the point. We don't need complex categories. And yes, that category already exists in the database. It just ain't active yet. - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOxl4iXgH0dUmEhrcEQKp+wCffFbiZ0tSnev5+lqmNecO/9ZP7zEAoK6o R29PIC4+g2zbxlXp3EsIMSRD =67aG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sun Jun 3 00:52:29 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sun Jun 3 00:52:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis References: <002101c0eba6$772e5ec0$34109ad8@mef> <00cd01c0ebbb$95ff1d70$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> Message-ID: <002601c0ebf1$5bd1dda0$63089ad8@mef> Matt, Ok, my idea is more complex. I'll agree to simplify, and let's see how it goes, what the response is, etc. The category exists, what needs to be done? Just add it to the top navigation and also to article submission page? This category will only be available for admins to submit to (like FAQ) [for the time being]? I want to ensure that the AnswerThis! category does NOT become a depository for questions from regular site visitors. We get several of those types of "articles" and submissions via the contact us page asking for answers to a question someone has. That said, if this flies, there's no reason why others can't write a Problem, but it will need to be reviewed/submitted by an admin (or at least Admin can only set the AnswerThis category on any submission). How complex would it be to have this category also viewable on the site page (i.e. going against the FAQ and Job categories)? The front page will give it far more advertising/promotional value, specifically to site visitors. Important question ... timing ... will you have a chance to modify the above queries to implement this category before you leave? If so .... I'll write the problem .. you can review it ... no worries, I won't respond. Do we want to go so far as to provide a sample DB structure? hmm.. that brings up a point, will the possible solution be dependent on what DB is used (SQL differences)? I'm thinking it might be, so, for simplicity sake, I won't mention what DB, but will define the specific tables? Or, would you prefer I back up one step and generalize even more, thereby requiring the data structure to be a part of the solution? Your call ... (We can discuss this further, offlist.) If you don't have time to implement the above before you go .. I'll write the problem later. I would like to reiterate that I really don't think Admin should be answering .... at least not right away. Give other site/list members a chance first, if nothing, then Admin can respond if they wish. I'll write the announcement email to be sent to thelist as well .. perhaps even drop it in as an FAQ or just as an article. Laterz, Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warden, Matt" | > I don't want to rush this project .. its too good of any idea, and | > the objectives are really important. | | +1 | | | Yes, let's discuss. Feel free to disagree with me. But, I'm trying to | keep this simple, keep it so it fits within our current system, and | preserve the original objectives. From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sun Jun 3 01:34:25 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sun Jun 3 01:34:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do Message-ID: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> Hi folks, JoeTheTester has been busy .. Below are a number of changes/recommendations for improving the look/feel across all of the evolt sites. Some are simple, some may require a bit more thought/consensus. Overall objective/goal is to make it easier for someone new to Evolt.org to understand what's going on and present a uniform and consistent navigation across all of Evolt.org's web sites. Across the sites suggestion.. - title modification - change the (?) to be FAQ, not About. w.e.o. - top navigation: - Join (only display if not already logged in - current) - delete submit and contact b.e.o. - Delete Join all together - delete FAQ, submit and contact - add Directory - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. l.e.o. - Delete Join all together - delete FAQ, submit and contact - add Directory - Modify text, add links to thechat and thesite (in progress, I think - I'll check with Marlene) - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. tips - It really belongs at the top navigation, IMO. Let's leave it in existence for now, if we run out of room, we can decide what to do at that time - additional changes as indicated above for l.e.o. m.e.o. - Delete Join all together (here it is very confusing) - delete FAQ, submit and contact (Contact may be worthwhile keeping, but linking to djc's email instead of w.e.o.'s contact page??) - add Directory - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. d.e.o. - Delete Join all together - delete FAQ, submit and contact (Contact may be worthwhile keeping, but linking to Simon's email instead of w.e.o.'s contact page??) - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. - text for About and Guidelines needs to be modified (I had done this a couple of weeks ago.) - David McC., Elfur, Adrian, to verify if CSS implementation meets requirements as discussed in the past. (I think its ok ... please confirm.) t.e.o. - Whatever gets modified on w.e.o. should also be done on t.e.o. Now, with the above modifications, the top right navigation will be as follows: Join | Browsers | Lists | Tips | Members | Directory This should give us room for f.e.o. and n.e.o. *hopefully* I'll gladly help implement the above .. providing someone wants to *hold my hand* through it all, as I haven't access , much less a clue as to how the entire Evolt.org is put together. I'd like to know, I'd like to learn, I'd like to be able to help .... Anyway, that's it for me .. let's discuss. Michele (with assistance from JoeTheTester) (2:30 a.m. - not even remotely tired .. damnit!!) From martin at members.evolt.org Sun Jun 3 03:46:10 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sun Jun 3 03:46:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis Message-ID: <0ae532448080361PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Michele Foster wrote on 3/6/01 6:52 am Talking about the call for submissions category (and it should be a single category, certainly at first) >Just add it to the top navigation and also to article submission page? Yes as a dropdown ("In response to 'Breadcrumbs for CF'") >This >category will only be available for admins to submit to (like FAQ) [for the >time being]? Yes >I want to ensure that the AnswerThis! category does NOT become >a depository for questions from regular site visitors. You're absolutely right >We get several of >those types of "articles" and submissions via the contact us page asking for >answers to a question someone has. That said, if this flies, there's no >reason why others can't write a Problem, but it will need to be >reviewed/submitted by an admin (or at least Admin can only set the >AnswerThis category on any submission). Yes because we can abstract specifics and call for a more generally applicable article. >How complex would it be to have this category also viewable on the site page >(i.e. going against the FAQ and Job categories)? The front page will give >it far more advertising/promotional value, specifically to site visitors. Do we want the calls to be pushed hard to 1st time site visitors? Or would it only appear for members (logged in)? Cheers Martin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use Comment: Content after the signature block is *not* signed iQA/AwUBOxn5RHHoHnCoNczLEQJYyQCg1xbw4F4BlMPQOtMMT833XREI7uIAniRQ BXCO8luUJNOK/21k44xwCdG+ =1Pab -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)778 068 6418 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From djc at starkmedia.com Sun Jun 3 11:43:03 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Sun Jun 3 11:43:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> Message-ID: <3B1A84FD.1090002@starkmedia.com> hey mich.. thanks, i'll get to these tonite after the bucks game :) .djc. Michele Foster wrote: > Hi folks, > > JoeTheTester has been busy .. > > Below are a number of changes/recommendations for improving the look/feel > across all of the evolt sites. Some are simple, some may require a bit more > thought/consensus. Overall objective/goal is to make it easier for someone > new to Evolt.org to understand what's going on and present a uniform and > consistent navigation across all of Evolt.org's web sites. > > Across the sites suggestion.. > > - title modification - change the (?) to be FAQ, not About. > > > w.e.o. > - top navigation: > - Join (only display if not already logged in - current) > - delete submit and contact > > b.e.o. > - Delete Join all together > - delete FAQ, submit and contact > - add Directory > - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. > > l.e.o. > - Delete Join all together > - delete FAQ, submit and contact > - add Directory > - Modify text, add links to thechat and thesite (in progress, I > think - I'll check with Marlene) > - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. > > tips > - It really belongs at the top navigation, IMO. Let's leave it in > existence for now, if we run out of room, we can decide what to do at that > time > - additional changes as indicated above for l.e.o. > > m.e.o. > - Delete Join all together (here it is very confusing) > - delete FAQ, submit and contact (Contact may be worthwhile keeping, > but linking to djc's email instead of w.e.o.'s contact page??) > - add Directory > - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. > > d.e.o. > - Delete Join all together > - delete FAQ, submit and contact (Contact may be worthwhile keeping, > but linking to Simon's email instead of w.e.o.'s contact page??) > - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. > - text for About and Guidelines needs to be modified (I had done this > a couple of weeks ago.) > - David McC., Elfur, Adrian, to verify if CSS implementation meets > requirements as discussed in the past. (I think its ok ... please confirm.) > > t.e.o. > - Whatever gets modified on w.e.o. should also be done on t.e.o. > > > Now, with the above modifications, the top right navigation will be as > follows: > > Join | Browsers | Lists | Tips | Members | Directory only if not already logged in> > > This should give us room for f.e.o. and n.e.o. *hopefully* > > > I'll gladly help implement the above .. providing someone wants to *hold my > hand* through it all, as I haven't access , much less a clue as to how > the entire Evolt.org is put together. I'd like to know, I'd like to learn, > I'd like to be able to help .... > > > Anyway, that's it for me .. let's discuss. > > > Michele (with assistance from JoeTheTester) > > (2:30 a.m. - not even remotely tired .. damnit!!) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Sun Jun 3 12:07:49 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Sun Jun 3 12:07:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis References: <002101c0eba6$772e5ec0$34109ad8@mef> <00cd01c0ebbb$95ff1d70$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> <002601c0ebf1$5bd1dda0$63089ad8@mef> Message-ID: <000d01c0ec4f$c1e44cf0$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > From: "Michele Foster" > Subject: Re: [thesite] AnswerThis > ... > The category exists, what needs to be done? UPDATE categorys SET active=1 where categoryid=10047; commit; fwiw, rudy passed on what he did to create the category here: http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-April/001263.html > Just add it to the top navigation and also to article submission > page? If I understand things correctly, this should happen as soon as the above query is run (aside from query caching issues) > This > category will only be available for admins to submit to (like FAQ) > [for the time being]? Well, any user can submit an article in the FAQ category (don't think we've had one yet), but admins aren't gonna approve it. IOW, the FAQ category isn't hidden in the dropdown on the submission page for non-admins. ... > How complex would it be to have this category also viewable on the > site page (i.e. going against the FAQ and Job categories)? They are displayed like that by default. Extra stuff would have to be added into queries to get them to NOT show up on the frontpage, etc. > Important question ... timing ... will you have a chance to modify > the above queries to implement this category before you leave? I can't. I don't have access to the live DB. Rudy does. Dan does. Dean does. Hopefully Dex doesn't *duck* ...just kiddin' texy. ... > I'll write the problem .. you can review it ... no worries, I won't > respond. Do we want to go so far as to provide a sample DB > structure? ... I'll get back to you on this stuff offlist. > If you don't have time to implement the above before you go .. Will only take two seconds. If one of the people with access doesn't speak up, I'll just hit dan to run the query. But... I don't want an empty category on the site. If you want some help on the "what is AnswerThis?" article, you got it. More offlist... > I would like to reiterate that I really don't think Admin should be > answering .... at least not right away. Give other site/list > members a chance first, if nothing, then Admin can respond if they > wish. I wouldn't respond until I came back and no one wrote a solution about data shaping. For some reason, not too many people seem to know about it, let alone use it. Seriously, I was quite shocked when you showed me your code and it had data shaping SQL in it (you rule)! > I'll write the announcement email to be sent to thelist as well .. > perhaps even drop it in as an FAQ or just as an article. Yeah, again, more offlist, but... If you look WAYYYYYYY back at the first article in each category, you'll see an explanation of the category from an admin. Probably still a good idea to go that route, as it will serve as a placeholder until we have the problem ready to go. Zoooo000000oooooooommmmmmz0rz! - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOxpu8ngH0dUmEhrcEQKSGwCeOCUUXJeqPUKXm2vnRxrwFYxBNfUAoI0A TBXqUpJSB4wgtFbPMpDKNBHV =8pey -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From r937 at interlog.com Sun Jun 3 12:21:54 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Sun Jun 3 12:21:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis Message-ID: <01c0ec51$b4267820$7348149a@rudy> > Will only take two seconds. If one of the people with > access doesn't speak up... huh? activate the AnswerThis category? sure, i can do that -- are we ready for it? sorry, i haven't paid very close attention to the last few posts on this thread take care, matt, have a nice holiday.... rudy p.s. this is for dan -- GO BUCKS!! boy did they ever handle themselves well the other night i thought for sure they were going to blow the lead in the 4th now let's see how they do in a game 7 hostile crowd situation... From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Sun Jun 3 12:26:20 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Sun Jun 3 12:26:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> Message-ID: <003101c0ec52$5f5519e0$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Since dan didn't respond to ya... *duck* > From: "Michele Foster" > Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do > > Hi folks, Hello Michele and Mr. Tester. ... > - title modification - change the (?) to be FAQ, not About. +1 > w.e.o. ... > b.e.o. ... > l.e.o. ... > tips ... > m.e.o. ... > d.e.o. ... > t.e.o. ... > > Join | Browsers | Lists | Tips | Members | Directory on weo and only if not already logged in> > > This should give us room for f.e.o. and n.e.o. *hopefully* Nice. One of these days, and I think it'll be evolt3.0 when it happens, we need to have common functions out of specific sites. The problem is that weo was *the* site before and all the functionality is in there. I'm talking about joining evolt, contacting admins, maybe submitting articles (though that would get a bit messy having conditional datasources), the about page, the evolt faq category, etc. Right now, all this is included in the weo code, so when I take that code to feo, all this stuff is copied. Version control issues, plus there's really no reason why we can't use just one of each of these (especially with the "passport" stuff that is being worked on). With evolt3.0, we need a common.evolt.org or something, which stores all this stuff. And the index page could be a list of our subsites. Ok, that's enough. Basically, you rock, Michele. > I'll gladly help implement the above .. providing someone wants to > *hold my hand* through it all, as I haven't access , much less > a clue as to how the entire Evolt.org is put together. I'd like to > know, I'd like to learn, I'd like to be able to help .... It's pretty easy to understand once you get the naming conventions down. I'll talk to you over ICQ. Did I mention you rock? - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOxpzVXgH0dUmEhrcEQIGEQCdGFYOyGixB7cket7R9hODibkn2vEAni1D Kle+rnRryiYD4BjkoyNrwf3s =9JN2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Sun Jun 3 12:33:09 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Sun Jun 3 12:33:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis References: <01c0ec51$b4267820$7348149a@rudy> Message-ID: <003a01c0ec53$5572c700$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > From: "rudy" > Subject: Re: [thesite] AnswerThis > > > Will only take two seconds. If one of the people with > > access doesn't speak up... > > huh? activate the AnswerThis category? > > sure, i can do that -- are we ready for it? Not yet. Mishka'll shoot another email to thesite when the "what's this category for?" article is ready. Then, you activate the category and I'll update that article so it's in the AnswerThis category (unless you wanna change it's category from SQL Plus). Then approve the article. > sorry, i haven't paid very close attention to the last few posts on > this thread It's ok. I'm busy too. > take care, matt, have a nice holiday.... Holiday? Heh. Yeah, maybe in 8 days. Until then I'm running around like a madman trying to pack my stuff for TheMove. We have to be out of our current house the DAY after I come back from vacation. That means: 1. I have to have everything packed and ready to go before I leave. 2. I get to move everything after coming back from a 5hr time difference. Gonna be rough. Thanks though. Is this thechat? ;-) - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOxp08ngH0dUmEhrcEQIwSQCgzOnRAMc9u3rOhRJoIObNQORsTCAAnAjP P6zLRkDLTgs9rrflnsugf2nF =nrOR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sun Jun 3 12:50:19 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sun Jun 3 12:50:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] Testing: Submit an Article Message-ID: <001201c0ec55$a6b61520$4d149ad8@mef> Hi Folks .... JoeTheTester has been busy trying to submit an article to the Evolt site. But, he's having some problems.... Here's the message he keeps getting: error unauthorized access You are not authorized to edit the article selected. Now, I'm wondering if there's a cookie or something already set on my machine from being logged in as my own ID. That might explain the problem. ?? Login as Joe, click Submit (either top or sidebar), and the error appears. Both IE and NS are "passing" two different URL schemes, http://www.evolt.org/article/index.html?action=submit&cfid=486712&cftoken=40 577226 (IE) http://evolt.org/article/index.html?action=submit&cfid=378453&cftoken=397358 8 (NS) I've tried to log in as JoeTheTester more than once .. and rebooted, to see if it was a problem on my end. No matter, JoeTheTester just can't seem to submit a new article. (No problems with my own ID though.) If anyone wants to try to duplicate the scenario, login is Joethetester, pw is michele Now, I did another test, logged in as my own ID and I get the same URL scheme as listed above. Click on Submit and it works fine. Then I was checking to see if Joethetester exists within the drop down author menu.. and I can't find him in there. So, ummm.. is that the problem? And, if so, why isn't Joethetester in there? He exists as a user, when I do a search for him. *The confused one* Michele From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sun Jun 3 12:56:44 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sun Jun 3 12:56:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis References: <002101c0eba6$772e5ec0$34109ad8@mef> <00cd01c0ebbb$95ff1d70$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> <002601c0ebf1$5bd1dda0$63089ad8@mef> <000d01c0ec4f$c1e44cf0$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> Message-ID: <001b01c0ec56$8bb659a0$4d149ad8@mef> Matt ..... Ok, sounds good to me .. briefly read your offlist message too .. will work on it tonight. Are you sure FAQ exists as a submission category for non-admins? (Joethetester can't get in at all to confirm.) Laterz, Michele From jeff at members.evolt.org Sun Jun 3 14:30:36 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (jeff) Date: Sun Jun 3 14:30:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] Testing: Submit an Article In-Reply-To: <001201c0ec55$a6b61520$4d149ad8@mef> Message-ID: michele, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Michele Foster : : JoeTheTester has been busy trying to submit : an article to the Evolt site. But, he's : having some problems.... Here's the message : he keeps getting: : : error unauthorized access : You are not authorized to edit the article : selected. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ logged in as joethetester and got the same error when trying to submit. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : Now, I'm wondering if there's a cookie or : something already set on my machine from : being logged in as my own ID. That might : explain the problem. ?? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ nope, if you logout it blasts away any cookies you might have had related to your login. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : Both IE and NS are "passing" two different URL schemes, : : http://www.evolt.org/article/index.html?action=submit&cfid=486712&cftoken=40 577226 (IE) : http://evolt.org/article/index.html?action=submit&cfid=378453&cftoken=397358 8 (NS) :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ how are either of these different, aside from the session vars being different (for obvious reasons)? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : Then I was checking to see if Joethetester : exists within the drop down author menu.. : and I can't find him in there. So, ummm.. : is that the problem? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ nope, he's there, you just gotta look for him. the problem as far as i can tell -- based on the logic that gives the "unauthorized access error" is that joe isn't getting a session id set properly when he logs in. how/why that's happening i'm not sure. fwiw, test users and test articles should be done on test.evolt.org and not thesite. thanks, .jeff name://jeff.howden game://web.development http://www.evolt.org/ mailto:jeff at members.evolt.org From jeff at members.evolt.org Sun Jun 3 14:31:41 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (jeff) Date: Sun Jun 3 14:31:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis In-Reply-To: <001b01c0ec56$8bb659a0$4d149ad8@mef> Message-ID: michele, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Michele Foster : : Are you sure FAQ exists as a submission : category for non-admins? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ yes, it does. there isn't any logic in place to restrict access to that category in the submission process. in reality, there really isn't any reason to restrict access to just admins. thanks, .jeff name://jeff.howden game://web.development http://www.evolt.org/ mailto:jeff at members.evolt.org From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sun Jun 3 15:19:52 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sun Jun 3 15:19:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] Testing: Submit an Article References: Message-ID: <005201c0ec6a$88bf49a0$4d149ad8@mef> Hey Jeff, ----- Original Message ----- From: "jeff" | michele, | | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | : From: Michele Foster | : | : JoeTheTester has been busy trying to submit | : an article to the Evolt site. But, he's | : having some problems.... Here's the message | : he keeps getting: | : | : error unauthorized access | : You are not authorized to edit the article | : selected. | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | logged in as joethetester and got the same error when trying to submit. Oddly enough, I just tried with a test ID Matt has, and it worked fine. No error. (juser/juser) | | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | : Now, I'm wondering if there's a cookie or | : something already set on my machine from | : being logged in as my own ID. That might | : explain the problem. ?? | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | nope, if you logout it blasts away any cookies you might have had related to | your login. Ok .. I thought so, was wondering as it seemed to think I was trying to "Edit" an article, which I may have been doing when logged in as myself. | | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | : Both IE and NS are "passing" two different URL schemes, | : | : | http://www.evolt.org/article/index.html?action=submit&cfid=486712&cftoken=40 | 577226 (IE) | : | http://evolt.org/article/index.html?action=submit&cfid=378453&cftoken=397358 | 8 (NS) | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | how are either of these different, aside from the session vars being | different (for obvious reasons)? They are the same cfid and cftoken (unique within each browser) regardless of which user I am. | | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | : Then I was checking to see if Joethetester | : exists within the drop down author menu.. | : and I can't find him in there. So, ummm.. | : is that the problem? | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | nope, he's there, you just gotta look for him. Yeah, I found it .. sorry. | | the problem as far as i can tell -- based on the logic that gives the | "unauthorized access error" is that joe isn't getting a session id set | properly when he logs in. how/why that's happening i'm not sure. Ok, so this we need to resolve then. Any chance its Joe's priv level? The juser ID was created back in april (19th), Joethetester I created last week. | | fwiw, test users and test articles should be done on test.evolt.org and not | thesite. Now, lets see this scenario .. I re-created Joethetester on t.e.o. .. then I clicked to submit and all worked fine. Then I logged out, logged back in, click submit and end up with the same error as above. And, yes, I will agree testing should be done on t.e.o. I'm only using Joethetester as a login so that I can see how things work, outside of Admin PRIV status. I'm working on a new FAQ ... and as such looking at the entire evolt.org sites from a "new user's" perspective. When I'm done with Joe, I'll ask that he be deleted. Anyway, I have no clue what to suggest wrt the error above. Michele From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Jun 4 17:43:31 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Jun 4 17:43:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> Message-ID: <3B1C2B01.3030307@starkmedia.com> Michele Foster wrote: > - title modification - change the (?) to be FAQ, not About. got it.. also added the title attribute to the tag for all three images.. > > w.e.o. > - top navigation: > - Join (only display if not already logged in - current) > - delete submit and contact done on t.e.o, move in a bit > b.e.o. > - Delete Join all together > - delete FAQ, submit and contact > - add Directory > - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. all good, what do you mean by keeping the black consistant though? > l.e.o. > - Delete Join all together > - delete FAQ, submit and contact > - add Directory > - Modify text, add links to thechat and thesite (in progress, I > think - I'll check with Marlene) > - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. all done except last two.. i have to modify shit on the signup page, since that is a different beast > m.e.o. > - Delete Join all together (here it is very confusing) > - delete FAQ, submit and contact (Contact may be worthwhile keeping, > but linking to djc's email instead of w.e.o.'s contact page??) > - add Directory > - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. i need to work on this, changing the flow of this site ATM.. > d.e.o. > - Delete Join all together > - delete FAQ, submit and contact (Contact may be worthwhile keeping, > but linking to Simon's email instead of w.e.o.'s contact page??) > - top and bottom BLACK consistent with w.e.o. > - text for About and Guidelines needs to be modified (I had done this > a couple of weeks ago.) get to this tomorrow.. simon, whats the word on the changes mich suggested on the about and guidelines pages? > I'll gladly help implement the above .. providing someone wants to *hold my > hand* through it all, as I haven't access , much less a clue as to how > the entire Evolt.org is put together. I'd like to know, I'd like to learn, > I'd like to be able to help .... mich, get ahold of me on ICQ and i'll shoot you the details for t.e.o to start playing with the code.. again, thanks a bundle for putting together lists like this, helps out in a HUGE way :) .djc. From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Jun 4 19:04:36 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Jun 4 19:04:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> <3B1C2B01.3030307@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <01ff01c0ed53$24e17e00$8b079ad8@mef> Dan.... As discussed .. (1) Drop down form: teo/weo:
leo: (2) TOP NAV.... underneath the list of categories in the drop down weo: leo: Just the spacer image is missing from the other sites (3) Footer, Copy from comment "Start Footer Table" to end comment, from weo/teo to leo, etc. Michele From ppxsjc1 at unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk Tue Jun 5 04:11:59 2001 From: ppxsjc1 at unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk (Simon Coggins) Date: Tue Jun 5 04:11:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do In-Reply-To: <3B1C2B01.3030307@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > get to this tomorrow.. simon, whats the word on the changes mich > suggested on the about and guidelines pages? I've made the changes she suggested on my test machine at home but I haven't uploaded yet as I've been fiddling with a few other things at the same time. Should be able to get it done this evening. Simon From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 09:09:03 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 09:09:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: Message-ID: <3B1CE5E8.DED7B912@starkmedia.com> rock. Thanks! (oy, i'm starting to sound like sgd ;) .djc. Simon Coggins wrote: > > > get to this tomorrow.. simon, whats the word on the changes mich > > suggested on the about and guidelines pages? > > I've made the changes she suggested on my test machine at home but I > haven't uploaded yet as I've been fiddling with a few other things at the > same time. Should be able to get it done this evening. > > Simon > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ From sgd at ti3.com Tue Jun 5 10:19:38 2001 From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter) Date: Tue Jun 5 10:19:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB3211172492F01@gate.ti3.com> \/\/|-|0 0\/\/n5 \/\/|-|0 ??? (wow, that's horrible) > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel J. Cody [mailto:djc at starkmedia.com] > > rock. Thanks! > > (oy, i'm starting to sound like sgd ;) > From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 11:59:49 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 11:59:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> <3B1C2B01.3030307@starkmedia.com> <01ff01c0ed53$24e17e00$8b079ad8@mef> Message-ID: <3B1D0DF0.4700D598@starkmedia.com> ok, beo, leo, and meo are all pulling off the same two template pages for their headers and footers.. one thing i'm noticing though is a little line between the tab image and the rest of the black nav.. maybe its just ns4 but it started doing that when i made it so they're all pulling off a single include.. anyways.. next up? :) .djc. Michele Foster wrote: > (1) Drop down form: > > teo/weo: > > > leo: > ok, good to go > (2) TOP NAV.... > type="submit" value="Go" accesskey="g" tabindex="4" class="tabMenu"> fixed.. > > (3) Footer, > > Copy from comment "Start Footer Table" to end comment, from weo/teo to leo, > etc. fixed. From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Jun 5 13:04:25 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Jun 5 13:04:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> <3B1C2B01.3030307@starkmedia.com> <01ff01c0ed53$24e17e00$8b079ad8@mef> <3B1D0DF0.4700D598@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <002801c0edea$01498720$42109ad8@mef> Hey Dan, In leo template, try adding a bgcolor, from leo: Home weo: Home in leo, can you also delete this extra image please, right after the drop down select menu after the
replace with: Let me know if this works. There are actually several minor inconsistencies between the two files. :( .. Mainly with respect to td widths. When someone more intimate with the HTML has some time, they can compare the files to make them the same. Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" | ok, beo, leo, and meo are all pulling off the same two template pages | for their headers and footers.. one thing i'm noticing though is a | little line between the tab image and the rest of the black nav.. maybe | its just ns4 but it started doing that when i made it so they're all | pulling off a single include.. | | anyways.. next up? :) umm.. you *really* want me to answer that ?? From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 13:23:15 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 13:23:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> <3B1C2B01.3030307@starkmedia.com> <01ff01c0ed53$24e17e00$8b079ad8@mef> <3B1D0DF0.4700D598@starkmedia.com> <002801c0edea$01498720$42109ad8@mef> Message-ID: <3B1D217B.54A71233@starkmedia.com> Michele Foster wrote: > In leo template, try adding a bgcolor, done, fixed the prob, yay! > in leo, can you also delete this extra image please, done > Let me know if this works. There are actually several minor inconsistencies > between the two files. :( .. Mainly with respect to td widths. When someone > more intimate with the HTML has some time, they can compare the files to > make them the same. k.. david was gone for the weekend camping so we may have to wait till he gets back to get to that unless someone else pipes up - sorry i'm such an idiot about HTML and stuff or else i'd help out :) also, you may notice that all the m.e.o pages are updated. http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist is the only one i need to update now.. also, i changed the place they're grabbing images from now too.. before, b.e.o was pulling all the images from w.e.o while l.e.o and m.e.o were pulling from seperate directories in their own branches.. now i have all of them pulling images off http://leo.evolt.org/images for consistancy and to lessen the amount of referer's that w.e.o gets from b.e.o(5 per page view cus images) oh yippie, we're finally getting all standardized :) thanks again.. anything else I should be looking into from your(or anyone elses) POV? .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 13:37:53 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 13:37:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] FYI, change to m.e.o Message-ID: <3B1D24E6.57386D68@starkmedia.com> As discussed on thesite last week, i've updated the mechanism for applying for a new account on m.e.o - now it queries the evolt DB to check that the applicant is an evolt user before it gets to me, rather than me manually checking if people were in the DB first.. it also lets me know how long they've been an evolt member. http://members.evolt.org/signup.cfm (if you try it out, just puta 'test' or something in the textarea comments) next step is having it check to see whether the evolt.org cookie is set and if so, just put their username in there automagically like.. this will also tie into the new login.evolt.org service i mentioned last week that is still in the works.. god i love having the DB back on the same network as everything else :) .djc. From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Jun 5 13:45:26 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Jun 5 13:45:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> <3B1C2B01.3030307@starkmedia.com> <01ff01c0ed53$24e17e00$8b079ad8@mef> <3B1D0DF0.4700D598@starkmedia.com> <002801c0edea$01498720$42109ad8@mef> <3B1D217B.54A71233@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <004501c0edef$bae04340$42109ad8@mef> Dan, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" | | Michele Foster wrote: | | > In leo template, try adding a bgcolor, | | done, fixed the prob, yay! Yup, looks good here too .. | | > in leo, can you also delete this extra image please, | | done hmm.. ok, that made it better .. there's still a small glitch on leo in NS .. I can't find it tho .. Can deo call the same template even though its in php? If not, I'll prepare a summary for Simon to make corrections. feo should be ok to use the template I think? | | > Let me know if this works. There are actually several minor inconsistencies | > between the two files. :( .. Mainly with respect to td widths. When someone | > more intimate with the HTML has some time, they can compare the files to | > make them the same. | | k.. david was gone for the weekend camping so we may have to wait till | he gets back to get to that unless someone else pipes up - sorry i'm | such an idiot about HTML and stuff or else i'd help out :) That's great, I'm sure David will find many additional changes when he has a chance. It should, however, be a reminder to *everyone* that if they make changes on teo or weo, specifically to the navigation, top and bottom, those changes should be carried over to the templates. Oh well, we'll get our ducks in a row as time goes on :) | | also, you may notice that all the m.e.o pages are updated. | http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thelist is the only one i need | to update now.. That's great ... meo What changes are you making to that page of leo? On the main leo page, can ya add links to thechat and thesite too? | | also, i changed the place they're grabbing images from now too.. before, | b.e.o was pulling all the images from w.e.o while l.e.o and m.e.o were | pulling from seperate directories in their own branches.. now i have all | of them pulling images off http://leo.evolt.org/images for consistancy | and to lessen the amount of referer's that w.e.o gets from b.e.o(5 per | page view cus images) That's great .. you may want to update the link on meo to the evolt images to the FAQ article, then there's no need to maintain those two sets of images on both boxes. | | oh yippie, we're finally getting all standardized :) | | thanks again.. anything else I should be looking into from your(or | anyone elses) POV? Oh, I'm sure I'll think of something .... M From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 13:56:42 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 13:56:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> <3B1C2B01.3030307@starkmedia.com> <01ff01c0ed53$24e17e00$8b079ad8@mef> <3B1D0DF0.4700D598@starkmedia.com> <002801c0edea$01498720$42109ad8@mef> <3B1D217B.54A71233@starkmedia.com> <004501c0edef$bae04340$42109ad8@mef> Message-ID: <3B1D2952.F1624B1A@starkmedia.com> Michele Foster wrote: > hmm.. ok, that made it better .. there's still a small glitch on leo in NS > .. I can't find it tho .. were you talking about that little blank image in the bottom left hand corner? i got that just now.. bad call to an image that i missed.. > Can deo call the same template even though its in php? If not, I'll prepare > a summary for Simon to make corrections. feo should be ok to use the > template I think? yup, its straight HTML so anyone can include it.. > What changes are you making to that page of leo? On the main leo page, can > ya add links to thechat and thesite too? did you or 'Nuh wanna gimme some copy or anything or should I just add links? > | > | also, i changed the place they're grabbing images from now too.. before, > | b.e.o was pulling all the images from w.e.o while l.e.o and m.e.o were > | pulling from seperate directories in their own branches.. now i have all > | of them pulling images off http://leo.evolt.org/images for consistancy > | and to lessen the amount of referer's that w.e.o gets from b.e.o(5 per > | page view cus images) > > That's great .. you may want to update the link on meo to the evolt images > to the FAQ article, then there's no need to maintain those two sets of > images on both boxes. good call.. done la la la.. call me mr motivated today or something :) .djc. From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Jun 5 14:09:13 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Jun 5 14:09:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis References: <0ae532448080361PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <006801c0edf3$0ed2b660$42109ad8@mef> Martin, I'm just re-reading the AnswerThis threads .. I'm not too sure what you are talking about here. Care to elaborate? Specifically, this line "Yes as a dropdown ("In response to 'Breadcrumbs for CF'")" As I understand it, AnswerThis will appear as a unique drop down item. Articles (responses) to AnswerThis problems will appear in whatever category they belong in. Probably and/or to start... depending on the actual problem. I'm just writing up the first Problem, and will request that responses get posted to . Further, you go on to ask if this category should only be viewable to members already logged in. Was this decided? Matt, Jeff? Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin" | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- | Hash: SHA1 | | Michele Foster wrote on 3/6/01 6:52 am | | Talking about the call for submissions category (and it should | be a single category, certainly at first) | | >Just add it to the top navigation and also to article submission page? | | Yes as a dropdown ("In response to 'Breadcrumbs for CF'") | | >How complex would it be to have this category also viewable on the site page | >(i.e. going against the FAQ and Job categories)? The front page will give | >it far more advertising/promotional value, specifically to site visitors. | | Do we want the calls to be pushed hard to 1st time site visitors? Or would | it only appear for members (logged in)? | | Cheers | Martin From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Jun 5 14:12:37 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Jun 5 14:12:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> <3B1C2B01.3030307@starkmedia.com> <01ff01c0ed53$24e17e00$8b079ad8@mef> <3B1D0DF0.4700D598@starkmedia.com> <002801c0edea$01498720$42109ad8@mef> <3B1D217B.54A71233@starkmedia.com> <004501c0edef$bae04340$42109 <3B1D2952.F1624B1A@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <006b01c0edf3$89095560$42109ad8@mef> Dan, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" | | Michele Foster wrote: | | > hmm.. ok, that made it better .. there's still a small glitch on leo in NS | > .. I can't find it tho .. | | were you talking about that little blank image in the bottom left hand | corner? i got that just now.. bad call to an image that i missed.. Naw, ya sneak .. caught ya fixed that as I was looking at it.. LOL Here's a screen cap .. it's most noticeable in LEO on NS .. no clue what's causing it tho. http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/nscap.jpg *shrug* | | > Can deo call the same template even though its in php? If not, I'll prepare | > a summary for Simon to make corrections. feo should be ok to use the | > template I think? | | yup, its straight HTML so anyone can include it.. Great .... YIPPEE in fact .. :) | | > What changes are you making to that page of leo? On the main leo page, can | > ya add links to thechat and thesite too? | | did you or 'Nuh wanna gimme some copy or anything or should I just add | links? No time here to write that .. working on AnswerThis ATM .. then I gotta get back to my taxes. :( Check with Marlene. | | la la la.. call me mr motivated today or something :) *or something* *ducks* Michele From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Tue Jun 5 14:50:42 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Jun 5 14:50:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis References: <0ae532448080361PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> <006801c0edf3$0ed2b660$42109ad8@mef> Message-ID: <006701c0edf8$da3c9690$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > From: "Michele Foster" > Subject: Re: [thesite] AnswerThis > ... > Further, you go on to ask if this category should only be viewable > to members already logged in. Was this decided? Matt, Jeff? When a related issue came up before concerning adding more where clauses with category IDs, rudy and jeff both seemed to agree that it was getting out of hand. I've since secretly joined them (but don't tell anyone). I'm not sure why we would hide this category to non-members anyways. I mean, if anything, if they see a problem they think they can tackle, they'll join in order to post the solution, eh? - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOx04HngH0dUmEhrcEQJi7QCg3UUPuvMkaGQqqZznVL7VJj0XpuYAoJJt D16EsxuK6pCi+nuwJrluCajG =hNXn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Jun 5 14:58:23 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Jun 5 14:58:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis References: <0ae532448080361PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> <006801c0edf3$0ed2b660$42109ad8@mef> <006701c0edf8$da3c9690$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> Message-ID: <00cb01c0edf9$ecf51c20$42109ad8@mef> Matt, Sounds great to me .... now, since I have your attention ... will AnswerThis articles appear on the home page like *most* articles? Or no, like FAQ and Jobs? [ I just want to make sure when Rudy sets the cat to active, we all know what's going on ] Will send ya the text tonight .. working on it now .. albeit a bit slowly. M ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warden, Matt" | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- | Hash: SHA1 | | > From: "Michele Foster" | > Subject: Re: [thesite] AnswerThis | > | ... | > Further, you go on to ask if this category should only be viewable | > to members already logged in. Was this decided? Matt, Jeff? | | When a related issue came up before concerning adding more where | clauses with category IDs, rudy and jeff both seemed to agree that it | was getting out of hand. I've since secretly joined them (but don't | tell anyone). | | I'm not sure why we would hide this category to non-members anyways. | I mean, if anything, if they see a problem they think they can | tackle, they'll join in order to post the solution, eh? From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Tue Jun 5 15:15:48 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Jun 5 15:15:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis References: <0ae532448080361PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> <006801c0edf3$0ed2b660$42109ad8@mef> <006701c0edf8$da3c9690$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> <00cb01c0edf9$ecf51c20$42109ad8@mef> Message-ID: <008201c0edfc$67fab900$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > From: "Michele Foster" > Subject: Re: [thesite] AnswerThis > ... > now, since I have your attention Sorry. I'm still trying to read thesite mail and check the admin archives if I can, but, ya know... shit happens. > ... will > AnswerThis articles appear on the home page like *most* articles? Yeah. THis is actually the related issue I talked about in my last email. > Will send ya the text tonight .. working on it now .. albeit a bit > slowly. It's all good. Did that rough text I sent ya help *any*? I mean, don't go crazy with it. Just "this is AnswerThis and this is what it's for" kinda thing. If you go over three paragraphs, you're nuts =) Thanks Michele. You're kicking ass. - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOx0+EngH0dUmEhrcEQL3FACeInpW9IAjg3s7j7rcW13PxHm5URsAmwc7 A6kw1cdiKorQgd3lhrju0zgZ =sA2D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 15:53:51 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 15:53:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] high level cookie question.. Message-ID: <3B1D44C9.A677DD89@starkmedia.com> ok, i'm just getting into cookies and wanted to throw this question out there to those of you who are smarter than I in that dept. basically, how bad(unsafe and all that good stuff) is it to store user information in a cookie once they're logged in? can one easily modify their cookie to pretend to be me? is readinga cookie a good enough answer to authentication?(we're doing it now..) just high level for now i guess.. any thoughts? From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Tue Jun 5 16:04:52 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Jun 5 16:04:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] high level cookie question.. References: <3B1D44C9.A677DD89@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <00a201c0ee03$41bd4710$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > Subject: [thesite] high level cookie question.. > > ok, i'm just getting into cookies and wanted to throw this question > out there to those of you who are smarter than I in that dept. > > basically, how bad(unsafe and all that good stuff) is it to store > user information in a cookie once they're logged in? can one easily > modify their cookie to pretend to be me? is readinga cookie a good > enough answer to authentication?(we're doing it now..) It depends, bro. I mean, if you're just reading a userid out of a cookie, gimme five minutes to whip up a PurlSkript and do a bunch of mean stuff on thesite with your god status. But, if I remember correctly (becuase I'm a nut who surfs with a browser that prompts me with whether to accept or reject every cookie), there's some whacked hash that is stored in the cookie now. I just about always store username and password info in session cookies, rather than the userid or a true/false isLoggedIn type of thing. Then I reverify that they exist in the DB with each page that requires a login. But, these are like 99.99% intranet management systems for a public internet site, so extra queries aren't all that much of a concern when only 20-25 users will be on the system each day. But, the good thing about session cookies is that they aren't (supposed to be) stored on the client computer. So, really the only possible security issue is if Joe Schmo creates a cookie (as a txt file or in cookies.txt depending on the browser, or in a perlscript) and guesses the name of the cookies and also the username and password. And, if he can do that, he can just log into the damn site anyways. That kinda what you're lookin for? - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOx1Jk3gH0dUmEhrcEQILBACdFuRRLTk3KjJfKZCWdCVGR8X2H2sAoKLv cm8jo9v2zYZTzmfUVvMepcnK =NAo0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 16:27:22 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 16:27:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: <003001c0ebf7$3ab27fc0$63089ad8@mef> <3B1C2B01.3030307@starkmedia.com> <01ff01c0ed53$24e17e00$8b079ad8@mef> <3B1D0DF0.4700D598@starkmedia.com> <002801c0edea$01498720$42109ad8@mef> <3B1D217B.54A71233@starkmedia.com> <004501c0edef$bae04340$42109 <3B1D2952.F1624B1A@starkmedia.com> <006b01c0edf3$89095560$42109ad8@mef> Message-ID: <3B1D4CA4.3D9792E6@starkmedia.com> hrmm.. we'll have to wait for david on that me thinks Michele Foster wrote: > Naw, ya sneak .. caught ya fixed that as I was looking at it.. LOL > > Here's a screen cap .. it's most noticeable in LEO on NS .. no clue what's > causing it tho. > > http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/nscap.jpg > > *shrug* From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 5 16:28:22 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jun 5 16:28:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] high level cookie question.. In-Reply-To: <00a201c0ee03$41bd4710$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> Message-ID: matt, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Warden, Matt : : But, the good thing about session cookies : is that they aren't (supposed to be) stored : on the client computer. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ wanna guess again? *grin* you better take a closer look at the cookie prompts when you're surfing. a normal cookie has an expiration date and has this warning in the prompt: "To provide a more personalized browsing experience, will you allow this Web site to temporarily save a small file (call a cookie) on your computer? The file can only be used by this Web site." a session cookie has an expiration value of "End of Session" and has this warning in the prompt: "To provide a more personalized browsing experience, will you allow this Web site to temporarily save a small file (call a cookie) on your computer? When you exit the Web site, the file is removed." they may look the same at a glance, but they're not. while your browser window is open they're treated exactly the same too -- they're stored as a text file on your computer. the difference is that one of them (the session cookie) is deleted when you close the browser window and the other is not. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 16:29:57 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 16:29:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] high level cookie question.. References: <3B1D44C9.A677DD89@starkmedia.com> <00a201c0ee03$41bd4710$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> Message-ID: <3B1D4D3E.239CFC1A@starkmedia.com> ok, so lets say I hash the username then store the hash in the cookie. then lets say when i want someone to read that cookie, i tell them how i hashed it or whatever. is that better? as for sessions, it won't work with that I'm trying to do AFAIK. how to you maintain a session across different machines that have different hostnames that are written in different languages? not that it wouldn't rule, but jeff and i were chatting about it on the phone and didn't think it could be done very easily.. unless someone else hasa better idea or some insight that we didnt thanks for the reply though :) .djc. "Warden, Matt" wrote: > I mean, if you're just reading a userid out of a cookie, gimme five > minutes to whip up a PurlSkript and do a bunch of mean stuff on > thesite with your god status. > > But, if I remember correctly (becuase I'm a nut who surfs with a > browser that prompts me with whether to accept or reject every > cookie), there's some whacked hash that is stored in the cookie now. > > I just about always store username and password info in session > cookies, rather than the userid or a true/false isLoggedIn type of > thing. Then I reverify that they exist in the DB with each page that > requires a login. But, these are like 99.99% intranet management > systems for a public internet site, so extra queries aren't all that > much of a concern when only 20-25 users will be on the system each > day. > > But, the good thing about session cookies is that they aren't > (supposed to be) stored on the client computer. So, really the only > possible security issue is if Joe Schmo creates a cookie (as a txt > file or in cookies.txt depending on the browser, or in a perlscript) > and guesses the name of the cookies and also the username and > password. And, if he can do that, he can just log into the damn site > anyways. From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Tue Jun 5 16:42:22 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Jun 5 16:42:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] high level cookie question.. References: Message-ID: <00ba01c0ee08$7f022550$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > From: ".jeff" > Subject: RE: [thesite] high level cookie question.. > ... > "To provide a more personalized browsing > experience, will you allow this Web site > to temporarily save a small file (call a > cookie) on your computer? When you exit > the Web site, the file is removed." > > they may look the same at a glance, but they're not. while your > browser window is open they're treated exactly the same too -- > they're stored as a text file on your computer. the difference is > that one of them (the session cookie) is deleted when you close the > browser window and the other is not. So, you have actually seen the text file of a session cookie stored in your filesystem? I was under the impression it was stored in memory. - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOx1SXXgH0dUmEhrcEQInmQCfdpUOVKkrLvDEZGSabFzjbIZ9RggAoPeI 7aABknVE4Ol8K/W9PW3wsY0H =NvcA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Tue Jun 5 16:45:37 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Jun 5 16:45:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] high level cookie question.. References: <3B1D44C9.A677DD89@starkmedia.com> <00a201c0ee03$41bd4710$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> <3B1D4D3E.239CFC1A@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <00c001c0ee08$f49f6610$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > Subject: Re: [thesite] high level cookie question.. > ... > as for sessions, it won't work with that I'm trying to do AFAIK. > how to you maintain a session across different machines that have > different hostnames that are written in different languages? Sessions and session cookies are 2 different things. Session cookies are just cookies with no expiration date given (the default expiration date is at the end of the *browser* session). Sessions use a session cookie to store an ID which relates information stored on the server to that specific client. Session cookies are language-neutral... they're just cookies. > not that it wouldn't rule, but jeff and i were chatting about it on > the phone and didn't think it could be done very easily.. unless > someone else hasa better idea or some insight that we didnt I'm sure he was talking about sessions not session cookies. The only diff between a session cookie and a regular cookie is that you don't explicitely set an expiration date on a session cookie. dig? - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOx1TI3gH0dUmEhrcEQJpEgCfa0FgLOSQbF1o+jTvuVlyJqJ8O1MAoKeG XOBKU+fFC7wc4Ql+NCcgNH0w =GqB3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 5 17:04:48 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jun 5 17:04:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] high level cookie question.. In-Reply-To: <3B1D4D3E.239CFC1A@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Daniel J. Cody : : ok, so lets say I hash the username then store : the hash in the cookie. then lets say when i : want someone to read that cookie, i tell them : how i hashed it or whatever. is that better? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i know you're just throwing around ideas on how to make this work. so, i'm going to play devil's advocate with this one. how does passing the username around -- hashed or not -- help? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : as for sessions, it won't work with that I'm : trying to do AFAIK. how to you maintain a : session across different machines that have : different hostnames that are written in : different languages? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ that's kind of a trick question really. the operative word is "maintain". in reality, it's not possible to maintain the session. however, if we can come up with a way to instantiate a new session on another box in an environment that may or may not be running the same middleware language with the same information that's stored elsewhere for the user's current session, thereby making it look as though session state has been maintained -- that's what we're looking for. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : not that it wouldn't rule, but jeff and i were : chatting about it on the phone and didn't think : it could be done very easily.. unless someone : else hasa better idea or some insight that we : didnt :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ yup, not going to be easy. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 20:44:39 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 20:44:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] major downtime tomorrow.. Message-ID: <3B1DA6FF.7060904@starkmedia.com> just mentioned this to mich on ICQ, but tomorrow night everythign except weo is gonna be down for at least an hour. one of the power supplies(thank god i had dual power supplies) on that server blew tonite and took out 2 of the 4 disks in the raid 5 array with it(thank god for raid5 too) and all but 256Mb of the RAM in that box.. everything is still up and running however cus of the backup power and disks on that box. so i went xmas shopping(my term for buying geek toys :) tonite and pretty much picked up enough parts for a new server. i pulled 250 from my paypal donation account for it(we still have 250 in that btw). at any rate, i'm putting the new box together now and will move the unharmed disks to it tomorrow night, but it could take up to an hour to get everything kosher.. i'll send something out to all the lists tomorrow letting them know about the downtime.. hopefully with two brand new boxes in place this wont happen anytime in the foreseeable future :) thanks, lemme know if anyone has questions or anything .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 20:58:35 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 20:58:35 2001 Subject: [thesite] high level cookie question.. References: <3B1D44C9.A677DD89@starkmedia.com> <00a201c0ee03$41bd4710$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> <3B1D4D3E.239CFC1A@starkmedia.com> <00c001c0ee08$f49f6610$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> Message-ID: <3B1DAA43.8080908@starkmedia.com> ya. i hear that... do you see my problem though in how we're going to have different languages grep a cookie to tell if a person is logged in or not *without* touching the DB? .djc. Warden, Matt wrote: > I'm sure he was talking about sessions not session cookies. The only > diff between a session cookie and a regular cookie is that you don't > explicitely set an expiration date on a session cookie. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 21:00:45 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 21:00:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] high level cookie question.. References: Message-ID: <3B1DAAC3.8020906@starkmedia.com> > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : From: Daniel J. Cody > : > : ok, so lets say I hash the username then store > : the hash in the cookie. then lets say when i > : want someone to read that cookie, i tell them > : how i hashed it or whatever. is that better? > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > i know you're just throwing around ideas on how to make this work. so, i'm > going to play devil's advocate with this one. how does passing the username > around -- hashed or not -- help? well lets say we authenticate user joe as he logs in from d.e.o(example).. disregarding the actual authentication, d.e.o might want to know which user and userid from evolt its dealing with correct? > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : as for sessions, it won't work with that I'm > : trying to do AFAIK. how to you maintain a > : session across different machines that have > : different hostnames that are written in > : different languages? > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > that's kind of a trick question really. the operative word is "maintain". > in reality, it's not possible to maintain the session. however, if we can > come up with a way to instantiate a new session on another box in an > environment that may or may not be running the same middleware language with > the same information that's stored elsewhere for the user's current session, > thereby making it look as though session state has been maintained -- that's > what we're looking for. yup.. so, any ideas since we spoke on the phone?? :) .djc. From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 22:19:40 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 5 22:19:40 2001 Subject: [thesite] major downtime tomorrow.. In-Reply-To: <3B1DA6FF.7060904@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3B1D691B.4163.1A94F6@localhost> > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > > thanks, lemme know if anyone has questions or anything you should mention this on thelist so that some of those anonymous donaters have a chance to see what good their money is doing... or no? From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 5 22:23:50 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 5 22:23:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] major downtime tomorrow.. References: <3B1D691B.4163.1A94F6@localhost> Message-ID: <3B1DBE3F.60808@starkmedia.com> yup, i'll mention it tomorrow on thelist(and the m.e.o accounts)for sure.. .djc. aardvark wrote: >>From: "Daniel J. Cody" >> >>thanks, lemme know if anyone has questions or anything >> > > you should mention this on thelist so that some of those > anonymous donaters have a chance to see what good their money > is doing... > > or no? > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > From ppxsjc1 at unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk Wed Jun 6 03:05:48 2001 From: ppxsjc1 at unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk (Simon Coggins) Date: Wed Jun 6 03:05:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do In-Reply-To: <3B1CE5E8.DED7B912@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: Okay, I've updated the about and guidelines pages. Are there any other changes required? Daniel, have you got the url for the HTML include? Simon From john at userfrenzy.com Wed Jun 6 06:50:37 2001 From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar) Date: Wed Jun 6 06:50:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] high level cookie question.. In-Reply-To: <3B1DAA43.8080908@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody > Sent: 06 June 2001 04:58 > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thesite] high level cookie question.. > > ya. i hear that... do you see my problem though in how we're going to > have different languages grep a cookie to tell if a person is logged in > or not *without* touching the DB? I'm not sure it can be done *securely* without touching the DB. If whatever you put in the cookie isn't hashed, I can edit it. If it is hashed, you have to check it (else I could just make up a fake hash for djc, for example). Unless someone else has a fantastic idea I've never seen before, that is... [Back in the office after a week off-site at fscking last] ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 7209 4117 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 6 08:57:44 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 6 08:57:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] Consistency Across the Sites ... Things To Do References: Message-ID: <3B1E34BA.A1CC09FD@starkmedia.com> simon - from the dir_html/ directory include ../includes/dsp_header.html and ../includes/dsp_footer.html thanks and lemme know if that works out :) Simon Coggins wrote: > > Okay, I've updated the about and guidelines pages. Are there any other > changes required? > > Daniel, have you got the url for the HTML include? From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 6 10:35:09 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 6 10:35:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] evolt.org downtime tonite.. Message-ID: <3B1E4B79.4F50BA71@starkmedia.com> Hi everyone - Just wanted to give you a heads up that between 6pm and 7pm CST tonight, all evolt.org sites except www.evolt.org will be down. This includes browsers.evolt.org, lists.evolt.org, members.evolt.org, directory.evolt.org, and all lists.evolt.org mailing lists. Last night the server that hosts all those sites blew a power supply(we had dual power supplies luckily), a couple disks(we use RAID5 thankfully), and all but a fraction of the memory on that machine. No services were affected and due to its redundant nature, and we were able to avoid any immediate downtime.. Last night I picked up replacement parts for a new server, put em together and will move the old servers data to that machine tonight, but it will take up to an hour or so.. I'd quickly like to point out that I was able to get replacement parts so fast because of the donations that many of you have made to evolt.org in terms of cash and spare parts.. Getting cash together as quickly as I was able to without your generous donations would have required the entire admin group to start selling plasma and spare kidneys. Speaking for the entire admin group, thanks from the bottom of our collective, still intact, hearts. :) If you're interested in insuring the continued well being of the admin team and the evolt.org services you've come to know, love and depend on, consider making a donation to our paypal.com fund(djc at members.evolt.org is the account) or contacting myself or any other admin( http://evolt.org/who_runs_evolt ) offlist with questions or inquiries. I'll be sending out an email to all lists when everything is back up and running sometime around 7pm CST. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions or concerns( djc at members.evolt.org ) Thanks for your patience!! If you build your own servers, break down and spend an extra $50 to get a case with dual power supplies. It will save you in blood pressure medication in the long run. ;) .djc. djc at members.evolt.org From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 6 18:03:02 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 6 18:03:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] we're down.. Message-ID: <3B1EB627.A44EB404@starkmedia.com> see ya in an hour From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 6 19:41:44 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 6 19:41:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: [Admin] one test References: <3B1ECC0B.A4FE4CC7@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3B1ECC8B.199773F8@starkmedia.com> ok. well that seriously fucking sucked. 2 new motherboards later we're back up. details later, i'm in need of a bar now From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 6 19:42:58 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 6 19:42:58 2001 Subject: [thesite] RE: evolt downtime Message-ID: <3B1ECCD3.6DF0BA8C@starkmedia.com> Everything is good to go folks, thanks for your patience. .djc. From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Jun 7 19:24:59 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Jun 7 19:24:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis on teo Message-ID: <00ae01c0efb0$fbf390e0$bd079ad8@mef> Hi Rudy, When you have a chance, can you also activate AnswerThis on teo please. Thanks, Michele From r937 at interlog.com Thu Jun 7 19:33:34 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Jun 7 19:33:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] AnswerThis on teo Message-ID: <01c0efb2$272dbd20$244a149a@rudy> >When you have a chance, can you also activate AnswerThis on teo please. d0nez0rz^H^H^H rudemeister From marlene.bruce at cdgsolutions.com Fri Jun 8 16:59:22 2001 From: marlene.bruce at cdgsolutions.com (Marlene Bruce) Date: Fri Jun 8 16:59:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] article ratings Message-ID: <93A7B5EFAA22D4119C8400105A9CA61646832E@EXCHANGE> How are "highest rated articles" calculated? Some articles rated at "5" are not showing in the list, so I figure the list must reflect some combination of factors (number of ratings, how many are of a specific number, etc.). Just curious... Thanks, Marlene From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Fri Jun 8 17:23:53 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Fri Jun 8 17:23:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] article ratings References: <93A7B5EFAA22D4119C8400105A9CA61646832E@EXCHANGE> Message-ID: <002a01c0f069$344cbad0$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Marlene, > From: "Marlene Bruce" > Subject: [thesite] article ratings > > How are "highest rated articles" calculated? Some articles rated at > "5" are not showing in the list, so I figure the list must reflect > some combination of factors (number of ratings, how many are of a > specific number, etc.). Just curious... http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-April/001072.html Very bottom. Thanks, - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOyFPoHgH0dUmEhrcEQJsHgCeNXjSO6vpjEPReOBPhk8Pihk2UWsAoMlg YnFT2Ts2ROsblXv6NI60DfTD =KnGS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From roselli at earthlink.net Fri Jun 8 17:25:48 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Fri Jun 8 17:25:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] article ratings In-Reply-To: <93A7B5EFAA22D4119C8400105A9CA61646832E@EXCHANGE> Message-ID: <200106082225.f58MPjt02483@leo.evolt.org> > From: Marlene Bruce > > How are "highest rated articles" calculated? Some articles rated at > "5" are not showing in the list, so I figure the list must reflect > some combination of factors (number of ratings, how many are of a > specific number, etc.). Just curious... minimum 5 ratings... above 5 ratings, it's in the running... and as you can see, a hundredth of a point matters a lot... the admin archives have more detail... From marlene at members.evolt.org Fri Jun 8 17:34:48 2001 From: marlene at members.evolt.org (Marlene Bruce) Date: Fri Jun 8 17:34:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] article ratings In-Reply-To: <200106082225.f58MPjt02483@leo.evolt.org> References: <200106082225.f58MPjt02483@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: Thanks guys! Marlene From john at userfrenzy.com Sat Jun 9 10:31:32 2001 From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar) Date: Sat Jun 9 10:31:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] Answer this In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm sorry to rain on the parade, especially because I think it's a fantastic idea (and it sure beats the crap out of a generic FAQ), but, Seeing the first Question, I really don't think the mechanism works *at all*. In every other respect, WEO (in common with all other webloggy-type apps) takes responses to the question on the same page. We're asking people to create new articles in another section entirely. Worse, those new articles make no backward-reference whatsoever to their progenitor article in the AnswerThis section (how could they?) Suggested options: 1) Backtrack Code articles to their source (not attractive to me because it will inevitably fill the code section with shitloads of similar articles in various script languages) 2) Allow long responses (including code) in the below-article discussions in the AnswerThis section. Either way, what's just arrived is counterintuitive - and I suspect the only reason I followed it at all is because I'm on thesite list. Something this obtuse defeats the object: I see very little point in creating something which is intended to get soid contributions from outside the evolt 'core', yet cannot really be used by anyone in that category. Obviously I should make clear that I'm not denigrating anyone's efforts per se - this is more of a UI 'bug' than a fundamental problem I think. jh From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Sat Jun 9 11:48:08 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Sat Jun 9 11:48:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] Answer this References: Message-ID: <002b01c0f103$865ef5a0$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > From: "John Handelaar" > Subject: [thesite] Answer this > ... > In every other respect, WEO (in common with all > other webloggy-type apps) takes responses to > the question on the same page. We're asking > people to create new articles in another section > entirely. AnswerThis isn't a response-based system, if that makes any sense. It's not like comments on an article. Maybe if you saw the objectives of AnswerThis you would like it better. Summarized from an admin posting: a. Content used to be coming to the evolt.org site *MUCH* faster than it is now. We'd be getting one to three headlines in that Headlines mailer to thelist every day. b. It's generally agreed that one of our greatest assets is the www.evolt.org site. browsers.evolt.org and members.evolt.org are both awesome, but they're add-ons to what makes evolt great at its core. c. We wanted a way to prompt content. Not only just prompt articles, but prompt *good* articles. d. There is/was a lacking of good articles in the Code category. The top 5 rated articles used to be all design and usability articles. e. AnswerThis was developed as a way to prompt *specific* content from our members and arouse isterst in developing content. *WE* come up with the idea. *THEY* come up with the article. f. There was another plus. AnswerThis would naturally end up with solution articles similar to Breadcrumbs for XXXX that exist on the site now. Those types of articles kick major ass, IMO. > Worse, those new articles make no > backward-reference whatsoever to their progenitor > article in the AnswerThis section (how could > they?) Hyperlinks work on our site. ;-) Seriously, this is something admin would add. Just "This article is in response to [AnswerThis Problem Article]." > Suggested options: > > 1) Backtrack Code articles to their source > (not attractive to me because it will > inevitably fill the code section with > shitloads of similar articles in various > script languages) That's the point. See Breadcrumbs for XXXXXX. Shitloads? I don't think it will be *that* effective. If so, we'll have to figure a way to determine which articles get approved. > 2) Allow long responses (including code) in > the below-article discussions in the > AnswerThis section. No way. See above. The whole point is to get people to write articles. > Something this obtuse defeats the object: > I see very little point in creating something > which is intended to get soid contributions from > outside the evolt 'core', yet cannot really be > used by anyone in that category. What do you mean by this? I think you are hinting at something that should be added to the category information article. If so, what should be added? And "outside the evolt 'core'"? You mean we'd be accepting problem articles from non-admin authors.. is that what you're referring to? If so, we haven't exactly decided on that. I think we just left it open in the category information article so that if we decided to go that way, we can. It would be ideal if admin didn't have to write all the problem articles. > Obviously I should make clear that I'm not > denigrating anyone's efforts per se - this is > more of a UI 'bug' than a fundamental problem > I think. Even if you were saying "AnswerThis sucks", I'd rather you speak up. We can make changes if you still think there are problems. Remember, this is something new. We aren't super-gods who know everything about usability, building community, managing content, etc., etc., etc. I'm not sure anyone expected that we would launch AnswerThis and never have to change anything about it. Thanks for speaking up. I'd like to hear more (especially a clarification above where you lay down your problem with the current setup). Thanks, - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOyJSiHgH0dUmEhrcEQLV1gCdHp/RcDS81HLpJPf0U7kSFWMdBc0An3Mv h3chpmTh+zXqSlQaXph7Ro1g =sjB1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From john at userfrenzy.com Sat Jun 9 13:35:04 2001 From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar) Date: Sat Jun 9 13:35:04 2001 Subject: [thesite] Answer this [LONG] In-Reply-To: <002b01c0f103$865ef5a0$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Warden, Matt > Sent: 09 June 2001 17:45 > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thesite] Answer this > > ... > > In every other respect, WEO (in common with all > > other webloggy-type apps) takes responses to > > the question on the same page. We're asking > > people to create new articles in another section > > entirely. > > AnswerThis isn't a response-based system, if that makes any sense. > It's not like comments on an article. > > Maybe if you saw the objectives of AnswerThis you would like it > better. Summarized from an admin posting: I an see quite clearly what it is, thanks :-) My problem with it is that it introduces an incoherency to the 'genre' of site which WEO represents. Kind of like [pauses, thinks of a more extreme example of what he means] introducing discussions under Yahoo! category listings, but *only some of them*. > > Suggested options: > > > > 1) Backtrack Code articles to their source > > (not attractive to me because it will > > inevitably fill the code section with > > shitloads of similar articles in various > > script languages) > > That's the point. See Breadcrumbs for XXXXXX. Shitloads? I don't > think it will be *that* effective. If so, we'll have to figure a way > to determine which articles get approved. > > > 2) Allow long responses (including code) in > > the below-article discussions in the > > AnswerThis section. > > No way. See above. Hang on: you can't have it both ways. Either there won't be shitloads of similar-looking Code articles, or there'll bee too many comments in AnswerThis articles. To reject both assumptions is illogical, Captain. > > Something this obtuse defeats the object: > > I see very little point in creating something > > which is intended to get soid contributions from > > outside the evolt 'core', yet cannot really be > > used by anyone in that category. > > What do you mean by this? I think you are hinting at something that > should be added to the category information article. If so, what > should be added? Nah - just a reiteration of the way in which AnswerThis doesn't work the same way as any other article type. > And "outside the evolt 'core'"? You mean we'd be accepting problem > articles from non-admin authors.. is that what you're referring to? No, rather to the intended influx of Code pieces. [Brief pause there to note how much Earth: Final Conflict (which is on the TV behind me) sucks ass]. I just figured it out. BG: I've been a print and radio editor. I think that one of the things that doesn't fly for me with this is that your^H^H^H^H our procedure of acquiring new feature articles (you're right, it has tailed off enormously, but I'll come to that in a moment) contains the following assumptions: * The way to get one new great code piece ? la 'Breadcrumbs' is to invite several people to write entire features. * Merely 'good' features shouldn't be posted, commented on and possibly, as a result, re-posted as 'great'. They must be great to begin with even though our medium (the web) doesn't require it. IIRC, 'Breadcrumbs' took a long time to pull together. My editing head says that this isn't how it's done - an editor would draw up a features list and find people to write the stuff, and/or receive proposals from freelancers and accept/reject/modify those. In evolt's case, the latter was the only original mechanism, and the articles have trailed off. Interestingly, though, the only reason they've *noticeably* trailed off in number is because the Admin group have stopped writing them. We've never had many more pieces going in from non-admins than now. Why? [That's probably a new thread, and in any case I'll wait for suggestions before offering any]. Meanwhile, the new (and to some extent previous) commissioning process also makes all of these assumptions at the same time. Please no-one read this and think I'm saying this is deliberate, it's just how it's gone: * WEO is a publication, not a community site (not even one with a high bar to jump). * WEO is a community site and therefore needs no formal editing procedure. * WEO has an editing process but its 'core' sees no need to explain what that is to either its readers or its 'employees' - nor does that editing process need to be in any way 'professional'. These are mutually contradictory. Which is usually not a problem for any organisation *until* something cracks. Or suddenly stops happening. Like the evolt founders getting radically busier in the last 2 years and not writing nearly all the content... I mean, I've been a member of thelist for about that long and there's no doubt at all that I'd have written articles (or got friends and/or employees to do so) *if* I had a clearer idea of what was wanted.... ...to which the stock response will be 'The Community Decides What's Wanted All By Itself'... ...which whilst sincerely meant, has never been true in practice. There IS an editorial hand at work on WEO and very few people have a real feel for what it is. I doubt that any person or people created it, either. (OMG!!! A roving dismembered editorial HAND!!!!) But I'll tell you one thing (and to be honest I might not have jumped in quite so quickly on this subject otherwise): MAN, that's one _dull_ first Question. By which I mean what can it possibly result in that hasn't been done by every other How-To site? http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/backend/databases/tutorials/tutorial3.ht ml http://www.webmasterbase.com/article.php/228 > > Obviously I should make clear that I'm not > > denigrating anyone's efforts per se - this is > > more of a UI 'bug' than a fundamental problem > > I think. > > Even if you were saying "AnswerThis sucks", I'd rather you speak up. I know, that's what we're like here. But (as aardvark will no doubt readily attest), it's only when you forget to include the caveats that someone unexpectedly takes exception :-) > We can make changes if you still think there are problems. Remember, > this is something new. We aren't super-gods who know everything about > usability, building community, managing content, etc., etc., etc. Sure - hence the post, innit? Here's a very serious suggestion: why don't we take the question of 'What Would You Like to See on WEO?' to thelist? We want more articles, but you don't get if you don't ask. At the very least we'd be able to compile a nice commissioning list. Tired now. That took an hour of thought and editing. JH From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Sat Jun 9 14:55:50 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Sat Jun 9 14:55:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] Answer this References: Message-ID: <005301c0f11d$c1ecef90$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > From: "John Handelaar" > Subject: RE: [thesite] Answer this [LONG] > ... > > That's the point. See Breadcrumbs for XXXXXX. Shitloads? I don't > > think it will be *that* effective. If so, we'll have to figure a > > way to determine which articles get approved. > > > > > 2) Allow long responses (including code) in > > > the below-article discussions in the > > > AnswerThis section. > > > > No way. See above. > > Hang on: you can't have it both ways. I can't? > Either there won't > be shitloads of similar-looking Code articles, or there'll > bee too many comments in AnswerThis articles. Huh? Don't you mean either there will be too maybe comments on AnswerThis articles or there *will* be shitloads of similar-looking solution articles? I think that's what you mean. Regardless, I don't agree with it. *Maybe* we'll end up with one or two people posting solutions as comments to problem articles, but the problem article says right in it that solutions should be articles. As for shitloads of similar-looking articles, I don't think that will happen either. I mean, count the number of solution articles we have now. Zero. We'll end up with two... maybe three. The hope is that each uses a different scripting language or takes a different approach. > To reject > both assumptions is illogical, Captain. Then call me Captain Illogical, I guess. > > > Something this obtuse defeats the object: > > > I see very little point in creating something > > > which is intended to get soid contributions from > > > outside the evolt 'core', yet cannot really be > > > used by anyone in that category. > > > > What do you mean by this? I think you are hinting at something > > that should be added to the category information article. If so, > > what should be added? > > Nah - just a reiteration of the way in which AnswerThis > doesn't work the same way as any other article type. Well, the AnswerThis problem article is different. Think about the Breadcrumbs for XXXX articles. Those could have been created by the AnswerThis method. This type of article is already established on weo. > > And "outside the evolt 'core'"? You mean we'd be accepting > > problem articles from non-admin authors.. is that what you're > > referring to? > > No, rather to the intended influx of Code pieces. [Brief pause > there to note how much Earth: Final Conflict (which is on the TV > behind me) sucks ass]. No. These aren't just going to be code articles. That's just the initial use for it. > Interestingly, though, the only > reason they've *noticeably* trailed off in number is because the > Admin group have stopped writing them. We've never had many more > pieces going in from non-admins than now. > > Why? [That's probably a new thread, and in any case I'll wait for > suggestions before offering any]. Fwiw, this drop off from admin is intentional. > Like the evolt founders getting radically busier > in the last 2 years and not writing nearly all the content... Again, this isn't it at all. The drop off from admin is intentional. Same with thelist. We're letting the members takeover. It isn't our show. It's the members' show. > I mean, I've been a member of thelist for about that long > and there's no doubt at all that I'd have written articles > (or got friends and/or employees to do so) *if* I had a > clearer idea of what was wanted.... Have you read articles on the site? Check out the Highest Rated Articles box. That's what is wanted. > But I'll tell you one thing (and to be honest I might not > have jumped in quite so quickly on this subject otherwise): > MAN, that's one _dull_ first Question. By which I mean > what can it possibly result in that hasn't been done by > every other How-To site? > > http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/backend/databases/tutorials/tuto > rial3.ht ml > http://www.webmasterbase.com/article.php/228 > Maybe you don't agree, but that was *also* intentional. If we started off with a super-complex question, we were afraid that it would be too much at once. It was suggested that we start off with a relatively easy but common problem so that we could get some people excited about getting their solution heard. This is a decision that could be argued well either way. > Here's a very serious suggestion: why don't we take the > question of 'What Would You Like to See on WEO?' to thelist? > We want more articles, but you don't get if you don't ask. At > the very least we'd be able to compile a nice commissioning > list. Something similar to this was something discussed prior to the AnswerThis suggestion. I believe it was Martin who brought up a article that listed desired articles. I thought it was a bit too pushy. I mean, we don't pay our contributors. They just contribute. Now, we go to them and ask them to contribute specific things? I thought AnswerThis was a more elegant way of doing this. > Tired now. That took an hour of thought and editing. Unfortunately, I dont have that kind of time, so my response is most likely much less solid. I'm literally walking out the door to a little vacation. Hopefully someone will pick up discussions about this and make changes as needed. Thanks for bringing this up. - -- mattwarden mattwarden.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOyJ+i3gH0dUmEhrcEQIy0ACfdnqjO+4+cUz2agp3N8zwApR25tMAn0Fd YXtL1YQ7UzbUiocHpej9Q/Yx =gudb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From martin at members.evolt.org Sat Jun 9 15:04:24 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sat Jun 9 15:04:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] Answer this [LONG] Message-ID: <0417d0703200961PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Handelaar wrote on 9/6/01 7:33 pm >> -----Original Message----- >> From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org >> [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Warden, Matt >> Sent: 09 June 2001 17:45 >> To: thesite at lists.evolt.org >> Subject: Re: [thesite] Answer this >I just figured it out. > >BG: I've been a print and radio editor. BG: Been an online content manager, commissioning articles in a not-dissimilar way >I think that one of the >things that doesn't fly for me with this is that your^H^H^H^H >our procedure of acquiring new feature articles (you're right, >it has tailed off enormously, but I'll come to that in a moment) >contains the following assumptions: > >* The way to get one new great code piece ? la 'Breadcrumbs' > is to invite several people to write entire features. Not 'the' way, just 'a' way. Yeah, it's commissioning. But recognising that we probably have more knowledgeable people than we know about. >* Merely 'good' features shouldn't be posted, commented on > and possibly, as a result, re-posted as 'great'. 'good' works for me. >They > must be great to begin with even though our medium (the web) > doesn't require it. IIRC, 'Breadcrumbs' took a long time > to pull together. But wasn't intentionally done as a series, it just happened that way. fwiw, the basic idea was floating about before the Breadcrumbs series was written. >My editing head says that this isn't how it's done - an editor >would draw up a features list and find people to write the stuff, >and/or receive proposals from freelancers and accept/reject/modify >those. Don't disagree > >In evolt's case, the latter was the only original mechanism, and >the articles have trailed off. Interestingly, though, the only >reason they've *noticeably* trailed off in number is because the >Admin group have stopped writing them. We've never had many more >pieces going in from non-admins than now. Again, don't disagree. I know I'm particularly guilty of dropping my writing input. I've got about 4 half-written articles on the go some of which haven't moved for 6 months. >Why? [That's probably a new thread, and in any case I'll wait for >suggestions before offering any]. Time. Also I think that there *has* been a change in submissions since the new design went up - less news, if you'll notice. Also, we do want to have a less admin-dominated input. >Meanwhile, the new (and to some extent previous) commissioning >process also makes all of these assumptions at the same time. Please >no-one read this and think I'm saying this is deliberate, it's >just how it's gone: > >* WEO is a publication, not a community site (not even one with > a high bar to jump). > >* WEO is a community site and therefore needs no formal > editing procedure. Both combined - a community contributed publication (think 'literary magazine' perhaps) - with an editing process. The process is "It's good enough, or not", and admins only do small amounts of tidying of HTML where required. We *have* emailed people offlist to say 'that was great - any chance you could write that up into an article?' Also, we have occasionally emailed article authors to say "Can't publish this just now, but if you refocused it like *this* it would kick ass' >* WEO has an editing process but its 'core' sees no need to > explain what that is to either its readers or its > 'employees' Don't disagree - mea culpa >- nor does that editing process need to be in > any way 'professional'. Disagree, although it may appear that way. I know we do have some people with writing smarts who have been working on writing and editing guidelines. >I mean, I've been a member of thelist for about that long >and there's no doubt at all that I'd have written articles >(or got friends and/or employees to do so) *if* I had a >clearer idea of what was wanted... Agreed. We intuitively assumed that would be the case. "Dear John Please write more on stuff you know about. Content processes might be a good place to start..." >...which whilst sincerely meant, has never been true in >practice. There IS an editorial hand at work on WEO and >very few people have a real feel for what it is. For which we're at fault. Point taken. >I doubt >that any person or people created it, either. (OMG!!! >A roving dismembered editorial HAND!!!!) you've been playing Black and White, mate... > >But I'll tell you one thing (and to be honest I might not >have jumped in quite so quickly on this subject otherwise): >MAN, that's one _dull_ first Question. Here's another which is sitting waiting: ___________________________ >Hierarchical site structure storage >Author: MartinB >Print Article > >[Edit] > > > >Many sites are simple hierarchies - they have a root at the homepage and >branch out to directories, subdirectories and pages. Product catalogues >are the same. > >If you want to be able to dynamically manage the site, such that >navigation bars automatically update when you add new sections, then the >structure has to be held dynamically as data. > >At each node of the structure, you have a page, which contains >subnavigation to any pages below it. Then you would tag each content asset >with metadata to say where (ie attached to which node) it lives in the >structure. > >A slight complication. > >Say you have a content piece which lives in more than one place. So you >can access the same assets by going down more than one branch of the tree. >In each place, the asset is the same words, but is in the appropriate >style of that part of the site. To the user, they appear to be separate >pages, but in fact, they're maintained as a single content asset. > >Ideally, you should be able to tag each content asset with more than one >location > >Example > >This bank site has a potential maintenance problem. The exact same service >is offered to two different segments of their business market. > >1. Foreign currency cheques in the small business section of the site >2. Foreign currency cheques in the large business section of the site > > >If this is held as two separate pages, then they are sure to get out of >sync. And as each market segment is fiercely owned by a separate >department, it has the potential for getting very political, particularly >as there is a third department who actually operates the service. >Logically, there shold only be one maintainer of the service information, >particularly as it's not differentiated for each segment. > >Some possible directions > >1. As a technically naive person, the standard description of LDAP sounds >ideal for this. But no-one seems to use LDAP for holding this kind of >structured data... could it work? >2. Is there a standard XML schema for structured hierarchies? If not, what >would it look like? >3. How would a standard database schema map this, so that I could run it >on a simple CF/ASP/PHP/Perl and MySQL site like my evolt space? >4. What would the CF/ASP/PHP/Perl look like for each of the above? _____________________ John I very much do value your input on this - let's keep talking, eh? Cheers Martin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use Comment: Content after the signature block is *not* signed iQA/AwUBOyKAdHHoHnCoNczLEQL+ZACgm824NHdA3N84gjoMZ1+iyJypB4QAoNSI JkCSm4vjgz3cb/xMea4ln1/t =EJwh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sat Jun 9 22:54:21 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sat Jun 9 22:54:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] Answer this [LONG] [EVEN LONGER NOW] References: Message-ID: <00bf01c0f160$99a5aca0$3a069ad8@mef> Hey John ... As the author of both articles (with others' input of course) ... I figured I better pipe up here.. I'll try not to repeat what Matt and Martin have already said. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Handelaar" | > > In every other respect, WEO (in common with all | > > other webloggy-type apps) takes responses to | > > the question on the same page. We're asking | > > people to create new articles in another section | > > entirely. | > | > AnswerThis isn't a response-based system, if that makes any sense. | > It's not like comments on an article. | > | > Maybe if you saw the objectives of AnswerThis you would like it | > better. Summarized from an admin posting: | | I an see quite clearly what it is, thanks :-) My problem | with it is that it introduces an incoherency to the 'genre' | of site which WEO represents. Kind of like [pauses, thinks of | a more extreme example of what he means] introducing | discussions under Yahoo! category listings, but *only some | of them*. *Eventually*, I'd like to see AnswerThis grow into something more substantial. We actually talked about this last week on here. It was decided to keep it simple .. and maybe in the future it could grow into something else. It was agreed to keep within the existing weo structure, whereby stand-alone articles appear under their appropriate catetgory, can be rated and commented upon. Responses within the comments section for AnswerThis, though feasible, wouldn't have the desired result .. that being new articles. | > > Suggested options: | > > | > > 1) Backtrack Code articles to their source | > > (not attractive to me because it will | > > inevitably fill the code section with | > > shitloads of similar articles in various | > > script languages) | > | > That's the point. See Breadcrumbs for XXXXXX. Shitloads? I don't | > think it will be *that* effective. If so, we'll have to figure a way | > to determine which articles get approved. | > I'd *love* to fill the entire hard drive(s) we have for weo, with code articles.... sorry Dan. Seriously though, a series of articles in different technologies or using different approaches to solving a problem is one of the best things about evolt.org. We aren't limited to one approach (or coding language). Often times on thelist someone will ask a specific question, and end up with 4+ responses, all accurate, all different. My point being, this industry changes far too fast for there to ever be just one way of doing things. That first problem that appears in AnswerThis, I can think of three different, unique approaches with ASP to solve the problem (yeah Matt, I thought of another one ). I'd like to see all three written up eventually ... and I'd like to see the same problem *solved* using PHP, CF, Zope(?) .. and, since its a database problem and with SQL differences, we could even get into the approaches/solutions based on which coding language and database combination. Wow, that's long-winded. The point being, the more quality articles we can get for weo, the better. | > > Something this obtuse defeats the object: | > > I see very little point in creating something | > > which is intended to get soid contributions from | > > outside the evolt 'core', yet cannot really be | > > used by anyone in that category. | > | > What do you mean by this? I think you are hinting at something that | > should be added to the category information article. If so, what | > should be added? | | Nah - just a reiteration of the way in which AnswerThis | doesn't work the same way as any other article type. AnswerThis is just the place to put hypothetical problems. In all honesty, yes, we are article whoring .. just in a different way. Going back to original discussions that were had with respect to "how do we get other folks to write quality articles", one of the things I had originally brought up was the fact that a lot of people need a scenario, they need a reason to write something, they want to solve a *problem*. Its looking at the inner competitive side of a lot of programmers (and others too, engineers). If something doesn't work, or needs solving, they'll solve it. It's an adrenalin rush .. faced with a complex scenario ... working through it, fixing it/solving it. (I could go on for hours about this.. but I'll spare ya.) | | > And "outside the evolt 'core'"? You mean we'd be accepting problem | > articles from non-admin authors.. is that what you're referring to? | | No, rather to the intended influx of Code pieces. [Brief pause there | to note how much Earth: Final Conflict (which is on the TV behind me) | sucks ass]. Other members can write hypothetical situations/problems. Admin, of course, will review them .. and probably with even more of a fine tooth comb than some other types of articles on weo. I *want* others to write the hypothetical problems. I want the problems to be generic enough that a multitude of solutions are available, whether its a design problem and the solution can be in PhotoShop, Fireworks, PaintShopPro, that's fine. In all honesty, the *next* hypothetical problem I'm hoping will be design or a interface/usability situation, to provide some depth and show that hypothetical problems don't have to be just . | | I just figured it out. | | BG: I've been a print and radio editor. I think that one of the | things that doesn't fly for me with this is that your^H^H^H^H | our procedure of acquiring new feature articles (you're right, | it has tailed off enormously, but I'll come to that in a moment) | contains the following assumptions: | | * The way to get one new great code piece ? la 'Breadcrumbs' | is to invite several people to write entire features. Yes, this is true. At the same time, I'm hoping AnswerThis will encourage other members to participate. (Hey, we're all fully aware that AnswerThis may not fly at all .. I'm hoping it does .. but we'll see in time.) | | * Merely 'good' features shouldn't be posted, commented on | and possibly, as a result, re-posted as 'great'. I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Almost *all* articles are never edited again after they go live. We (admin group as a whole) don't want articles edited, and instead prefer that the comments section be used. And, there's nothing stopping anyone from writing another better article, if they so desire. The members rate the articles ... Good ones will be rated as such, so will excellent/exceptional articles. I can't see us ever saying to someone, "we're deleting the article you wrote three months ago because Joe just wrote one that's better". They | must be great to begin with even though our medium (the web) | doesn't require it. IIRC, 'Breadcrumbs' took a long time | to pull together. Not many articles are actually denied.... except for obvious marketting pushes and questions that belong on thelist. Martin commented on this point in greater detail. | | My editing head says that this isn't how it's done - an editor | would draw up a features list and find people to write the stuff, | and/or receive proposals from freelancers and accept/reject/modify | those. AnswerThis *is* doing this. Just a diffferent angle, in that we aren't asking any *one* person specifically to write the article. Instead, we are asking the weo community at large. Like I said before, it is completely possible that this approach won't work at all, and we'll have to go back to the drawing board and re-evalute how we get great content on the web site. | | In evolt's case, the latter was the only original mechanism, and | the articles have trailed off. Interestingly, though, the only | reason they've *noticeably* trailed off in number is because the | Admin group have stopped writing them. We've never had many more | pieces going in from non-admins than now. | | Why? [That's probably a new thread, and in any case I'll wait for | suggestions before offering any]. I'm game to discuss this in greater detail. It is VERY important topic .. and if you have some ideas as to why or how we can get more content, let's discuss them. AnswerThis is just *one* idea that we had .. doesn't mean we're not open to other ideas. I would like to give AnswerThis a chance though .. and do other things in combination. | | Meanwhile, the new (and to some extent previous) commissioning | process also makes all of these assumptions at the same time. Please | no-one read this and think I'm saying this is deliberate, it's | just how it's gone: | | * WEO is a publication, not a community site (not even one with | a high bar to jump). This I disagree with. I don't see weo as a publication. | | * WEO is a community site and therefore needs no formal | editing procedure. This is very much true. | | * WEO has an editing process but its 'core' sees no need to | explain what that is to either its readers or its | 'employees' - nor does that editing process need to be in | any way 'professional'. WOW .... ok, this we need to discuss. This is far over and beyond AnswerThis ... so, let's discuss this as part of the getting new content thread. | | These are mutually contradictory. Which is usually not a problem | for any organisation *until* something cracks. Or suddenly | stops happening. Like the evolt founders getting radically busier | in the last 2 years and not writing nearly all the content... Yup. | | I mean, I've been a member of thelist for about that long | and there's no doubt at all that I'd have written articles | (or got friends and/or employees to do so) *if* I had a | clearer idea of what was wanted.... WOW .. again. This never occurred to me .. I've been looking at things from a different angle, one of community-building, more people will be more confident and want to contribute more. Martin mentioned a guideline (or whatever it is). BUT, can I ask you one question ... is it because you don't know *what* to write about? In other words, will AnswerThis (maybe not that first problem) help lead you (and others) ... since we've outlined the type of article that we want, presented a problem, provided the basic information, provided a possible solution (aesthically only) ... i.e. all the general information is there to write a great article. Something that hasn't already been covered in the articles BUT does come up on thelist once bymonthly or so. Or would you prefer I say ... John will you please write an article for evolt.org on *insert whatever your expertise is here* (sorry, I don't know you well enough). That's pretty aggressive "article whoring" .. and its possible on a case-by-case basis. The thing is though, we want to involve others too .. and we want they to volunteer .. and there's no possible way for all of Admin and TheSite members to know who within the community are experts in which field. Sure, we know a number of experts .... but there are SEVERAL hundred/thousands of other members that we don't know on a more personal level. It's an option .. it's something we can consider doing over and above AnswerThis. | | ...to which the stock response will be 'The Community | Decides What's Wanted All By Itself'... | | ...which whilst sincerely meant, has never been true in | practice. There IS an editorial hand at work on WEO and | very few people have a real feel for what it is. I doubt | that any person or people created it, either. (OMG!!! | A roving dismembered editorial HAND!!!!) See above ... and .. we don't edit content .. we may make suggestions to make it more relevant (yes, we do get two line artilces, with a link off site) .. and we'll check spelling, grammar, and sometimes even code... the last only from a colleague or if someone asks us too. | | But I'll tell you one thing (and to be honest I might not | have jumped in quite so quickly on this subject otherwise): | MAN, that's one _dull_ first Question. By which I mean | what can it possibly result in that hasn't been done by | every other How-To site? | | http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/backend/databases/tutorials/tutorial3.ht | ml | http://www.webmasterbase.com/article.php/228 | Ok, now's where I come in... since I wrote it. What's "dull" about it? The two samples you sent are NOT the answer we're looking for. We don't want a "How to Design a Database" response .. not for this particular hypothetical problem. It's a complex 3/4 level hierarchical display issue that comes up on the list. I've seen/used some really good ASP tutorials, but they are only 2/3 levels. What's dull about it? You don't like the way it was written, the tone used, or is the problem not clear enough? Seriously, I'm not arguing, I'd really like to know. Perhaps because I already know the solution or at least the technique *I* would use to solve it .. that I'm too close to it, and haven't written it clear enough. | | > > Obviously I should make clear that I'm not | > > denigrating anyone's efforts per se - this is | > > more of a UI 'bug' than a fundamental problem | > > I think. | > | > Even if you were saying "AnswerThis sucks", I'd rather you speak up. Yup ... let's keep the conversations going .. the ultimate goal to make evolt.org better is always a good thing. | Here's a very serious suggestion: why don't we take the | question of 'What Would You Like to See on WEO?' to thelist? | We want more articles, but you don't get if you don't ask. At | the very least we'd be able to compile a nice commissioning | list. This is a great idea. There is a "members survey" thing I'm *supposed* to be working on. Not real high on my priority list, as other things have come up. But it *is* something on my plate to do. This is more of a community building exercise ... and we'll get all sorts of feedback no doubt. Exhausted here now too .. thanks for your comments John .. hopefully I haven't offended in anyway with my responses. Laterz, Michele From erika at seastorm.com Sun Jun 10 19:05:47 2001 From: erika at seastorm.com (Erika Meyer) Date: Sun Jun 10 19:05:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] can a person post here... Message-ID: without being subscribed? Erika erika at seastorm.com From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Jun 11 10:26:01 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Jun 11 10:26:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: [thechat] Because thechat is a List of Record References: <0462a4809190961PCOW025M@blueyonder.co.uk> <006301c0f118$eb769460$3a069ad8@mef> Message-ID: <3B24E1D6.8010604@starkmedia.com> I just updated the listinfo pages for both thesite and thechat to point to the correct archives.. .djc. Michele Foster wrote: > Martin, thesite does have archives... again, another item to be fixed on > leo. Here's the footer from thesite mailing: > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ From peter at vardus.com Mon Jun 11 10:59:27 2001 From: peter at vardus.com (Peter Van Dijck) Date: Mon Jun 11 10:59:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] UI problem (was: Answer this [LONG]) In-Reply-To: References: <002b01c0f103$865ef5a0$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> Message-ID: <4.3.2.20010611163602.02f7e800@mail.vardus.net> > > > denigrating anyone's efforts per se - this is > > > more of a UI 'bug' than a fundamental problem > > > I think. Not having read the entire discussion, I've always felt there was a fundamental UI problem on the Evolt website: articles are organised by date and section only, and can be searched. There is no easy way to browse them. A directory would solve that. As for having new stuff on the homepage, you could add a new content type: a group blog. But I'm not going to do all the work so I don't expect you guys to do it either. I know we're all busy... Peter ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://liga1.com building multiple language/culture websites http://poorbuthappy.editthispage.com online ethnology, up&down From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Jun 11 12:35:01 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Jun 11 12:35:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] UI problem (was: Answer this [LONG]) References: <002b01c0f103$865ef5a0$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> <4.3.2.20010611163602.02f7e800@mail.vardus.net> Message-ID: <035e01c0f29c$7775c240$3a069ad8@mef> Peter .. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Van Dijck" | Not having read the entire discussion, I've always felt there was a | fundamental UI problem on the Evolt website: articles are organised by date | and section only, and can be searched. There is no easy way to browse them. | A directory would solve that. A directory?? Care to elaborate please. | | As for having new stuff on the homepage, you could add a new content type: | a group blog. Why? What purpose would this serve? Forums? We don't want to take *away* from thelist nor the web site. Clarification please. :) Michele From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Jun 11 13:58:07 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Jun 11 13:58:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] sql question.. Message-ID: <3B251383.6040504@starkmedia.com> i'm tyring to create a view.. does this syntax look correct? SELECT calendar.cal_date, calendar.cal_event, employees.emp_id, employees.emp_first, employees.emp_last, employee_position_list.emp_pos_name, calendar.cal_id FROM employee_position_list INNER JOIN employees INNER JOIN calendar ON employees.emp_id = calendar.cal_emp_key ON employee_position_list.emp_pos_id = employees.emp_position_key; oracle is puking and just wonderingif my syntax is correct.. thankie :) From dsmah at home.com Mon Jun 11 14:13:42 2001 From: dsmah at home.com (Dean Mah) Date: Mon Jun 11 14:13:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] sql question.. In-Reply-To: <3B251383.6040504@starkmedia.com> from "Daniel J. Cody" at Jun 11, 2001 01:52:51 PM Message-ID: <200106111914.NAA01808@alice.monkeyland.ca> CREATE VIEW view_name AS SELECT calendar.cal_date, calendar.cal_event, employees.emp_id, employees.emp_first, employees.emp_last, employee_position_list.emp_pos_name, calendar.cal_id FROM employee_position_list, employees, calendar WHERE employees.emp_id = calendar.cal_emp_key AND/OR employee_position_list.emp_pos_id = employees.emp_position_key; Daniel J. Cody writes: > i'm tyring to create a view.. does this syntax look correct? > > SELECT calendar.cal_date, calendar.cal_event, > employees.emp_id, employees.emp_first, > employees.emp_last, > employee_position_list.emp_pos_name, > calendar.cal_id > FROM employee_position_list INNER JOIN > employees INNER JOIN > calendar ON > employees.emp_id = calendar.cal_emp_key ON > employee_position_list.emp_pos_id = employees.emp_position_key; > > oracle is puking and just wonderingif my syntax is correct.. From r937 at interlog.com Mon Jun 11 15:11:44 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Mon Jun 11 15:11:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] sql question.. Message-ID: <01c0f2b2$3d21ce20$0c49149a@rudy> >FROM employee_position_list INNER JOIN > employees INNER JOIN > calendar ON > employees.emp_id = calendar.cal_emp_key ON > employee_position_list.emp_pos_id = employees.emp_position_key; > >oracle is puking and just wonderingif my syntax is correct.. could be the way you are nesting the joins FROM p JOIN e JOIN c ON e.i=c.e ON p.i=e.p versus FROM p JOIN e ON p.i=e.p JOIN c ON e.i=c.e i could look it up but those oracle syntax diagrams make my eyes bleed i think parentheses may be employed... or at least inferred... not sure whether JOIN syntax is better than FROM tablelist for optimization, although i have heard it goes from left to right all things being equal... helps? rudy p.s. dean, how does AND/OR work?! ;o) From dsmah at home.com Mon Jun 11 16:15:45 2001 From: dsmah at home.com (Dean Mah) Date: Mon Jun 11 16:15:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] sql question.. In-Reply-To: <01c0f2b2$3d21ce20$0c49149a@rudy> from "rudy" at Jun 11, 2001 04:08:10 PM Message-ID: <200106112116.PAA02076@alice.monkeyland.ca> rudy writes: > > > employees.emp_id = calendar.cal_emp_key ON > > employee_position_list.emp_pos_id = employees.emp_position_key; > > > >oracle is puking and just wonderingif my syntax is correct.. > > rudy > > p.s. dean, how does AND/OR work?! ;o) It doesn't. I learned SQL on Ingres and Oracle and they didn't use the above join syntax so I really don't know what it is trying to do. I wasn't sure if the snippet would be translated to AND or OR in the where clause. Dean From r937 at interlog.com Mon Jun 11 17:09:41 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Mon Jun 11 17:09:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] sql question.. Message-ID: <01c0f2c2$b34821c0$0c49149a@rudy> > ... Oracle ... didn't use the above join syntax well, blow me down isn't the INNER JOIN .. ON syntax standard sql-92 or something? i am shocked doesn't oracle claim sql compliance? just went to check out those bleeding diagrams and could only find the plus sign being used for outer joins... still, i'd want to test it to make sure >>> p.s. dean, how does AND/OR work?! ;o) > > I wasn't sure if the snippet would be translated > to AND or OR in the where clause. hey, i was pulling your leg rudy From dsmah at home.com Mon Jun 11 17:22:16 2001 From: dsmah at home.com (Dean Mah) Date: Mon Jun 11 17:22:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] sql question.. In-Reply-To: <01c0f2c2$b34821c0$0c49149a@rudy> from "rudy" at Jun 11, 2001 06:06:01 PM Message-ID: <200106112223.QAA02300@alice.monkeyland.ca> rudy writes: > > ... Oracle ... didn't use the above join syntax > > well, blow me down > > isn't the INNER JOIN .. ON syntax standard sql-92 or something? i am > shocked > > doesn't oracle claim sql compliance? Straight from the Oracle SQL Reference: SQL-92 defined four levels of compliance: Entry, Transitional, Intermediate, and Full. A conforming SQL implementation must support at least Entry SQL. Oracle8i fully supports Entry SQL as outlined in Federal Information Processing Standard (FIPS) PUB 127-2, and has many features that conform to Transitional, Intermediate, or Full SQL. So they are as compliant as they need to be. :) Dean From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 12 00:43:44 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Jun 12 00:43:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] Answer this [LONG] [EVEN LONGER NOW] In-Reply-To: <00bf01c0f160$99a5aca0$3a069ad8@mef> Message-ID: > responses, all accurate, all different. My point being, this industry > changes far too fast for there to ever be just one way of doing things. > That first problem that appears in AnswerThis, I can think of three > different, unique approaches with ASP to solve the problem (yeah Matt, I > thought of another one ). I'd like to see all three written up i will not argue that getting solutions of various types to a single scenario is good, or that evolt.org needs more content (see admin post you've already responded to). they're obviously both good things. but is AnswerThis the best way to article-whore? could we not post a bi-weekly hypothetical to thelist, and call for articles from people that way? saves having a strange category on thesite... articles submitted would not refer to the original thelist email. they might link to other related articles. advantages of whoring via thelist: - can hint at what articles we need to fill our "holes" (areas that we're low on content - lots of them basically) - can reach an audience of a couple thousand (i doubt that a huge percentage of them read thesite regularly - see my admin post for info on that also). - if you've got time to post an elaborate post to thelist (and some of them are great), you have time to write an article (almost). a couple of things for evolt to do: more openly ask for articles, and in specific areas. increase number of offlist "this would make a great article" postings. not say "you can submit something if you want", and instead say "if there's something you know well, contribute, etc". also, on every headline mailout, we should have a bit of an article-whoring spiel in there too. maybe even make it serve the authors further. instead of just: Article asdflkajsdlf;kjas;df; author: rudy [link] have: Article a;sldfkja;lkdjlas;df; [article summary] [link] author: rudy brief line about author, ie: "rudy is an experienced database programmer currently freelancing from his home-office in Toronto". provides more info on the article. provides more benefit to the author. that one-liner could lead to another freelance job for rudy, without making it seem like a direct sales pitch. just ideas... From colette at wi.rr.com Tue Jun 12 08:16:28 2001 From: colette at wi.rr.com (Colette Brown) Date: Tue Jun 12 08:16:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] HW and SW assets for sale Message-ID: <110905762.20010612081332@wi.rr.com> I don't know what the hardware needs are for evolt.org, but, as an FYI, here's a message I got from another mailing list. Colette ===8<==============Original message text=============== Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:54:20 -0700 From: liz ryan Subject: HW and SW assets for sale from: webercathy at yahoo.com Liz, Thanks for being there to help us get the word out in the past about practice.com. Practice.com is closing and liquidating assets. Go to http://www.practice.com/ to see the list of items or just look below: 1. Great Domain Name 26,000 hits per week or approximately 800 unique users per week -- with very little marketing efforts. We have experienced the following in our traffic demographic: Medical, Health, Insurance, Professional Services : Law, Consulting, Accounting, Sports Enthusiasts All Levels of Students & Exam Seekers The Television Series, "The Practice" (tm) Contact Cathy Weber 708-445-1158 2. Software -One (1) License of QuickBooks Pro 2000 ($100 ) -License of ColdFusion Enterprise Server v4.5 ($2,500 obo) -Box of RedHat Linux v6.2 ($50 obo) -License of Oracle 8i Release 2 (8.1.6) Standard Edition for Linux ($10,000 obo) 3. Hardware -Dell Power Edge 2400, PIII 600, 256MB, 4x18.2GB LVD SCSI, SCSI CD, RAID5, 20/40GB DLT4000 TBU (w/10 backup tapes!), Red Hat 6.2 hardend ($6,500 obo) -IndyBox RS4200, PIII 850, 1024MB, 4x18GB hot-pluggable, 33/66GB VXA Tape Drive, 4U, 10/100 Integrated, Red Hat 6.2 hardend ($10,000 obo) -- Configured as a BAD ASS Oracle server! -Two (2) IndyBox RE1100, PIII 700, 256MB, 20GB, 1U, 10/100 Integrated, Red Hat 6.2 hardend ($1,000 obo / server) -- Perfect for a high-performance web server farm! -IndyBox RE1100, PIII 700, 128MB, 20GB, 1U 10/100 Integrated, Red Hat 6.2 hardend ($900 obo) -IndyBox RE100, Celeron 500, 128MB, 20GB, 1U 10/100 Integrated, Red Hat 6.2 hardend ($500 obo) -Phobos PCI 4-Port Load Balancer/Switch, 32/64 Bit, 32MB ($1,500 obo) -- The best, cheapest way to build a highly available and scalable web server farm! -ATI 8126XL 24-Port Programmable Switch ($700 obo) -Hewlett Packard (HP) OfficeJet G85 All-In-One ($500 obo) Free support, installation and configuration for multiple purchases and/or purchasing at our asking price from someone with over 15 years UNIX systems administration experience! If you or your organization is looking equipment, please contact Larry Donahue, (708)445-1158 for inquires. Thanks, Cathy Weber practice.com ===8<===========End of original message text=========== From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 12 12:42:33 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 12 12:42:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] HW and SW assets for sale References: <110905762.20010612081332@wi.rr.com> Message-ID: <3B26536C.7030801@starkmedia.com> damn.. wish i hada couple G's to thrown down on an Indy :) .djc. Colette Brown wrote: > I don't know what the hardware needs are for evolt.org, but, as an > FYI, here's a message I got from another mailing list. > 3. Hardware > > -Dell Power Edge 2400, PIII 600, 256MB, 4x18.2GB LVD > SCSI, SCSI CD, RAID5, > 20/40GB DLT4000 TBU (w/10 backup tapes!), Red Hat 6.2 > hardend ($6,500 obo) > -IndyBox RS4200, PIII 850, 1024MB, 4x18GB > hot-pluggable, 33/66GB VXA Tape > Drive, 4U, 10/100 Integrated, Red Hat 6.2 hardend > ($10,000 obo) -- > Configured as a BAD ASS Oracle server! > -Two (2) IndyBox RE1100, PIII 700, 256MB, 20GB, 1U, > 10/100 Integrated, Red > Hat 6.2 hardend ($1,000 obo / server) -- Perfect for a > high-performance web > server farm! > -IndyBox RE1100, PIII 700, 128MB, 20GB, 1U 10/100 > Integrated, Red Hat 6.2 > hardend ($900 obo) > -IndyBox RE100, Celeron 500, 128MB, 20GB, 1U 10/100 > Integrated, Red Hat 6.2 > hardend ($500 obo) > -Phobos PCI 4-Port Load Balancer/Switch, 32/64 Bit, > 32MB ($1,500 obo) -- The > best, cheapest way to build a highly available and > scalable web server farm! > -ATI 8126XL 24-Port Programmable Switch ($700 obo) > -Hewlett Packard (HP) OfficeJet G85 All-In-One ($500 > obo) From elfur at elfur.is Tue Jun 12 17:27:11 2001 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Tue Jun 12 17:27:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] what happened to thebot that was on irc.evolt.org ?? Message-ID: <07c701c0f38e$535e2bc0$40aefea9@DWARFS> hey guys, just wondering: what happened to it? it used to be able to tell me all sorts of useless, but interesting things and now ... i have to stay in the dark ... later *the one* From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 12 18:15:27 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 12 18:15:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] what happened to thebot that was on irc.evolt.org ?? References: <07c701c0f38e$535e2bc0$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: <3B26A16E.5040505@starkmedia.com> elfi - you gonna be on IRC tonite? i may join ya if you're around thebot was john's i believe.. Elfur Logadottir wrote: > hey guys, just wondering: what happened to it? > it used to be able to tell me all sorts of useless, but interesting things > and now ... i have to stay in the dark ... > > later > *the one* > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Jun 12 19:59:59 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Jun 12 19:59:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] what happened to thebot that was on irc.evolt.org ?? References: <07c701c0f38e$535e2bc0$40aefea9@DWARFS> <3B26A16E.5040505@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <05f001c0f3a3$d8daa340$3a069ad8@mef> I can be .... send a message when *catching up* M ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" | elfi - | | you gonna be on IRC tonite? i may join ya if you're around | | thebot was john's i believe.. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 12 22:34:52 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 12 22:34:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] small update.. Message-ID: <3B26FA99.5080700@starkmedia.com> admin.evolt.org is about 70% done and i'm a day ahead of where i thought i'd be on it.. almost all the HTML needs to be redone, but thats not in my budget or skillset :) i only mention this cus there are a lot of good things that will come when this is(finally) ready to go, and we'll be able to stay on top of all the kick ass ideas we have instead of letting them slip through the cracks. so, hopefully thursday i'll open it up for everyone to peek at and explain more in the meantime.. thanks :) .djc. From john at userfrenzy.com Wed Jun 13 08:15:01 2001 From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar) Date: Wed Jun 13 08:15:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] what happened to thebot that was on irc.evolt.org ?? In-Reply-To: <05f001c0f3a3$d8daa340$3a069ad8@mef> Message-ID: Fscking net splits caused by UK's rapidly degenerating infrastructure. He'll be back shortly. ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 7209 4117 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Michele Foster > Sent: 13 June 2001 01:58 > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thesite] what happened to thebot that was on irc.evolt.org > ?? > > > I can be .... send a message when > > *catching up* > > M > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > > > | elfi - > | > | you gonna be on IRC tonite? i may join ya if you're around > | > | thebot was john's i believe.. > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > From ronwhite at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 13 09:08:47 2001 From: ronwhite at members.evolt.org (Ron White) Date: Wed Jun 13 09:08:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] small update.. In-Reply-To: <3B26FA99.5080700@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: I've got some time on my hands at the moment, what do you need done with the HTML? Thanks, Ron White -----Original Message----- From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 1:31 AM To: admin at lists.evolt.org; thesite at lists.evolt.org Subject: [thesite] small update.. admin.evolt.org is about 70% done and i'm a day ahead of where i thought i'd be on it.. almost all the HTML needs to be redone, but thats not in my budget or skillset :) i only mention this cus there are a lot of good things that will come when this is(finally) ready to go, and we'll be able to stay on top of all the kick ass ideas we have instead of letting them slip through the cracks. so, hopefully thursday i'll open it up for everyone to peek at and explain more in the meantime.. thanks :) .djc. _______________________________________________ http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 13 11:19:39 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 13 11:19:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] fyi, updated live site.. Message-ID: <3B279174.1050406@starkmedia.com> just an fyi here but I just rolled the teo codebase up to weo .. there were quite a few changes in there(site banner, article submission page, denied articles not showing up in admin section, replacing some and tags i found.. etc..) if anyone sees or has probs, lemme know ;) .djc. From genghis at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 13 11:20:19 2001 From: genghis at members.evolt.org (John Handelaar) Date: Wed Jun 13 11:20:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] Odd... Message-ID: Site front page bugged out with a CF error a minute ago (1615 GMT), re-appeared on a refresh. ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 7209 4117 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 13 11:25:19 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 13 11:25:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] Odd... References: Message-ID: <3B2792C8.8020703@starkmedia.com> probably right as i was moving new code up.. :) John Handelaar wrote: > Site front page bugged out with a CF error a minute ago > (1615 GMT), re-appeared on a refresh. From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 13 11:25:54 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 13 11:25:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] small update.. References: Message-ID: <3B2792ED.7070005@starkmedia.com> just cleaning up HTML basically.. some of it really looks like shit thanks to me :) sound ok? Ron White wrote: > I've got some time on my hands at the moment, what do you need done with the > HTML? From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 13 12:52:57 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 13 12:52:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] jeff, rudy.. Message-ID: <3B27A73F.8070304@starkmedia.com> homeys - remember that one time in oshkosh last fall when we got really drunk and coded the new evolt site? ;) umm. i'm going through all the stylesheet stuff cus i wanna make use of all the stylesheets that people have been working on so nicely, and i'm totally fucking lost :) been playing around with stuff on t.e.o and heres my questions: login on t.e.o and go here: http://test.evolt.org/user/index.html?action=edit i've just put a lil something in there to show the information in oracle regarding the schemes, elements and schemeelement tables. it pulls up the only scheme we currently have, default1 by r937 and shows the values for that particular scheme now go to http://test.evolt.org/style/index.html and you can see what the current session values are for most of our stylesheet values(or schemeelements as they're referer to in oracle) this somehow ties into a shitload of session vars(i uncommented them in app.cfm jeffy) now, my question is this.. what if anything do these have to do with eachother? frankley, the /style/index.html page would be a bitch for anyone to use. i want to have a dropdown list(like is on the user page) of all available schemes/styles in the DB. the next question is, how do we get whats outputed in http://test.evolt.org/user/index.html?action=edit to actually change the style for the page? if you'll notice, our stylesheets are like so: body {background : #4F5C38 ; font-family : Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif ; font-size : 11px ; line-height : 130% ; b, strong {font-weight : bold ; } cite {font-style : normal ; } and so on.. now, how do we get the values from the DB to match up as a stylesheet? many of the attributes are named differently like body.background in the stylesheet but its body.bgcolor in oracle. Lots of questions, sorry about that :) I'd just like to get working on this now that thewife is nearning completion.. its a really cool feature and a shame we've let it sit for 9 months :( thanks for any feedback or direction :) .djc. From ronwhite at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 13 14:05:09 2001 From: ronwhite at members.evolt.org (Ron White) Date: Wed Jun 13 14:05:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] small update.. In-Reply-To: <3B2792ED.7070005@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: Sure, where do I get the stuff you want cleaned? Thanks, Ron White -----Original Message----- From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 12:21 PM To: thesite at lists.evolt.org Subject: Re: [thesite] small update.. just cleaning up HTML basically.. some of it really looks like shit thanks to me :) sound ok? Ron White wrote: > I've got some time on my hands at the moment, what do you need done with the > HTML? _______________________________________________ http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ From r937 at interlog.com Wed Jun 13 15:02:11 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Wed Jun 13 15:02:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] jeff, rudy.. Message-ID: <01c0f443$2491e060$LocalHost@rudy> >http://test.evolt.org/user/index.html?action=edit >http://test.evolt.org/style/index.html > >now, my question is this.. what if anything do these have to do with >eachother? frankley, the /style/index.html page would be a bitch for >anyone to use. yeah, i have to agree that that page would be hard to use but as you may notice, the elements are named the same to be honest, i have not yet examined anyone's custom style sheet, but don't the selectors match up? are they using weird class names or something? i think we talked about using slidey controls for the colours, but that's for designing a new scheme, and i have no idea (sorry) how the current scheme-generating pages work... > the idea is, i want to have a dropdown list(like is on the user page) > of all available schemes/styles in the DB. goes without saying that picking from the ones available should be possible >the next question is, how do we get whats outputed in >http://test.evolt.org/user/index.html?action=edit to actually change the >style for the page? some heavy duty coding, i would imaagine jeff mentioned that all the schemes would be generated into .css files, so it would have to be something like this (off the top of my head ) -- body {background : ##variables.bodybg# font-family : #variables.bodyfontfam# et cetera note that the query to pull out the individual scheme elements will result in many rows that all share the same structure -- the value will be schemelement.elementvalue and it will have to match with element.elementname (which is where those A.HOVER.BGCOLOR things are stored) -- so this means that the entire result set would have to be, um, deconstructed into the appropriate variables, hence my use of #variables.bodybg# and #variables.bodyfontfam# above helps? rudy From roselli at earthlink.net Wed Jun 13 15:15:16 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Wed Jun 13 15:15:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] jeff, rudy.. In-Reply-To: <3B27A73F.8070304@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <200106132015.f5DKFCO26019@leo.evolt.org> > From: "Daniel J. Cody" [...] > if you'll notice, our stylesheets are like so: > > body > {background : #4F5C38 ; > font-family : Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif ; > font-size : 11px ; > line-height : 130% ; > > b, strong {font-weight : bold ; } > > cite > {font-style : normal ; } > and so on.. > > now, how do we get the values from the DB to match up as a stylesheet? > many of the attributes are named differently like > > body.background in the stylesheet but its body.bgcolor in oracle. i attempted to get around this issue by inserting suggested variable names for you into the original CSS document... go to view-source:http://evolt.org/evolt/isaac.css... body { background : #4F5C38 ; /* BodyBackgroundColor , BodyBackgroundImage */ font-family : Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif ; /* BodyTextFace */ font-size : 11px ; /* BodyTextSize (include units) */ line-height : 130% ; /* BodyTextLeading (as %) */ [...] strong.title { font-weight : bold ; /* -- */ font-family : Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif ; /* as BodyTextFace */ font-size : 15px ; } /* as H3TextSize (include units) */ pardon the horrible wrap above, but can you see what i was trying to do? ones that say 'as Foo' should use the value of the variable defined elsewhere... some are math (like 'as 1/5 H3TextSize (include units)', which means do the math and gather units, too)... some don't get changed (the ones that say '--')... the only caveat is that .jeff didn't like leaving a lot of that stuff interdependent (so that if the colors changed, the relationship wouldn't, like the sidebar color matching the notch)... i felt we should leave them interdependent, but, well, i'm not building the thing, so... does that help at all? From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 13 17:30:39 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 13 17:30:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] jeff, rudy.. In-Reply-To: <3B27A73F.8070304@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Daniel J. Cody : : remember that one time in oshkosh last : fall when we got really drunk and coded : the new evolt site? ;) :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ um, no, should i? how drunk did i get again? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : umm. i'm going through all the stylesheet : stuff cus i wanna make use of all the : stylesheets that people have been working : on so nicely, and i'm totally fucking lost :) :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ yes, there's not much in place to support the ideal solution(s) that have been discussed. it needs to be built from scratch. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : login on t.e.o and go here: : http://test.evolt.org/user/index.html?action=edit : : i've just put a lil something in there to show : the information in oracle regarding the schemes, : elements and schemeelement tables. it pulls up : the only scheme we currently have, default1 by : r937 and shows the values for that particular scheme :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ correct. in lieu of how i suggest it be handled, we may need to take another look at the structure. it might not require any changes to the existing architecture. then again, it might. however, since we're not currently using the architecture, now's the time to make that decision. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : now go to http://test.evolt.org/style/index.html and : you can see what the current session values are for : most of our stylesheet values(or schemeelements as : they're referer to in oracle) this somehow ties into : a shitload of session vars :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ yes, that is unwieldy in it's approach. i originally created that simply as a means of seeing the values and manipulating them in an effort to develop the proof-of-concept for changing styles on the fly. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : now, my question is this.. what if anything do these : have to do with eachother? frankley, the : /style/index.html page would be a bitch for anyone to : use. i want to have a dropdown list(like is on the : user page) of all available schemes/styles in the DB. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ agreed -- with the addition of a rendered page using that stylesheet so you get a representation of how it styles the site. however, i think a dropdown menu of available schemes is going to become unwieldy *very* quickly. for the purpose of browsing and selecting a style to use, we should really have some sort of skin gallery of sorts developed. that is separate from the listing of styles for the user that owns them for editing purposes though. in that case it should be a list of styles, probably in a drop down, that would then load up the variables/values into a mechanism to change them. this same mechanism should also be used to build new styles from scratch. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : the next question is, how do we get whats outputed in : http://test.evolt.org/user/index.html?action=edit to : actually change the style for the page? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ a *lot* of work -- honestly. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : if you'll notice, our stylesheets are like so: : : body { : background : #4F5C38; : font-family : Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; : font-size : 11px; : line-height : 130%; : } : : b, strong { : font-weight : bold; : } : : cite { : font-style : normal; : } : : : now, how do we get the values from the DB to match : up as a stylesheet? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ well, the values should directly mimic the possible css properties of the tag or class you're styling. group properties, those that hold more than one value for the purpose of grouping several properties (ie, background is a group property that represents background-color, background-image, background-repeat, etc.), should be evaluated to determine if it is desired that each individual property be editable. body.background-color body.background-image body.color body.margin body.padding body.font-family body.font-size body.font-weight body.font-style body.filter there are more i'm sure, but i'm having a hard time thinking what they might be. the resulting stylesheet that's built will differ slightly in the properties that are output. if there's no value set for the background-image, then there's no need to include it in the stylesheet. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : I'd just like to get working on this now that : thewife is nearning completion.. its a really : cool feature and a shame we've let it sit for : 9 months :( :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i think an evaluation of what exactly the specific functions this application should perform is necessary in order to build this project to a satisfactory state of completion. this evaluation should cover desired functionality, browser support for the creation/editing process, what exactly is editable, and what exactly is tied together for consistency sake. there's alot of decisions that need to be made and functional specifications that need to be decided on before we can continue. so, let's talk specifications and get all the details of it ironed out before we hit the development hard. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 13 17:41:24 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 13 17:41:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] jeff, rudy.. References: Message-ID: <3B27EA63.10905@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > um, no, should i? how drunk did i get again? hah! you were sticking your ass out my window! er. > yes, there's not much in place to support the ideal solution(s) that have > been discussed. it needs to be built from scratch. ok, thats basically what i wanted to hear. > currently using the architecture, now's the time to make that decision. true dat. > i think an evaluation of what exactly the specific functions this > application should perform is necessary in order to build this project to a > satisfactory state of completion. this evaluation should cover desired > functionality, browser support for the creation/editing process, what > exactly is editable, and what exactly is tied together for consistency sake. > there's alot of decisions that need to be made and functional specifications > that need to be decided on before we can continue. > > so, let's talk specifications and get all the details of it ironed out > before we hit the development hard. oy. wheres martin when you need him? ;) buy ya, i'll start thinking of some shit here. thanks .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 14 21:59:27 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 14 21:59:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: [BUG + FEATURE REQUEST] nagging hubby ... (was: Re: [Adwin] thewife..)] Message-ID: <3B29955F.8050208@starkmedia.com> sorry to bust this into thesite list, but i need to keep my filters sane. explanation coming soon(admin, move all thewife traffic to thesite in from now on pleeze) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [BUG + FEATURE REQUEST] nagging hubby ... (was: Re: [Admin] thewife..) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 02:29:19 -0000 From: "Elfur Logadottir" Reply-To: admin at lists.evolt.org To: References: <3B293D15.7090706 at starkmedia.com> From: "Daniel J. Cody" | everyones password has been reset to evolt | a step closer to resolution, with a few steps to go, these are comments from my first experience: A. We are still missing some features of a true admin section. the tool formerly known as wife is a task/project manager while we need also a 'official' manager - a manager that manages minutes, agenda items and other stuff related to meetings. - plus we need a calendar feature displaying our RL business (in conjunction with the meeting manager amongst other things) and we probably need more things that i will be able to remember when i've had some sleep. B. ok, I'm prompted with javascript to change my password, but can't because ... : 1. i had a hard time finding where to change my profile - should be a special link for me always visible to change my profile. 2. when i had found my profile i changed the pw, but due to validation it wouldn't save. 3. had to add birthday but i don't know which format is there YYMMDD, MMDDYY or DDMMYY or what. i'm assuming it's MMDDYY so i start typing 09/15 but have to end there since it's a 5 digit field. 4. putting dummy info in the rest of the fields, post and voila, get hit by this error: a.. Diagnostics: ODBC Error Code = 37000 (Syntax error or access violation) [MERANT][ODBC SQL Server Driver][SQL Server]Line 4: Incorrect syntax near ','. SQL = "UPDATE employees SET emp_email = 'elfur at members.evolt.org', emp_password = 'evolt', emp_ext = , emp_cell = '+354 698 9717', emp_phone = '+354 564 1700', emp_address = 'foo', emp_city = 'bar', emp_zip = 200, emp_birthday = '09/15/2001', emp_h_email = 'elfur at elfur.is', emp_notes = ' ', emp_activity = {ts '2001-06-14 21:22:47'} WHERE emp_id = 13" Data Source = "INTRANET" The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of (CFQUERY), occupying document position (2:1) to (2:57) in the template file /home/evolt/admin_html/employees/qry_emp_save.cfm. b.. DateTime: Thu Jun 14 21:22:47 2001 c.. Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0; DigExt) d.. Content: #Error.GeneratedContent# e.. Remote Address: 212.30.213.250 f.. Refering Document: http://admin.evolt.org/employees/ g.. Template: /home/evolt/admin_html/employees/index.cfm h.. Query String: Please email this page to dan. ___________________________________________________ Watch out for speeding buses on your bikeride, and remember to wear black!!! From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 14 22:23:14 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 14 22:23:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: [Adwin] error/strange linking] Message-ID: <3B299AF2.3020409@starkmedia.com> more filter funness. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Admin] error/strange linking Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:56:11 -0700 From: "A. Erickson" Reply-To: admin at lists.evolt.org To: "Evolt Admin" Logged Out. Clicked on "Submit" for an article. Got this error: You must be logged in to use this resource. Please use your username in the form on the right to log in. If you don't have a username, _register_ today! The word "register" is a link which goes to this page: http://www.evolt.org/user/#vars#?action=signup#and_tokens#, suggesting that I want to search for a user? That doesn't seem right. - amanda ___________________________________________________ Watch out for speeding buses on your bikeride, and remember to wear black!!! From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 14 22:29:29 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 14 22:29:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: Re: [Admin] tracking mail alerts from w.e.o] Message-ID: <3B299C6E.3010703@starkmedia.com> wanna hear a song??! ok! its called the admin list should keep website stuff on thesite list! weeeeeeee! ;) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Admin] tracking mail alerts from w.e.o Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:19:56 -0400 From: "Michele Foster" Reply-To: admin at lists.evolt.org Organization: WordPro Services To: References: <392c3339726c.39726c392c33 at augustine.gci.net> David, Interesting idea .. even just an ID number .. doesn't matter if it restarts each day or not. Might be as simple as adding another hidden field to the form. I think its pulling the userid from the session/cookie. I don't think that page is querying the db. Maybe we could add another table to the db that could act as a count (autogenerated) each time that page is hit? The numbers won't necessarily be sequential .. we'd only get the message with the ID when the page is submitted, not for each time it is viewed. I'm not sure the level of effort or complexity involved to add another table to the db. I like the idea .. I dunno how to implement it though. Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Mccreath" | Idle curiosity: Is there any way to number the alerts for a given day | in the subject line so they're a little easier to distinguish? | | David ___________________________________________________ Watch out for speeding buses on your bikeride, and remember to wear black!!! From mccreath at ak.net Thu Jun 14 22:31:14 2001 From: mccreath at ak.net (mccreath) Date: Thu Jun 14 22:31:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] testing aeo Message-ID: Okay. Entered a job all was cool, but I didn't put anything in the right hand number field cuz the left hand one had incremented to 0002, so I thought I would try it. Got a message to enter a number, so I put 0001 in the right hand field. After that, it posted. Everything else worked fine, but after I had posted the job, there was a message on the screen to update the verity (veritas?) index, and there's no trace of the job. Also, when I click on "Jobs I've posted" the header says "Jobs posted by [0]". that's all for now. David From bheerssen at visualbridge.tv Fri Jun 15 09:54:55 2001 From: bheerssen at visualbridge.tv (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Fri Jun 15 09:54:55 2001 Subject: [thesite] suggestion for l.e.o. Message-ID: <3B2A218C.2010304@visualbridge.tv> I was just searching through thelist archives, and while navigating through a particularly long thread, I found myself wishing for a link to the first and last posts for the thread. Can this be easily acheived? I am aware that you can go to the list of thread topics for the week and navigate that way, but that can be a little confusing/time consuming for some of the busier weeks - those with a lot of messages. Thanks. -Bruce From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Jun 15 14:30:51 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Jun 15 14:30:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] suggestion for l.e.o. References: <3B2A218C.2010304@visualbridge.tv> Message-ID: <3B2A7DC5.205@starkmedia.com> I'll look into it bruce :) Bruce Heerssen wrote: > I was just searching through thelist archives, and while navigating > through a particularly long thread, I found myself wishing for a link to > the first and last posts for the thread. Can this be easily acheived? From genghis at members.evolt.org Fri Jun 15 20:49:03 2001 From: genghis at members.evolt.org (John Handelaar) Date: Fri Jun 15 20:49:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] FW: [thelist] Using HTML email article Message-ID: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone grab this fast... though I'm sure someone already has. :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Thomas Granger > Sent: 15 June 2001 19:34 > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thelist] Using HTML email article > > > These are the first three really, really, really, > really, rough drafts of a 6 part article on HTML > email. Each articles needs to be 2-3x longer and with > more examples. > > I finished a 25 page report for a consulting company > and am adapting the more basic parts to a web article. > > Please help me flesh out any parts you think need to > be more interesting (it all needs it right now)..it is > just a basic skeleton. > > If you can think of any illustrations or personal > examples, I'd love to include them. > > Parts 1-3 (on my site..not quite ready for prime time) > > http://www.florentinedesign.com/articles/html_email.htm > http://www.florentinedesign.com/articles/html_email_uness.htm > http://www.florentinedesign.com/articles/html_email_java.htm > > Thanks, > > Tom > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > > --------------------------------------- > For unsubscribe and other options, including > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sat Jun 16 11:08:37 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sat Jun 16 11:08:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] FW: [thelist] Using HTML email article References: Message-ID: <005901c0f67e$4a87cd60$47019ad8@mef> John, djc got it ... :) Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Handelaar" | | !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | | Someone grab this fast... though I'm sure someone | already has. :-) | From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sat Jun 16 11:42:27 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sat Jun 16 11:42:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] beo - NS6.1 PR1 Message-ID: <00ab01c0f683$06c9a1c0$47019ad8@mef> Folks, Someone care to drop these into beo. http://home.netscape.com/browsers/6/index61pr.html Win, man and linux versions available. Thanks, Michele From djc at starkmedia.com Sat Jun 16 12:52:38 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Sat Jun 16 12:52:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] FW: [thelist] Using HTML email article References: Message-ID: <3B2B9B41.54909942@starkmedia.com> i already contacted him yesterday and he'll be putting them on evolt next week :) John Handelaar wrote: > > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Someone grab this fast... though I'm sure someone > already has. :-) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org > > [mailto:thelist-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Thomas Granger > > Sent: 15 June 2001 19:34 > > To: thelist at lists.evolt.org > > Subject: [thelist] Using HTML email article > > > > > > These are the first three really, really, really, > > really, rough drafts of a 6 part article on HTML > > email. Each articles needs to be 2-3x longer and with > > more examples. > > > > I finished a 25 page report for a consulting company > > and am adapting the more basic parts to a web article. > > > > Please help me flesh out any parts you think need to > > be more interesting (it all needs it right now)..it is > > just a basic skeleton. > > > > If you can think of any illustrations or personal > > examples, I'd love to include them. > > > > Parts 1-3 (on my site..not quite ready for prime time) > > > > http://www.florentinedesign.com/articles/html_email.htm > > http://www.florentinedesign.com/articles/html_email_uness.htm > > http://www.florentinedesign.com/articles/html_email_java.htm > > > > Thanks, > > > > Tom > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > > > > --------------------------------------- > > For unsubscribe and other options, including > > the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: > > http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ From djc at starkmedia.com Sat Jun 16 13:00:18 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Sat Jun 16 13:00:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: [Adwin] error/strange linking] References: <3B299AF2.3020409@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3B2B9D0C.9440FCFF@starkmedia.com> thanks amanda, fixed.. "Daniel J. Cody" wrote: > From: "A. Erickson" > Reply-To: admin at lists.evolt.org > To: "Evolt Admin" > > Logged Out. > > Clicked on "Submit" for an article. > > Got this error: > You must be logged in to use this resource. Please use your username in the > form on the right to log in. If you don't have a username, _register_ today! > > The word "register" is a link which goes to this page: > http://www.evolt.org/user/#vars#?action=signup#and_tokens#, suggesting that > I want to search for a user? > > That doesn't seem right. From djc at starkmedia.com Sat Jun 16 13:22:56 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Sat Jun 16 13:22:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: Re: [Admin] tracking mail alerts from w.e.o] References: <3B299C6E.3010703@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3B2BA258.EA3C23CA@starkmedia.com> done.. its using a 9 digit number right now that should be unique. this isn't the longest term solution, but thats ok cus mail will get moved back to thewife when thats done. its on t.e.o now.. i'll move it up later.. .djc. "Daniel J. Cody" wrote: > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Admin] tracking mail alerts from w.e.o > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:19:56 -0400 > From: "Michele Foster" > Reply-To: admin at lists.evolt.org > Organization: WordPro Services > To: > References: <392c3339726c.39726c392c33 at augustine.gci.net> > > David, > > Interesting idea .. even just an ID number .. doesn't matter if it restarts > each day or not. > > Might be as simple as adding another hidden field to the form. I think its > pulling the userid from the session/cookie. I don't think that page is > querying the db. Maybe we could add another table to the db that could act > as a count (autogenerated) each time that page is hit? The numbers won't > necessarily be sequential .. we'd only get the message with the ID when the > page is submitted, not for each time it is viewed. I'm not sure the level > of effort or complexity involved to add another table to the db. > > I like the idea .. I dunno how to implement it though. > > Michele > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Mccreath" > > | Idle curiosity: Is there any way to number the alerts for a given day > | in the subject line so they're a little easier to distinguish? > | > | David From djc at starkmedia.com Sat Jun 16 13:37:38 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Sat Jun 16 13:37:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] beo - NS6.1 PR1 References: <00ab01c0f683$06c9a1c0$47019ad8@mef> Message-ID: <3B2BA5CC.632EF166@starkmedia.com> done, thanks for the reminder :) Michele Foster wrote: > > Folks, > > Someone care to drop these into beo. > > http://home.netscape.com/browsers/6/index61pr.html > > Win, man and linux versions available. From djc at starkmedia.com Sat Jun 16 13:45:43 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Sat Jun 16 13:45:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: Dean, Dan, Jeff .. please read .... Re: [Admin] Mail Alert! - 14-Jun-2001 References: <200106142118.PAA01936@alice.monkeyland.ca> <017101c0f51a$37620760$0a0c9ad8@mef> Message-ID: <3B2BA7B2.4D5C8032@starkmedia.com> mich - I think this is what i was telling you about thurs night.. Looks like his userid # got wacked out when i was moving the production databases from oracular to here. he has a sequence for his userid thats 'odd' in that its way higher than what it should be.. :) I'm going to overwrite the test DB with a copy of the latest one anyways and we'll see if that fixes the prob.. Michele Foster wrote: > > Dan, Dean, > > It may very well not be the same problem. I'm sure he'll let us know if he > gets the error again. > > Dan .. if ya logout of weo or teo, log in as Joethetester, pw: michele .. > then click submit an article, you'll see the error I was referring too... > sounded exactly like what Michael had said happened to him. Duplicated in > IE and NS and on teo and weo. Jeff said something about the sessionID not > being set .. over my head . > > Thanks guys, > > Michele > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dean Mah" > > | Mike was able to get back into the site. I don't think that he's > | tried to resubmit the article yet. I told him the best thing to do > | was work on it locally and then cut-and-paste it all in when he was > | ready. > | > | Dean > | > | > | Daniel J. Cody writes: > | > | > mich, this was probably because his session timed out or something like > | > that.. i thought i'd fixed that particular problem, but maybe not.. > | > > | > i'll look into it this weekend > | > > | > Michele Foster wrote: > | > > | > > Dean, > | > > > | > > Hang on a second ..... or if I'm too late it doesn't matter. > | > > > | > > His problem is ringing VERY familiar bells from an error mentioned > last > | > > week. > | > > > | > > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-June/001679.html (plus two > | > > additional messages in the thread) > | > > > | > > Dean, can you find out what his username and password are that he > signed up > | > > with? > | > > > | > > I don't like the sound of this problem .. > > ___________________________________________________ > Watch out for speeding buses on your bikeride, and > remember to wear black!!! From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sat Jun 16 14:04:19 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sat Jun 16 14:04:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: Dean, Dan, Jeff .. please read .... Re: [Admin] Mail Alert! - 14-Jun-2001 References: <200106142118.PAA01936@alice.monkeyland.ca> <017101c0f51a$37620760$0a0c9ad8@mef> <3B2BA7B2.4D5C8032@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <013c01c0f696$d776fa80$47019ad8@mef> Dan, Sounds good .. you test Michael's id too .. or more specifically are there any other userid's that are way higher than they should be? I don't remember what you were saying Thursday .. but I have no clue why I don't remember M ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" | mich - | | I think this is what i was telling you about thurs night.. Looks like | his userid # got wacked out when i was moving the production databases | from oracular to here. | | he has a sequence for his userid thats 'odd' in that its way higher than | what it should be.. :) | | I'm going to overwrite the test DB with a copy of the latest one anyways | and we'll see if that fixes the prob.. | From martin at easyweb.co.uk Sat Jun 16 18:37:36 2001 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Sat Jun 16 18:37:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] palm screenshots of weo Message-ID: <0125c0837231061PCOW025M@blueyonder.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As promised months back, here are some screenshots of weo from my Palm, taken while in the pub at beervolt London last week. http://members.evolt.org/martin/screenshots/palm.gif http://members.evolt.org/martin/screenshots/palm_full.gif (the full one is a stuck together version of what you get when you page down - left the scrollbars in for reference) Looks pretty damn good, Jeff. One thing - the logo's a real greyscale image on the Palm template, isn't it? It certainly shows up as such on a colour PalmOS (Mike King had his colour Handspring & Visorphone with him). Adrian - wanna stick these in your redesign article? Cheers Martin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use Comment: Content after the signature block is *not* signed iQA/AwUBOyvtFXHoHnCoNczLEQJiPwCfeBeK195Eou9BQKn1bcMQ1UdfnSwAoMwu VMT8BilXmBfa7NIxnmNs+TlQ =0ivc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sat Jun 16 19:24:06 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sat Jun 16 19:24:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] Images Missing .... Message-ID: <025101c0f6c3$854ac7a0$47019ad8@mef> Hey Dan, Don't yell at me Those darn images got missed again http://www.evolt.org/evolt_images/index.html. *ducks* Michele From roselli at earthlink.net Sat Jun 16 20:52:57 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Sat Jun 16 20:52:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] palm screenshots of weo In-Reply-To: <0125c0837231061PCOW025M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <3B2BD498.31659.436B2A7@localhost> > From: Martin Burns [...] > Adrian - wanna stick these in your redesign article? yes, i'll just have to do some choppy-chop... From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Jun 18 10:31:33 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Jun 18 10:31:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] Images Missing .... References: <025101c0f6c3$854ac7a0$47019ad8@mef> Message-ID: <3B2E1D37.9010201@starkmedia.com> erf. it only takes *me* three times to learn to make the change on t.e.o first :) .djc. Michele Foster wrote: > Hey Dan, > > Don't yell at me > > Those darn images got missed again > http://www.evolt.org/evolt_images/index.html. > > *ducks* > > Michele > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > From dsmah at home.com Mon Jun 18 10:36:53 2001 From: dsmah at home.com (Dean Mah) Date: Mon Jun 18 10:36:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database Message-ID: <200106181538.JAA02557@alice.monkeyland.ca> What's the status of getting thetips into the database? What needs to be done? Where are thetips going to be stored? I see that there is a table called 'thetips' in the database, are they going to be stored there, or is there going to be a separate category put in place. Are we sync'ing thelist membership and weo membership? Or does someone providing a tip get inserting into the weo database if they don't already exist? This has been outstanding for a while now, a lot of that my fault, so let's fast track this through the process. :) Or at least give me enough information so that I can get something done on it. Dean From seth at sethbienek.com Mon Jun 18 10:47:49 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Mon Jun 18 10:47:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database In-Reply-To: <200106181538.JAA02557@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: <000b01c0f80d$6dd6a260$2f01010a@dti2> Hi Dean, I have written a process to do this.. The only problem thus far is reading in the 50+ MB mail archive file and processing the whole thing without any exceptions. I guess I should explain that. I wrote a custom tag to parse the tips, and another to parse the mail archive into a the database. The idea is to archive the messages first, then roll through the message bodies from the database (instead of parsing throughbt that huge mail archive file) and archiving the tips into a second database. This will also allow us to relate the tips, messages, and author records to each other (which is a very cool thing).. The process runs fine against a sample file and then bombs against the full archive. It's something I have been working on incrementally and have been planning on finishing; I will put some time into it today and let you know where it stands this evening. Should give me a little time to fully evaluate the situation. Coolio? Seth > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Dean Mah > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 10:39 AM > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thesite] thetips database > > > What's the status of getting thetips into the database? > > What needs to be done? > > Where are thetips going to be stored? I see that there is a table > called 'thetips' in the database, are they going to be stored there, > or is there going to be a separate category put in place. Are we > sync'ing thelist membership and weo membership? Or does someone > providing a tip get inserting into the weo database if they don't > already exist? > > This has been outstanding for a while now, a lot of that my fault, so > let's fast track this through the process. :) Or at least give me > enough information so that I can get something done on it. > > Dean > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > > From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Jun 18 10:56:55 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Jun 18 10:56:55 2001 Subject: [thesite] updated w.e.o and t.e.o Message-ID: <3B2E2328.2010800@starkmedia.com> changes jeff and i have made over the past couple days are up live on w.e.o now. i also updated the evolttest DB so that test.evolt.org is displaying a more uptodate version of data and stuff. admins, i'm going to stop sending this kind of stuff to the admin list cus it doesn't relate, fucks up my filters, and just adds noise.. :) thanks.. lemme know if anyone spots probs..(the images page should always work now too mich ;) .djc. From dsmah at home.com Mon Jun 18 11:08:39 2001 From: dsmah at home.com (Dean Mah) Date: Mon Jun 18 11:08:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database In-Reply-To: <000b01c0f80d$6dd6a260$2f01010a@dti2> from "Seth Bienek" at Jun 18, 2001 10:43:32 AM Message-ID: <200106181610.KAA02624@alice.monkeyland.ca> Okay, so the problem that you are having is getting the whole e-mail message into the database? And you are storing the entire e-mail message into 'thetips' table? I'm assuming that after you have messages that contain tips in 'thetips' table, they will moved into the 'content' table later, correct? Dean Seth Bienek writes: > I have written a process to do this.. The only problem thus far is > reading in the 50+ MB mail archive file and processing the whole > thing without any exceptions. > > I guess I should explain that. I wrote a custom tag to parse the > tips, and another to parse the mail archive into a the database. > The idea is to archive the messages first, then roll through the > message bodies from the database (instead of parsing throughbt that > huge mail archive file) and archiving the tips into a second > database. This will also allow us to relate the tips, messages, and > author records to each other (which is a very cool thing).. > > The process runs fine against a sample file and then bombs against > the full archive. It's something I have been working on > incrementally and have been planning on finishing; I will put some > time into it today and let you know where it stands this evening. > Should give me a little time to fully evaluate the situation. > > Coolio? From seth at sethbienek.com Mon Jun 18 11:49:37 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Mon Jun 18 11:49:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database In-Reply-To: <200106181610.KAA02624@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: <001501c0f816$12272c60$2f01010a@dti2> Hey Dean, > Okay, so the problem that you are having is getting the whole e-mail > message into the database? Nope. The database is fine. The problem is parsing the entire .mbox archive (over 50 meg) without any errors. And since it's so memory and processor-intensive, I can only run the template against the entire archive every couple of hours, or else there ends up being overlapping threads and other issues.. Once the initial database population is done, there shouldn't be any more problems, but that first step is the big one. I have some ideas that I will test today, and I'll let you know if I can't get it squared away by this evening. > I'm assuming that after you have > messages that contain tips in 'thetips' table, they will moved into > the 'content' table later, correct? There was a thread regarding this earlier on this list (it's in the archives somewhere). I think we want to get the data into it's own table first, then let Rudy (or some other db genius) massage it into the 'content' table. As far the structure of 'thetips' as it is now, I haven't looked at it but I'm sure it will need to be reworked. HTH, Seth From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Jun 18 12:19:34 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Jun 18 12:19:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database References: <001501c0f816$12272c60$2f01010a@dti2> Message-ID: <3B2E3689.4010801@starkmedia.com> Seth Bienek wrote: > Hey Dean, > > >>Okay, so the problem that you are having is getting the whole e-mail >>message into the database? >> > > Nope. The database is fine. The problem is parsing the entire .mbox archive (over 50 meg) without any errors. And since it's so memory and processor-intensive, I can only run the template against the entire archive every couple of hours, or else there ends up being overlapping threads and other issues.. Once the initial database population is done, there shouldn't be any more problems, but that first step is the big one. > > I have some ideas that I will test today, and I'll let you know if I can't get it squared away by this evening. I thinnk I may have mentioned this before seth, but rather than parsing that big ass mbox file, there are all those little weekly text files you can parse. e.g. http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20010611.txt these are split up into easy to digest 500Kb - 1Mb weekly files. they're also what deans tip harvester is using to extract shit now. this would also solve having to parse the 50Mb file everytime you wanted to update the DB. just a thought.. > As far the structure of 'thetips' as it is now, I haven't looked at it but I'm sure it will need to be reworked. CREATE TABLE THETIPS ( TIP_ID NUMBER (8) NOT NULL, TIP_DATE DATE NOT NULL, AUTHOR_ID NUMBER (8), TIP_TYPE VARCHAR2 (200), AUTHOR VARCHAR2 (50), BODY LONG, PRIMARY KEY ( TIP_ID ) if you guys need anything else, please lemme know :) .djc. From seth at sethbienek.com Mon Jun 18 13:35:52 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Mon Jun 18 13:35:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database In-Reply-To: <3B2E3689.4010801@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <000b01c0f824$d989c610$2f01010a@dti2> Hey Dan, > I thinnk I may have mentioned this before seth, but rather than parsing > that big ass mbox file, there are all those little weekly text files you > can parse. e.g. http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20010611.txt That's the first time I can remember seeing it mentioned. But after having a look at it, I'd like to keep it open as a 'plan b' option. I'd like to keep the components of the message intact, including the header information, but if this doesn't pan out then I will definitely go to the .txt files. Sure looks easier. But then how much fun is 'easy'? :) Uh.. Unless you're talking about, like, chicks and stuff. > this would also solve having to parse the 50Mb file everytime you wanted > to update the DB. just a thought.. I have a semi-solution for this - storing the cursor position, but the file would still have to be read into memory every time. What produces this text file? Could it's format be altered? Is it produced in a batch or on-the-fly? (this is going somewhere, I promise). There's a little light bulb floating over my head... Seth > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody > Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 12:13 PM > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thesite] thetips database > > > > > Seth Bienek wrote: > > > Hey Dean, > > > > > >>Okay, so the problem that you are having is getting the whole e-mail > >>message into the database? > >> > > > > Nope. The database is fine. The problem is parsing the entire > .mbox archive (over 50 meg) without any errors. And since it's > so memory and processor-intensive, I can only run the template > against the entire archive every couple of hours, or else there > ends up being overlapping threads and other issues.. Once the > initial database population is done, there shouldn't be any more > problems, but that first step is the big one. > > > > I have some ideas that I will test today, and I'll let you know > if I can't get it squared away by this evening. > > > I thinnk I may have mentioned this before seth, but rather than parsing > that big ass mbox file, there are all those little weekly text files you > can parse. e.g. http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20010611.txt > > these are split up into easy to digest 500Kb - 1Mb weekly files. they're > also what deans tip harvester is using to extract shit now. > > this would also solve having to parse the 50Mb file everytime you wanted > to update the DB. just a thought.. > > > > As far the structure of 'thetips' as it is now, I haven't > looked at it but I'm sure it will need to be reworked. > > > CREATE TABLE THETIPS ( > TIP_ID NUMBER (8) NOT NULL, > TIP_DATE DATE NOT NULL, > AUTHOR_ID NUMBER (8), > TIP_TYPE VARCHAR2 (200), > AUTHOR VARCHAR2 (50), > BODY LONG, > PRIMARY KEY ( TIP_ID ) > > if you guys need anything else, please lemme know :) > > .djc. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > > From seth at sethbienek.com Mon Jun 18 13:40:17 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Mon Jun 18 13:40:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database In-Reply-To: <000b01c0f824$d989c610$2f01010a@dti2> Message-ID: <000c01c0f825$84c2a100$2f01010a@dti2> I just re-read my last message, and I think there's a section that could be mis-understood: > I have a semi-solution for this - storing the cursor position, > but the file would still have to be read into memory every time. > What produces this text file? What I meant is, what produces the smaller, weekly files. Not the big-ass .mbox file. Just, uh, clearing that up. Yeah. Seth From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Jun 18 14:55:21 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Jun 18 14:55:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database References: <000c01c0f825$84c2a100$2f01010a@dti2> Message-ID: <3B2E5B05.40205@starkmedia.com> Seth Bienek wrote: > I just re-read my last message, and I think there's a section that could be mis-understood: > > >>I have a semi-solution for this - storing the cursor position, >>but the file would still have to be read into memory every time. >>What produces this text file? >> > > What I meant is, what produces the smaller, weekly files. Not the big-ass .mbox file. the archiving shit does all that lemme see if i find anything to help you out. regarless though, you're going to have to read that 50Mb file at least once for the initial load if you go plan A .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Jun 18 14:59:12 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Jun 18 14:59:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database References: <000c01c0f825$84c2a100$2f01010a@dti2> <3B2E5B05.40205@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3B2E5BF0.2050907@starkmedia.com> you're running it right now aren't you? its totally slowing down my irc session ;) Daniel J. Cody wrote: > > > Seth Bienek wrote: > >> I just re-read my last message, and I think there's a section that >> could be mis-understood: >> >> >>> I have a semi-solution for this - storing the cursor position, but >>> the file would still have to be read into memory every time. What >>> produces this text file? >>> >> >> What I meant is, what produces the smaller, weekly files. Not the >> big-ass .mbox file. > > > > the archiving shit does all that > > lemme see if i find anything to help you out. > > regarless though, you're going to have to read that 50Mb file at least > once for the initial load if you go plan A > > .djc. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ From seth at sethbienek.com Mon Jun 18 15:10:17 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Mon Jun 18 15:10:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database In-Reply-To: <3B2E5BF0.2050907@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <000e01c0f832$14e6b0d0$2f01010a@dti2> > its totally slowing down my irc session ;) Aww, boo hoo. :) You'll be happy when it's done. Besides, you told me I could spank that machine. :) When are we going to CF5? Did you know that the *nix flavors of CF5 run over 300% faster than 4.5? Seth From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Jun 18 15:13:42 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Jun 18 15:13:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database References: <000e01c0f832$14e6b0d0$2f01010a@dti2> Message-ID: <3B2E5F56.2080103@starkmedia.com> When we get Macromedia to donate a copy :) I heard they run a lot faster, but only because they cache the shit out of everything, thereforeusing up about 300% more memory :) i'd like to try it out, and when it actually ships for linux this august i'll start bugging people at MM about it(we use enterprise edition cus the native oracle drivers) .djc. Seth Bienek wrote: >>its totally slowing down my irc session ;) > When are we going to CF5? Did you know that the *nix flavors of CF5 run over 300% faster than 4.5? From seth at sethbienek.com Mon Jun 18 18:09:19 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Mon Jun 18 18:09:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database In-Reply-To: <3B2E5F56.2080103@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <002301c0f84b$15c2d6a0$2f01010a@dti2> ..Ahh, the sweet smell of success.. Things are running.. I will check status and give an update in the morning. Regards, Seth ----------------------------------- Seth Bienek Digitaris Technologies, Inc. tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 fax (972) 690-0617 icq 7673959 ----------------------------------- From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Jun 19 18:43:42 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Jun 19 18:43:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] oops .. thebot Message-ID: <00d001c0f919$6907ee80$81079ad8@mef> Ummm.. I told thebot to shut up and he vanished. :( oops Sorry John and Dean .. can you guys bring him back to life? Really, tis not my fault ... he was being bad.. honest. Michele From john at userfrenzy.com Wed Jun 20 08:54:16 2001 From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar) Date: Wed Jun 20 08:54:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] oops .. thebot In-Reply-To: <00d001c0f919$6907ee80$81079ad8@mef> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Michele Foster > Sent: 20 June 2001 00:42 > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thesite] oops .. thebot > > > Ummm.. I told thebot to shut up and he vanished. :( > > oops He LIVES! MWAHAHAHA!! ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 7209 4117 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 20 14:19:34 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 20 14:19:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database References: <002301c0f84b$15c2d6a0$2f01010a@dti2> Message-ID: <3B30F5BF.8020808@starkmedia.com> i notice its still running? whats the word? Seth Bienek wrote: > ..Ahh, the sweet smell of success.. > > Things are running.. I will check status and give an update in the morning. > > Regards, > > Seth > ----------------------------------- > Seth Bienek > Digitaris Technologies, Inc. > tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 > fax (972) 690-0617 > icq 7673959 > ----------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > From seth at sethbienek.com Wed Jun 20 14:34:54 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Wed Jun 20 14:34:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database In-Reply-To: <3B30F5BF.8020808@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <001b01c0f9bf$8c13ee00$2f01010a@dti2> > i notice its still running? whats the word? The Bird is the word! The template's working great. I cleaned up the testing db records this morning and started kicking the mbox file into the empty database about 3 hours ago.. It moves messages into the database in chunk sizes that you specify on the command line. I am planning on importing 1000 messages a day unless I'm told otherwise. That should just slow the server down for a couple of hours at a time... The first 1000 is going in now (plus 250 from smaller batches earlier today). Interestingly enough, the template runs several times faster on my machine at home (which is a real POS, BTW) than on LEO.. The bottleneck isn't the database as we figured, but rather the parsing.. It should be pegging the processor and using quite a bit of memory, then cleaning up after it runs.. Any thoughts/concerns/comments? Anyone? Seth ----------------------------------- Seth Bienek Digitaris Technologies, Inc. tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 fax (972) 690-0617 icq 7673959 ----------------------------------- From sgd at ti3.com Wed Jun 20 14:53:47 2001 From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter) Date: Wed Jun 20 14:53:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database Message-ID: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB32111724930D2@gate.ti3.com> > Any thoughts/concerns/comments? Anyone? > I'd be curious why a CF template is doing this (instead of a perl script er something), but hell, it's running. Rock fuckin on. Seth, we /ever/ get together in person and I'm getting your first few =) sgd From seth at sethbienek.com Wed Jun 20 15:06:18 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Wed Jun 20 15:06:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] thetips database In-Reply-To: <8C8B8745C0FE7A43BFA6CABAB32111724930D2@gate.ti3.com> Message-ID: <001d01c0f9c3$dc8f9470$2f01010a@dti2> > I'd be curious why a CF template is doing this (instead of a perl As big of a proponent as I am of using the right tool for the job, the answer to this question is that a) I don't know perl (yeah, I suck, I know), and b)It stemmed from the Tip parser project, which was to be in CF (see 'a'), and 3) it looked like fun. > something), but hell, it's running. Slowly, but nevertheless, it is, in fact, running. I will try some tuning down the road, and it'll run alot better on CF5 I'm sure (Raymond is going to get Macromedia to donate a copy of Enterprise to us! Right, Raymond? ;) > Seth, we /ever/ get > together in person and I'm getting your first few =) Yes! And THAT rules. Regards, Seth ----------------------------------- Seth Bienek Digitaris Technologies, Inc. tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 fax (972) 690-0617 icq 7673959 ----------------------------------- From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 20 16:49:01 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 20 16:49:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: [BUG + FEATURE REQUEST] thewife References: <3B29955F.8050208@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3B3118CA.5000905@starkmedia.com> elfur et all.. first off, sorry about putting this out there for you guys before it was ready.. there was a lot of shit that wasn't working and i shoulda waited. that said, give it a whirl now. all the admins are in there and the passwords are the same as w.e.o - try updating your info(NOT your password yet though!!!!) and adding jobs.. if anyone on thesite wants a login, just lemme know and i'll add you in there so you can play around too. there are probably a few of you who aren't on admin that will have access to this from day 1 cus you're work on previous and current evolt projects. if anyone does play on it tonite, please report shit back that doesn't work or that you think should be fixed to thesite and include a [bug] in the subject if you'd be so kind :) elfur, david, ron, whoever else: the HTML is fucking *brutal* :) when i'm gone this weekend, maybe you guys could fix that up? > From: "Elfur Logadottir" > also a 'official' manager - a manager that manages minutes, agenda items > and other stuff related to meetings. - plus we need a calendar feature > displaying our RL business (in conjunction with the meeting manager amongst its got all the calendar stuff already(although its not the most full featured. i'll be adding improvements once its working).. what kinda stuff do you want in there for secretary duties ? just lemem knwo and i'll roll it in like I did walkers voting app > B. ok, I'm prompted with javascript to change my password, but can't > because ... : fixed. > 1. i had a hard time finding where to change my profile - should be a > special link for me always visible to change my profile. acked > 2. when i had found my profile i changed the pw, but due to validation it > wouldn't save. fixed > 3. had to add birthday but i don't know which format is there YYMMDD, > MMDDYY or DDMMYY or what. i'm assuming it's MMDDYY so i start typing 09/15 > but have to end there since it's a 5 digit field. stupid thinking by me :) fixed now > 4. putting dummy info in the rest of the fields, post and voila, get hit by > this error: fixed > > a.. Diagnostics: > ODBC Error Code = 37000 (Syntax error or access violation) > > [MERANT][ODBC SQL Server Driver][SQL Server]Line 4: Incorrect syntax near astute observer mccreath noticed that i'm using SQL server here.. if anyone else is wondering, i'm testing out some replication shit between it and oracle and thought this would be a good place to do it :) .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 00:47:01 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 00:47:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] recent evolt problems.. Message-ID: <3B31894C.8000502@starkmedia.com> hey folks - this is gonna be short and sweet.. around 6pm cst tonite the server that hosts the evolt mailing lists(lists.evolt.org), browsers/directory/admin/ and members.evolt.org went down. at first glance and without giving shit away, it looks like someone exploited a members.evolt.org account with a PHP script. for those that dont know, we host around 600 websites for evolt members and offer them PHP, cold fusion, cgi and a number of other resources to further their web development skills.. apparently someone somehow took advantage of that generosity and used a PHP script to wipe out everyone elses accounts. this affects *all* members.evolt.org accounts, including lists,directory,admin, and browsers.evolt.org. untill i figure out how they got the script to wipe a couple hundred GB's of data, i've shut the web and db servers and all other non-essential services on that machine down. www.evolt.org is fine and working however, as its on a seperate system. the evolt mailing lists are now up and fine as well when i'm done pouring over logfiles and figuring out just how it happened, data will be restored from a backup that was made on wednesday. bearing my frustration here and trying not to sound like an asshole to everyone else, but i'm sure whoever it was that pulled this little stunt off is on one of our lists, which is why i'm sending this to everyone. i'd just like to point out to this person that the log files you 'wiped out' just happened to also get spooled to a fucking printer. i've already got an ip and a more than helpful sys admin from your isp with radius logs in his hands. on the phone. right now. apologies to everyone else for the downtime this evening, sorry it took so long(milaukee beervolt tonite), everything should be smurfy in the morning. .djc. From elfur at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 21 11:31:27 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Jun 21 11:31:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: [BUG + FEATURE REQUEST] thewife References: <3B29955F.8050208@starkmedia.com> <3B3118CA.5000905@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <0ec501c0fa6f$0fef51b0$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: "Daniel J. Cody" | elfur et all.. | | first off, sorry about putting this out there for you guys before it was | ready.. hey, that's ok, we're the testing spuds anyway. | there was a lot of shit that wasn't working and i shoulda | waited. that said, give it a whirl now. so i guess this is on hold again :) you'll just holler whenever you've got time to put it up again (but please - for your own sanity - don't do it until you get back from Toronto) *hugs* *the icelandic one* From seth at sethbienek.com Thu Jun 21 11:40:22 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Thu Jun 21 11:40:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] recent evolt problems.. In-Reply-To: <3B31894C.8000502@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <000f01c0fa6f$fffe65b0$2f01010a@dti2> > lists(lists.evolt.org), browsers/directory/admin/ and members.evolt.org went down. DOH! > someone exploited a members.evolt.org account with a PHP script. DOH! DOH! > i've shut the web and db servers and all other non-essential services > on that machine down. DOH! DOH! DOH! Just when I was on the verge of making thelist AND thetips my bitch.. (or is that 'bitches'? 'bitchen'? You get the point..) -whimper- At least the code's still there. :) Hey Dan, When you find the perpetrator are you going to expose them so we can scatter their entrails all over the `net? ;> Seth (eternally optimistic) ----------------------------------- Seth Bienek Digitaris Technologies, Inc. tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 fax (972) 690-0617 icq 7673959 ----------------------------------- From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 12:10:17 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 12:10:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: [BUG + FEATURE REQUEST] thewife References: <3B29955F.8050208@starkmedia.com> <3B3118CA.5000905@starkmedia.com> <0ec501c0fa6f$0fef51b0$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: <3B322894.6080804@starkmedia.com> no no!! use it *now* :) play, test, break.. its all mostly working. also, do you think you'll have time this weekend to start cleaning up my very very shitty HTML and color selections?(did you know you can define your own color scheme on admin.evolt.org? :) Elfur Logadottir wrote: > | there was a lot of shit that wasn't working and i shoulda > | waited. that said, give it a whirl now. > > so i guess this is on hold again :) > > you'll just holler whenever you've got time to put it up again > (but please - for your own sanity - don't do it until you get back from > Toronto) From elfur at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 21 12:20:23 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Jun 21 12:20:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Fwd: [BUG + FEATURE REQUEST] thewife References: <3B29955F.8050208@starkmedia.com> <3B3118CA.5000905@starkmedia.com> <0ec501c0fa6f$0fef51b0$40aefea9@DWARFS> <3B322894.6080804@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <0f2901c0fa75$e6af9c40$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: "Daniel J. Cody" | no no!! use it *now* :) play, test, break.. its all mostly working. oh, is it up again ... i hadn't even tried, just got some email this morning saying that it wasn't up at all :) | also, do you think you'll have time this weekend to start cleaning up my | very very shitty HTML and color selections? sure, do i already have the login ? | (did you know you can define | your own color scheme on admin.evolt.org? :) i do know :) *the helping one* From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Jun 21 12:27:53 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Jun 21 12:27:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug] TheWife: Error from voting app. Message-ID: <016c01c0fa77$05da03c0$f7eda1d1@mef> Home Jobs Timesheets Websites Contacts Users Reference Logout Error! Diagnostics: An error occurred while evaluating the expression: "#data#" Error near line 28, column 46. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Error resolving parameter DATA ColdFusion was unable to determine the value of the parameter. This problem is very likely due to the fact that either: You have misspelled the parameter name, or You have not specified a QUERY attribute for a CFOUTPUT, CFMAIL, or CFTABLE tag. The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of (CFQUERY), occupying document position (28:2) to (28:96) in the template file /home/evolt/admin_html/vote/add.cfm. DateTime: Thu Jun 21 12:25:47 2001 Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) Content: #Error.GeneratedContent# Remote Address: 209.161.233.110 Refering Document: http://admin.evolt.org/vote/index.cfm?menu=vote&question_id=8 Template: /home/evolt/admin_html/vote/add.cfm Query String: menu=response&what=response&question_id=8 Please email this page to dan. From mccreath at ak.net Thu Jun 21 12:30:43 2001 From: mccreath at ak.net (David Mccreath) Date: Thu Jun 21 12:30:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] cleaning up a.e.o's HTML Message-ID: <1596ff1575a3.1575a31596ff@augustine.gci.net> Hey, Dan -- How for we getting to many pages of needing cleanings? Hm? Anybody interested in helping, please send a shout out in the next day or two so we can coordinate this clean-up. It worked really well when we divied up pages/directories for the w.e.o clean-up just before the launch last year. I think there are some improvements to be made in the interface, but it's usable enough now that I'd rather see it cleaned and in use and we can improve the interface over the next little while. Props to Dan for busting his ass on this. I think it's going to help in ways yet unimagined ... David From elfur at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 21 12:36:28 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Jun 21 12:36:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] cleaning up a.e.o's HTML References: <1596ff1575a3.1575a31596ff@augustine.gci.net> Message-ID: <0f4d01c0fa78$2455dbc0$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: "David Mccreath" | Hey, Dan -- | | How for we getting to many pages of needing cleanings? Hm? ??? sorry, i'm the daft one, what do you mean? | Anybody interested in helping, please send a shout out in the next day SHOUT OUT :) | Props to Dan for busting his ass on this. I think it's going to help in | ways yet unimagined ... +10.00000000000 *the helping one* From elfur at elfur.is Thu Jun 21 12:38:13 2001 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Jun 21 12:38:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] [BUG] error when creating a new job Message-ID: <0f5201c0fa78$631390a0$40aefea9@DWARFS> got an error when posting a job creation - how is it with job numbers - do i really have to select a number - can't we just make that automatic, please. thanks *the elfing one* ---------- error belowe ----------- Diagnostics: An error occurred while evaluating the expression: #NumberFormat(attributes.client_number,'0000')# Error near line 18, column 52. Parameter 1 of function NumberFormat which is now "-2173-1" must be a number The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of (#NumberFormat(attributes.client_number,'0000')#), occupying document position (18:51) to (18:97) in the template file /home/evolt/admin_html/jobs/edit/dsp_edit.cfm. DateTime: Thu Jun 21 12:27:02 2001 Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0; DigExt) Content: #Error.GeneratedContent# Remote Address: 212.30.213.250 Refering Document: http://admin.evolt.org/jobs/ Template: /home/evolt/admin_html/jobs/index.cfm Query String: Please email this page to dan. From elfur at elfur.is Thu Jun 21 12:44:54 2001 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Jun 21 12:44:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] [a.e.o] hmm, i can't see the event i created Message-ID: <0f7601c0fa79$510ff140$40aefea9@DWARFS> so i created an event - think i chose the user staff, not sure. the event was for tomorrow and had the name evolt gettogether or something ... but i can't see it anywhere ... so i *must* have done something wrong here :) thanks *the 'helping' one* From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Jun 21 12:46:09 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Jun 21 12:46:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] TheWife: Websites, Clients, Projects ? Message-ID: <017e01c0fa79$8f9271e0$f7eda1d1@mef> Dan, This section .. why is seth's contact info showing up at the bottom of each of the web site pages? Is this section set to Priv level? Too much info.. IMHO. Why do we have both client and website? And, isn't there a lot of stuff that we do/needs to be done, that isn't for a website, that is for evolt.org itself? I may not be seeing what your intent is with client and/or websites. e.g. if I want to see all the jobs that are "writing text" in nature .. how would I do that? I'm not being clear .. I guess what's throwing me off is that everything is showing up on the calendar as evolt.org. But, I think it would be better if things show up as what they are .. e.g. admin meeting June 30th, minutes from meeting due July 7th, faq article on whatever due 12th July, vote for whatever_issue due 6th July. ?? Maybe this will help, larger Project/Categorization: BOD stuff, Admin stuff, FAQ stuff, leo stuff (including ? Something's missing .. I just can't quite put my finger on what it is. btw, you have a cookie set up? I didn't have to log in .. or perhaps it remembered from weo? Michele From mccreath at ak.net Thu Jun 21 12:46:44 2001 From: mccreath at ak.net (David Mccreath) Date: Thu Jun 21 12:46:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] cleaning up a.e.o's HTML Message-ID: <15c84d15987c.15987c15c84d@augustine.gci.net> From: "Elfur Logadottir" > From: "David Mccreath" > > | How for we getting to many pages of needing cleanings? Hm? > > ??? > sorry, i'm the daft one, what do you mean? heh ... sorry ... it's solstice which means I haven't seen the dark for several months now. I'm daffy with sunlight. You of all people on this list should know what I'm talking about, Ms. Iceland. ;p What I meant was: Dan, how do we access the files that need to be cleaned up? David From elfur at elfur.is Thu Jun 21 12:58:44 2001 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Jun 21 12:58:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] [a.e.o] [bug] js. error when browsing contacts Message-ID: <0fa501c0fa7b$403af160$40aefea9@DWARFS> so i'm choosing contacts, see the client, click on the client and a contact pops up in the other 'field' however, what also pops up is a javascript error: Line: 65 Error: 'options.1' is not an object. ------ dunno if connected, but after accepting the error, i select the contact and hit the view button and get another javascript error: Line: 103 Error: 'document.forms.0.contact_id.options' is not an object -------- using MSIE 5.0/W2k here. *the 'helping' one* From elfur at elfur.is Thu Jun 21 13:03:36 2001 From: elfur at elfur.is (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Jun 21 13:03:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] a.e.o - color combination suggestion Message-ID: <0fb401c0fa7b$eebdc730$40aefea9@DWARFS> hey y'all so now we have to put a theme on the a.e.o interface. i suggest using the grey theme i put together while we were all 'theming' away the other day :) now, since some prick did some things to our members box i can't show it to y'all for now, but i still want your approval - it's just grey, but otherwise within the scope of the official evolt themes in use for other *eo projects. thanks *the 'offering' one* From elfur at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 21 13:06:49 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Jun 21 13:06:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] cleaning up a.e.o's HTML References: <15c84d15987c.15987c15c84d@augustine.gci.net> Message-ID: <0fc401c0fa7c$6178f6a0$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: "David Mccreath" so what you're saying is that "How for we getting to many pages of needing cleanings?" equals "how do we access the files that need to be cleaned up?" LOL, that's funny - really funny. not surprised at all that i couldn't read into that one :) | heh ... sorry ... it's solstice which means I haven't seen the dark for | several months now. I'm daffy with sunlight. You of all people on this | list should know what I'm talking about, Ms. Iceland. ;p yup, and loving every minute of it :) it sure beats the 20 hours of darkness in december ... *the icelandic one* From elfur at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 21 13:14:59 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Jun 21 13:14:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug] TheWife: Error from voting app. References: <016c01c0fa77$05da03c0$f7eda1d1@mef> Message-ID: <0fe201c0fa7d$86fb8360$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: "Michele Foster" | Home Jobs Timesheets Websites Contacts Users Reference Logout | hmmm, timesheets? it's only showing up on this voting page ... *the helping one* From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Jun 21 13:19:54 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Jun 21 13:19:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug] a.e.o. - Saving personal data Message-ID: <01a301c0fa7e$4a8dbc80$f7eda1d1@mef> Dan, Can you ease up on that form? The validation is too intense.. had to enter a U.S. postal code just to get it to submit. Plus, error checking reposts the form .. data that was entered gets deleted. Michele From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Thu Jun 21 13:49:42 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Thu Jun 21 13:49:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] cleaning up a.e.o's HTML In-Reply-To: <20010621154005.EB35DC3B@relay.evolt.org> References: <20010621154005.EB35DC3B@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <01062119440708.01234@cincinatti.home> David Mccreath said: > Anybody interested in helping, please send a shout out in the next day > or two so we can coordinate this clean-up. /me puts his hand up I've got client work on at the minute that involves quite a bit of validation, whats the harm in throwing a few more pages into the pot *:) G. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From bheerssen at visualbridge.tv Thu Jun 21 13:51:13 2001 From: bheerssen at visualbridge.tv (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Thu Jun 21 13:51:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] broken links: l.e.o/archive/ Message-ID: <3B324631.8000907@visualbridge.tv> Yep, lots of them.... http://lists.evolt.org/archive Cheers Bruce From mccreath at ak.net Thu Jun 21 13:59:23 2001 From: mccreath at ak.net (David Mccreath) Date: Thu Jun 21 13:59:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] cleaning up a.e.o's HTML Message-ID: <169d2116b6bc.16b6bc169d21@augustine.gci.net> Cool. Thanks, Garrett. When we've got a more definite idea of exactly what we're going to be doing, we'll let you know. ----- Original Message ----- From: Garrett Coakley Date: Thursday, June 21, 2001 11:44 am Subject: Re:[thesite] cleaning up a.e.o's HTML > David Mccreath said: > > > Anybody interested in helping, please send a shout out in the > next day > > or two so we can coordinate this clean-up. > > > /me puts his hand up > > > I've got client work on at the minute that involves quite a bit of > validation, whats the harm in throwing a few more pages into the > pot *:) > > > G. > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ > PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 14:33:28 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 14:33:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] cleaning up a.e.o's HTML References: <15c84d15987c.15987c15c84d@augustine.gci.net> Message-ID: <3B324A17.8010405@starkmedia.com> heh.. get ahold of elfur off list, she has the login info :) did you notice i put a thing in a.e.o for site logins and passwords ?? its going to be *my* favorite feature ;) David Mccreath wrote: > heh ... sorry ... it's solstice which means I haven't seen the dark for > several months now. I'm daffy with sunlight. You of all people on this > list should know what I'm talking about, Ms. Iceland. ;p > > What I meant was: > > Dan, how do we access the files that need to be cleaned up? From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 14:34:42 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 14:34:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] a.e.o - color combination suggestion References: <0fb401c0fa7b$eebdc730$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: <3B324A5C.8090100@starkmedia.com> i'd just like to point out that this is only the 'default' theme. if one edits their info, they can change the basic 'theme' although not as well as josh's application yet. its just a step i was playing with to see what the best way to do it on w.e.o would be .djc. Elfur Logadottir wrote: > hey y'all > > so now we have to put a theme on the a.e.o interface. > > i suggest using the grey theme i put together while we were all 'theming' > away the other day :) / > From elfur at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 21 14:38:40 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Jun 21 14:38:40 2001 Subject: [thesite] a.e.o - color combination suggestion References: <0fb401c0fa7b$eebdc730$40aefea9@DWARFS> <3B324A5C.8090100@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <190701c0fa89$364048a0$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: "Daniel J. Cody" | i'd just like to point out that this is only the 'default' theme. | yup, but we need to have one default theme, right? | if one edits their info, they can change the basic 'theme' although not | as well as josh's application yet. its just a step i was playing with to | see what the best way to do it on w.e.o would be oh, that will be sooooooooo neat, when ... i think this is a good place to start playing with it anyway. *thanks* elfur From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 14:39:19 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 14:39:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug] [fixed]TheWife: Error from voting app. References: <016c01c0fa77$05da03c0$f7eda1d1@mef> Message-ID: <3B324B73.3050700@starkmedia.com> fixed Michele Foster wrote: > > Home Jobs Timesheets Websites Contacts Users Reference Logout > > > Error! > > Diagnostics: > > An error occurred while evaluating the expression: > > > "#data#" From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Thu Jun 21 14:54:48 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Jun 21 14:54:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug] [fixed]TheWife: Error from voting app. References: <016c01c0fa77$05da03c0$f7eda1d1@mef> <3B324B73.3050700@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <011c01c0fa8b$815a97d0$7303020a@hg2p201> > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > Subject: Re: [thesite] [Bug] [fixed]TheWife: Error from voting app. > > fixed Well, then fix it again: Error! Diagnostics: An error occurred while evaluating the expression: "#data#" Error near line 1, column 43. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Error resolving parameter DATA ColdFusion was unable to determine the value of the parameter. This problem is very likely due to the fact that either: You have misspelled the parameter name, or You have not specified a QUERY attribute for a CFOUTPUT, CFMAIL, or CFTABLE tag. The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of (CFQUERY), occupying document position (1:1) to (1:93) in the template file /home/evolt/admin_html/vote/response.cfm. DateTime: Thu Jun 21 14:53:26 2001 Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0) Content: #Error.GeneratedContent# Remote Address: 63.91.117.25 Refering Document: http://admin.evolt.org/vote/index.cfm?menu=view_responses Template: /home/evolt/admin_html/vote/index.cfm Query String: menu=view_responses&question_id=12 Please email this page to dan. From qajir at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 21 14:56:26 2001 From: qajir at members.evolt.org (Judith Taylor) Date: Thu Jun 21 14:56:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] Commenting the *code* ;o) In-Reply-To: <0f4d01c0fa78$2455dbc0$40aefea9@DWARFS> References: <1596ff1575a3.1575a31596ff@augustine.gci.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010621154844.00a564c0@mail.frognet.net> Dan et al: Next week, I will be able to get back on track with commenting the code I hauled down from t.e.o. This week has been very hectic and the weekend's not much better. *sigh* I have a new motherboard for my NT box where the files were residing...so, hopefully I should be able to get the commenting finished and back up to t.e.o - under a slightly different name. I'll alert you guys when she's ready and onboard again. Judi Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness which created them. - Albert Einstein From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 14:56:41 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 14:56:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] [BUG] [fixed] error when creating a new job References: <0f5201c0fa78$631390a0$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: <3B324F83.7080802@starkmedia.com> you shouldn't have to do anything with it now... i'm not 100% on this yet either so i may just remove the whole job numbering thing Elfur Logadottir wrote: > got an error when posting a job creation > - how is it with job numbers - do i really have to select a number - can't > we just make that automatic, please. > > thanks > *the elfing one* > > ---------- error belowe ----------- > > Diagnostics: > > An error occurred while evaluating the expression: > #NumberFormat(attributes.client_number,'0000')# From qajir at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 21 14:58:13 2001 From: qajir at members.evolt.org (Judith Taylor) Date: Thu Jun 21 14:58:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] A.E.O. access?? In-Reply-To: <017e01c0fa79$8f9271e0$f7eda1d1@mef> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010621155219.00a4f020@mail.frognet.net> Hey, speaking of a.e.o. can I have my access back? Pretty please? ;o) Thx. Judi Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness which created them. - Albert Einstein From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:02:23 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:02:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] [a.e.o] [fixed] hmm, i can't see the event i created References: <0f7601c0fa79$510ff140$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: <3B3250DB.8030601@starkmedia.com> fixed Elfur Logadottir wrote: > so i created an event - think i chose the user staff, not sure. > the event was for tomorrow and had the name evolt gettogether or something > ... but i can't see it anywhere ... so i *must* have done something wrong > here :) From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:03:38 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:03:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] [a.e.o] [bug] js. error when browsing contacts References: <0fa501c0fa7b$403af160$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: <3B325125.4090708@starkmedia.com> i ripped this javascript from someone else so somebody who knows it i'll have to leave for that one Elfur Logadottir wrote: > so i'm choosing contacts, see the client, click on the client and a contact > pops up in the other 'field' however, what also pops up is a javascript > error: > > Line: 65 > Error: 'options.1' is not an object. > > ------ > > dunno if connected, but after accepting the error, i select the contact and > hit the view button and get another javascript error: > > Line: 103 > Error: 'document.forms.0.contact_id.options' is not an object > > -------- > > using MSIE 5.0/W2k here. > > *the 'helping' one* > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:04:03 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:04:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug] TheWife: Error from voting app. References: <016c01c0fa77$05da03c0$f7eda1d1@mef> <0fe201c0fa7d$86fb8360$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: <3B32513C.30007@starkmedia.com> future features Elfur Logadottir wrote: > From: "Michele Foster" > > > | Home Jobs Timesheets Websites Contacts Users Reference Logout > | > > hmmm, timesheets? > > it's only showing up on this voting page ... From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:05:58 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:05:58 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug] [fixed] a.e.o. - Saving personal data References: <01a301c0fa7e$4a8dbc80$f7eda1d1@mef> Message-ID: <3B3251AD.20609@starkmedia.com> k, now only email, password and birthday are required Michele Foster wrote: > Dan, > > Can you ease up on that form? The validation is too intense.. had to enter > a U.S. postal code just to get it to submit. Plus, error checking reposts > the form .. data that was entered gets deleted. > > Michele > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > From gina at sitediva.com Thu Jun 21 15:08:44 2001 From: gina at sitediva.com (Gina K. Anderson) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:08:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] Unsubbing - Don't kill me In-Reply-To: <3B324B73.3050700@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I'd like to unsubscribe to this mailing--I'm a subscriber to "TheList", and I went to the evolt site to unsub, but it doesn't look like I can choose to unsub to this list, [thesite], just the evolt discussion group [thelist]...I don't want to unsub from [thelist]. ;-) I keep my mailing list welcome letters 99.9% of the time, but I can't find the one for this list. Can anyone throw me a bone here? Thanks, and sorry for the offtopic post. Ducking... Gina From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:11:20 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:11:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] seth.. Message-ID: <3B3252EA.9000007@starkmedia.com> hey bud - can you wait to run the archive parser till tonite? each cfserver process is chewing up 200Mb+ of ram a piece right now :) thankie! From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:14:03 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:14:03 2001 Subject: [thesite] TheWife: Websites, Clients, Projects ? References: <017e01c0fa79$8f9271e0$f7eda1d1@mef> Message-ID: <3B325394.5040108@starkmedia.com> Michele Foster wrote: > Dan, > > This section .. why is seth's contact info showing up at the bottom of each > of the web site pages? cus he's listed as a contact for the 'client' evolt.org theres a lot of stuff that we're not going to use right now, but i built alot of that stuff with the future in mind.. :) > Is this section set to Priv level? Too much info.. IMHO. > > Why do we have both client and website? And, isn't there a lot of stuff > that we do/needs to be done, that isn't for a website, that is for evolt.org > itself? well because one client can have multiple websites... again, i'm thinking way ahead here > e.g. if I want to see all the jobs that are "writing text" in nature .. how > would I do that? you want to see all jobs that are a task(lets say) called 'proofing'? go to jobs then click on the 'tasks' column link.. that will sort by specific tasks(i can add more) or you can choose the search thing from 'jobs' > I'm not being clear .. I guess what's throwing me off is that everything is > showing up on the calendar as evolt.org. But, I think it would be better if > things show up as what they are .. e.g. admin meeting June 30th, minutes > from meeting due July 7th, faq article on whatever due 12th July, vote for > whatever_issue due 6th July. ?? > > Maybe this will help, larger Project/Categorization: BOD stuff, Admin stuff, > FAQ stuff, leo stuff (including ? ya, thats where i'm going.. i'm going to create a BOD 'client' a tagwear 'client' and so on.. i'll explain more tomorrow ;) .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:18:52 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:18:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug] [fixed]TheWife: Error from voting app. References: <016c01c0fa77$05da03c0$f7eda1d1@mef> <3B324B73.3050700@starkmedia.com> <011c01c0fa8b$815a97d0$7303020a@hg2p201> Message-ID: <3B3254B3.40503@starkmedia.com> doh! fix0rezed!! Warden, Matt wrote: >>From: "Daniel J. Cody" >>Subject: Re: [thesite] [Bug] [fixed]TheWife: Error from voting app. >> >> > >>fixed >> > > Well, then fix it again: > > > > Error! > > Diagnostics: > > An error occurred while evaluating the expression: > > > "#data#" From seth at sethbienek.com Thu Jun 21 15:19:27 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:19:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] seth.. In-Reply-To: <3B3252EA.9000007@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <001501c0fa8e$ac38d680$2f01010a@dti2> hee hee.. Oops. Should only be running one process at a time. I will have to build in something to keep that from happening. Sorry! What happens is that I have to run it from Netscape in order to keep the browser from timing out (IE has a 5 minute limit), but if I resize or do anything at all in the NS browser once it's running, then it re-runs the template! Damn thing! Would it be possible to schedule it as a cron job so that these things won't happen? I can send you the URL... Regards, Seth ----------------------------------- Seth Bienek Digitaris Technologies, Inc. tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 fax (972) 690-0617 icq 7673959 ----------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 3:03 PM > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: [thesite] seth.. > > > hey bud - can you wait to run the archive parser till tonite? > > each cfserver process is chewing up 200Mb+ of ram a piece right now :) > > thankie! > > > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ > and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ > > From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:19:32 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:19:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] Unsubbing - Don't kill me References: Message-ID: <3B3254DE.6070508@starkmedia.com> no prob gina, i'll take care of it :) .djc. Gina K. Anderson wrote: > Hi all, > > I'd like to unsubscribe to this mailing--I'm a subscriber to > "TheList", and I went to the evolt site to unsub, but it > doesn't look like I can choose to unsub to this list, > [thesite], just the evolt discussion group [thelist]...I > don't want to unsub from [thelist]. ;-) > > I keep my mailing list welcome letters 99.9% of the time, > but I can't find the one for this list. Can anyone throw me > a bone here? Thanks, and sorry for the offtopic post. > Ducking... From gina at sitediva.com Thu Jun 21 15:21:57 2001 From: gina at sitediva.com (Gina K. Anderson) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:21:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] Unsubbing - Don't kill me In-Reply-To: <3B3254DE.6070508@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: Daniel, |no prob gina, i'll take care of it :) Thank you!!! :) Gina From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:24:07 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:24:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] Commenting the *code* ;o) References: <1596ff1575a3.1575a31596ff@augustine.gci.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010621154844.00a564c0@mail.frognet.net> Message-ID: <3B3255F0.4010600@starkmedia.com> Heya Judith - Sounds good! thanks for the update :) .djc. Judith Taylor wrote: > Dan et al: > > Next week, I will be able to get back on track with commenting the code > I hauled down from t.e.o. > > This week has been very hectic and the weekend's not much better. *sigh* > I have a new motherboard for my NT box where the files were > residing...so, hopefully I should be able to get the commenting finished > and back up to t.e.o - under a slightly different name. > > I'll alert you guys when she's ready and onboard again. From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:24:32 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:24:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] A.E.O. access?? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010621155219.00a4f020@mail.frognet.net> Message-ID: <3B325608.5090508@starkmedia.com> you got it.. password is same as w.e.o - dont change it through for now :) Judith Taylor wrote: > Hey, speaking of a.e.o. can I have my access back? Pretty please? ;o) From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:25:17 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:25:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] seth.. References: <001501c0fa8e$ac38d680$2f01010a@dti2> Message-ID: <3B325635.4070102@starkmedia.com> sure thing :) Seth Bienek wrote: > hee hee.. Oops. Should only be running one process at a time. I will have to build in something to keep that from happening. > > Sorry! > > What happens is that I have to run it from Netscape in order to keep the browser from timing out (IE has a 5 minute limit), but if I resize or do anything at all in the NS browser once it's running, then it re-runs the template! Damn thing! > > Would it be possible to schedule it as a cron job so that these things won't happen? I can send you the URL... From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 15:26:27 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:26:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] A.E.O. access?? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010621155219.00a4f020@mail.frognet.net> <3B325608.5090508@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3B32567A.6070608@starkmedia.com> if anyone else wants access to a.e.o that isn't on there already, get ahold of me in the next hour, cus i'm takin off for toronto around 5pm for the weekend, and there aren't any 'admin' functions yet to add new people and i'm really good at run on sentances. .djc. Daniel J. Cody wrote: > you got it.. password is same as w.e.o - dont change it through for now :) > > Judith Taylor wrote: > >> Hey, speaking of a.e.o. can I have my access back? Pretty please? ;o) From seth at sethbienek.com Thu Jun 21 15:46:32 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:46:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] seth.. In-Reply-To: <3B325635.4070102@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <001601c0fa92$70abcb50$2f01010a@dti2> Hey Dan, I had to run it one last time to test the 'single process' limiter thingy.. Here's the URL: (I sent you the URL offlist so the spiders won't pick it up from the archives.) The request timeout is 24 hours in seconds (for good measure); 'messages' is the number of messages to process before stopping. The template will safely stop when it either hits the timeout or the message limit, so it's OK to play with both of those attributes. Note that it will output the stats only if it doesn't time out. You can also get live stats at: http://lists.evolt.org/mporter/StatusCheck.cfm Here are the results from the last batch of 11 messages (2699 messages total so far): Imported 11 Messages in 2.57 minutes (154 seconds). Message retrieval rate was 4.3 messages per minute. (this runs 8 messages/second on my POS at home!) Cursor Position is now 415864 of 46156590 Parsing of MBOX file is 0.90% complete. Are you going to have time to set up the cron job before you leave, or should I hit the URL a couple of times this weekend? Seth ----------------------------------- Seth Bienek Digitaris Technologies, Inc. tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 fax (972) 690-0617 icq 7673959 ----------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 3:17 PM > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thesite] seth.. > > > sure thing :) From elfur at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 21 15:54:07 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Thu Jun 21 15:54:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] [a.e.o] [fixed] hmm, i can't see the event i created References: <0f7601c0fa79$510ff140$40aefea9@DWARFS> <3B3250DB.8030601@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <196b01c0fa93$c3ccf6a0$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: "Daniel J. Cody" | fixed thanks, but now it's showing twice ... ?? | | Elfur Logadottir wrote: | | > so i created an event - think i chose the user staff, not sure. | > the event was for tomorrow and had the name evolt gettogether or something | > ... but i can't see it anywhere ... so i *must* have done something wrong | > here :) | | | | _______________________________________________ | http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/ | and new & improved kentucky fried old archives: | http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/old/ | From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 21 17:14:28 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 21 17:14:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] i'm off.. Message-ID: <3B326FAA.2090902@starkmedia.com> jen and i are heading out in about 20 minutes for toronto.. I'll be back on Sunday night/monday morning if you get the chance, play around with a.e.o during the weekend(if you didnt get access to it yet, ask someone else if you can 'borrow' their account for the time being), and give me ideas on how to make it better and what you all would like to see in it matts going to be doing all list approvals/subs/administration.(he pretty much does them all now :) and everything with the problems from last night should be squared away. have a nice weekend and see some of you tomorrow! :) .djc. From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Thu Jun 21 19:32:20 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Thu Jun 21 19:32:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] cleaning up a.e.o's HTML Message-ID: <01062201263803.01335@cincinatti.home> David Mccreath said: > Cool. Thanks, Garrett. When we've got a more definite idea of exactly > what we're going to be doing, we'll let you know. Just holler. Have to admit, I haven't been following thesite conversation as intently as I could have been. What spec are you aiming for? html4.01 I presume (just so I can get HTMLTidy ready *:). G. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Jun 21 22:38:42 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Jun 21 22:38:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] test Message-ID: <01f401c0facc$5adba3b0$9865fea9@patk3mzsmhxpqb> oh yeah... now that i need someone to post everyone's quiet for hours. delete me. ;-) From r937 at interlog.com Thu Jun 21 23:20:41 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Jun 21 23:20:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] test Message-ID: <01c0fad2$24982200$9a4a149a@rudy> >oh yeah... now that i need someone to post everyone's quiet for hours. waiting for you, bro what you need? rudy From gozz at gozz.com Sat Jun 23 09:29:33 2001 From: gozz at gozz.com (Erik Mattheis) Date: Sat Jun 23 09:29:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] rejected postings to thelist Message-ID: Something is afoul somewhere ... starting a few weeks, maybe months ago, some of my postings to thelist started being rejected ... I noticed when it started happening there were several other postings which had been held for approval. I've changed nothing about my email client (that I'm aware of) and am just hitting reply and typing. Eudora 4.3.1 Mac. What gives? -- - Erik Mattheis Wants to see a flying saucer. (612) 827 3963 From ronwhite at members.evolt.org Sat Jun 23 15:20:04 2001 From: ronwhite at members.evolt.org (Ron White) Date: Sat Jun 23 15:20:04 2001 Subject: [thesite] rejected postings to thelist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had this problem off and on as well. I just repost them and they go through. I think it has something to do with the DNS on the path it takes... Thanks, Ron White From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sun Jun 24 10:47:48 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sun Jun 24 10:47:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] Edit User's Preferences .... was .. Fw: [***list] I just learned that members can customize their CSS view of evolt .org Message-ID: <006e01c0fcc4$9149db20$21e9a1d1@mef> Dan, Oops.. when you rolled over teo the other day, you brought over those test pages you guys were playing with the user preferences... might want to roll those pages back. ;) Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: | I was just playing around (I am working my way to discover how to get my | members.evolt.org account activated without mailing anyone to ask -- I know, | I know, kinda unfortunate timing... ah well, I can wait) and clicked on the | update profile. This brings one to the URL: | http://www.evolt.org/user/index.html?action=edit where it appears to give | the ability to edit the CSS that controls the site's appearance. | | Without even trying to pressure the admired, astute and understandably | frustrated admin of evolt who, if you have been following, are mitigating | damages or vacationing at a local oasis of celebration after having done so, | I gently acknowledge that it doesn't quite work as expected, simply | returning one to the main page. From martin at easyweb.co.uk Sun Jun 24 15:59:40 2001 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Sun Jun 24 15:59:40 2001 Subject: [thesite] BUG: Someone is talking... Message-ID: <075583158201861PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> Note no user name. Cheers Martin ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 24/6/01 6:12 am Received: 24/6/01 11:13 am From: info at evolt.org To: martin at members.evolt.org Hello Martin, has commented on a discussion thread you posted to evolt.org. Would you like to read what was written? http://www.evolt.org/article/view/25/11877/index.html#comments Thanks, evolt.org staff _______________________________________ (if you would like to turn off this automatic notification, you may do so on the site- just log in and click on 'Edit Account'.) ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- From martin at easyweb.co.uk Mon Jun 25 00:27:41 2001 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Mon Jun 25 00:27:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] Fwd: [thelist] [OT]Can I use the tip harvester code/ or be given some hints how it is implemented? Message-ID: <0f65a2725051961PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 25/6/01 1:23 am Received: 25/6/01 1:21 am From: Charles Wilson (h), me at charlesw.com Reply-To: thelist, thelist at lists.evolt.org To: thelist, thelist at lists.evolt.org I'm developing a small community design site with friends to help inspire each other- and the tip harvester for Evolt.org is a great tool. I checked http://lists.evolt.org but couldn't find any more information on how evolt implemented the Tip Harvester; could one of the admins contact me and either: 1. Tell me it is a secret 2. Tell me it is a secret and move me in the right direction (implemented with perl/ php/ coldfusion, on what type of server..) Thats really just what I am interested in. -charles wilson Microsoft's Visio is great for mapping out ideas, workflows and sitemaps- at a price. SmartDraw has a ton of features- I used it today to brainstorm a site, and only $100. http://www.smartdraw.com/order/ -Also, I have no connection with the company.- --------------------------------------- For unsubscribe and other options, including the Tip Harvester and archive of TheList go to: http://lists.evolt.org Workers of the Web, evolt ! ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Mon Jun 25 09:09:55 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Jun 25 09:09:55 2001 Subject: [thesite] rejected postings to thelist References: Message-ID: <000401c0fd80$07ac0890$7303020a@hg2p201> > From: "Erik Mattheis" > Subject: [thesite] rejected postings to thelist > > Something is afoul somewhere ... starting a few weeks, maybe months > ago, some of my postings to thelist started being rejected ... I > noticed when it started happening there were several other postings > which had been held for approval. > > I've changed nothing about my email client (that I'm aware of) and am > just hitting reply and typing. > > Eudora 4.3.1 Mac. > > What gives? It happens every once in a while. It's usually becuase of a weird Content-type header. It's all in the spirit of trying to keep out HTML- and RTF-formatted emails to thelist. You can just resend them if you'd like, but if I don't notice them resent, I (or another admin) will just clean them up and forward them. No big deal, just a little delay. A small tradeoff when you consider what HTML-formatted email would do to the digest. Not to respark the HTML email debate again or anything... *shiver* Thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Jun 25 15:17:26 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Jun 25 15:17:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] downtime early this morning.. Message-ID: <3B379A90.7090905@starkmedia.com> there have been tiny little problems with the starkmedia t-1 cicuit this weekend and today and qwest is going to be running some tests on the line around 2:00am CST the t-1(and all evolt sites) will be down for about 20-30 minutes while they run the tests on the circuit.. thanks :) From seth at sethbienek.com Mon Jun 25 15:22:15 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Mon Jun 25 15:22:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] mporter In-Reply-To: <3B325635.4070102@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <002301c0fdb3$cc59bba0$2f01010a@dti2> Hey Dan, > > Would it be possible to schedule it as a cron job so that these > sure thing :) Just wanted to remind you to do this when you get a chance. Seth ----------------------------------- Seth Bienek Digitaris Technologies, Inc. tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 fax (972) 690-0617 icq 7673959 ----------------------------------- From martin at easyweb.co.uk Mon Jun 25 16:33:44 2001 From: martin at easyweb.co.uk (Martin Burns) Date: Mon Jun 25 16:33:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender Message-ID: <067c71232211961PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> meo is now back... but the below is interesting. ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 25/6/01 10:34 pm Received: 25/6/01 10:26 pm From: Mail Delivery System, MAILER-DAEMON at lists.evolt.org To: pop4139 at pop.easyweb.co.uk This is the Postfix program at host relay.evolt.org. I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. For further assistance, please contact If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the message returned below. The Postfix program : unknown user: "thesite" Subject: meo down? Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:15:53 +0100 From: Martin Burns Can't raise it via HTTP or POP3 Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Jun 25 18:51:30 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Jun 25 18:51:30 2001 Subject: [thesite] mporter References: <002301c0fdb3$cc59bba0$2f01010a@dti2> Message-ID: <3B37A535.8000509@starkmedia.com> you rule :) how often do you want it to run again? i'll add it right away as soon as you let me know :) Seth Bienek wrote: > Hey Dan, > > >>>Would it be possible to schedule it as a cron job so that these >>> > >>sure thing :) >> > > Just wanted to remind you to do this when you get a chance. > > Seth From seth at sethbienek.com Mon Jun 25 18:56:31 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Mon Jun 25 18:56:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] mporter In-Reply-To: <3B37A535.8000509@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <000401c0fdd1$91c2aa60$2f01010a@dti2> Can you set it to run late at night (whenever traffic is lowest)? I am working on speeding it up, as well.. Seth ----------------------------------- Seth Bienek Digitaris Technologies, Inc. tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 fax (972) 690-0617 icq 7673959 ----------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Daniel J. Cody > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:55 PM > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thesite] mporter > > > you rule :) > > how often do you want it to run again? i'll add it right away as soon as > you let me know :) > > Seth Bienek wrote: > > > Hey Dan, > > > > > >>>Would it be possible to schedule it as a cron job so that these > >>> > > > >>sure thing :) > >> > > > > Just wanted to remind you to do this when you get a chance. > > > > Seth > > > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > > From isaac at triplezero.com.au Mon Jun 25 23:24:56 2001 From: isaac at triplezero.com.au (Isaac Forman) Date: Mon Jun 25 23:24:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] question about article update Message-ID: currently, updates to an already approved article need to be approved before they overwrite the original version. can i ask how this occurs? my current implementation of this in my own developing cms uses a numeric field (updatelink). when a published item is edited and saved for review, a new row is created in the content table, and the updatelink value is added (equal to the id of the original published document). the document status in this duplicate is changed from 'published' to 'unapproved'. then, the parent document cannot be re-edited until the child is either published (by someone with appropriate rights), or deleted (again, by someone with the correct privilege level). is this how the evolt system works? what happens if someone tries to edit/update an approved article if a yet-to-be-approved version of it already exists? my implementation is almost done, but i'm continually confusing myself somehow. :p isaac From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Jun 25 23:47:41 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Jun 25 23:47:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] question about article update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: isaac, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Isaac Forman : : currently, updates to an already approved : article need to be approved before : they overwrite the original version. : : can i ask how this occurs? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ sure, changes are made and saved back to the same row in the database. there is no versioning as of yet in the system. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : is this how the evolt system works? what happens : if someone tries to edit/update an approved : article if a yet-to-be-approved version of it : already exists? : : my implementation is almost done, but i'm : continually confusing myself somehow. :p :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ yes, versioning and publishing workflow development sucks. we've been able to avoid it so far here at work, but eventually we'll have a client that wants it. then we get to dig in and get our hands dirty. i'm sure if i sat down and thought about it i could come up with a solution for you. sorry i can't be more help, .jeff From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 00:06:17 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Jun 26 00:06:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] question about article update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > yes, versioning and publishing workflow development sucks. we've > been able > to avoid it so far here at work, but eventually we'll have a client that > wants it. then we get to dig in and get our hands dirty. i'm > sure if i sat > down and thought about it i could come up with a solution for you. we had originally planned the database so that each item would have a content history (10 levels probably), with each level time- and user-stamped. publishers could back track through the history (ie, a 10-level undo feature). but it's been relegated to the lowest priority. tonnes of development time required for minimal usage/return. implemented library snippets (headers and footers for specific documents). next step are itemsets (enabling multi-part articles, etc). zzzz i From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 00:10:22 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jun 26 00:10:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] question about article update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: isaac, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: isaac : : we had originally planned the database so that : each item would have a content history (10 levels : probably), with each level time- and user-stamped. : publishers could back track through the history : (ie, a 10-level undo feature). :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ if you're going to go that far you might as well let them save the entire document history and delete from that history at will. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : but it's been relegated to the lowest priority. : tonnes of development time required for minimal : usage/return. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ agreed. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : implemented library snippets (headers and footers : for specific documents). :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ nice feature. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : next step are itemsets (enabling multi-part articles, : etc). :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ depending on how you implement it in the database it could be easy or it could be really difficult. good luck, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 00:25:32 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Jun 26 00:25:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] question about article update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : next step are itemsets (enabling multi-part articles, > : etc). > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > depending on how you implement it in the database it could be easy or it > could be really difficult. ITEMSET id title (article title) list (comma-delimited list of the article titles in order) also considering having a display field that says whether the article sections are listed in a dropdown, or a sidebar, etc. the other feature we've successfully implemented now is content locking when being edited. when you edit, the item is locked with your username, etc. other users trying to edit get a message that the document is locked (lock will expire in 30 minutes). users with a certain level of authority can unlock items at their discretion. seems to be working correctly, but i'm still paranoid i've fucked something up somewhere. :p all that stuff you helped me with (dynamic forms - dunno how else to describe it) is working very effectively. makes everything so easy to administrate. :) i From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 01:13:42 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jun 26 01:13:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] question about article update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: isaac, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: isaac : : list (comma-delimited list of the article : titles in order) :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ god, pet peeve number one when it comes to database design -- storing a list of ids in a field. no offense -- yuck. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : also considering having a display field that : says whether the article sections are listed : in a dropdown, or a sidebar, etc. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ interesting :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : the other feature we've successfully implemented : now is content locking when being edited. when : you edit, the item is locked with your username, : etc. other users trying to edit get a message that : the document is locked (lock will expire in 30 : minutes). users with a certain level of authority can : unlock items at their discretion. seems to be working : correctly, but i'm still paranoid i've fucked : something up somewhere. :p :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i can understand that. this is a pretty cool feature. was probably kinda fun building and testing too. i think i would have made this a lower priority than versioning though, but that's just me. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : all that stuff you helped me with (dynamic forms - : dunno how else to describe it) is working very : effectively. makes everything so easy to : administrate. :) :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ glad to hear it. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From isaac at triplezero.com.au Tue Jun 26 02:06:37 2001 From: isaac at triplezero.com.au (Isaac Forman) Date: Tue Jun 26 02:06:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org Message-ID: can people check this out and see what they think: http://test.evolt.org/article/expandomagico/21/10781/index.html the comment expand/collapse is a win/ie5+ only feature which jeff has added. meanwhile, i've made the comment title black, reduced the expand/collapse +/- a bit, and changed the colour and size of the comment authorname. any suggestions/criticism? isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 0414 758 000 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 02:06:41 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Jun 26 02:06:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] question about article update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > god, pet peeve number one when it comes to database design -- > storing a list > of ids in a field. no offense -- yuck. no offense taken of course. is the alternative another table in the database, and then a sequencing column also to allow ordering items within a set? ie, CONTENT table, ITEMSET, and then the table in between? (not too late to change if you think it's an utterly critical matter - just want to avoid overly complicating things (especially on the administrative side). actually, now that i think about it a bit more, maybe the extra table with many-to-many r'ships is the better solution :p) > i can understand that. this is a pretty cool feature. was probably kinda > fun building and testing too. i think i would have made this a lower > priority than versioning though, but that's just me. yeh, probably should've done it in the reverse order. oh well. too late now. :p other remaining features of low priority include scheduling, endaction (specify what happens to an item when it reaches its enddate), etc. back to it.. From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Jun 26 02:38:12 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Jun 26 02:38:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <012e01c0fe12$7c8dad20$66e9a1d1@mef> Isaac, hmm.. how about some padding to the "Add your comment:" row ? Move it down so it stands out a bit better .. especially hard to see when the last item is minimized. Can we think of something else for [+] / [--] that doesn't look so forum/thread like. Something graphical? The CSS is a lot better .. how about instead of Black BOLD for the titles, we try the darker and bold green (same as author, but larger text as it is now) .. large black bold is a bit overwhelming... its screaming at me ;) Nice job Jeff and Isaac. :) Michele (bed time now!!!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Isaac Forman" | can people check this out and see what they think: | | http://test.evolt.org/article/expandomagico/21/10781/index.html | | the comment expand/collapse is a win/ie5+ only feature which jeff has added. | | | meanwhile, i've made the comment title black, reduced the expand/collapse | +/- a bit, and changed the colour and size of the comment authorname. | | | any suggestions/criticism? From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 02:40:17 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jun 26 02:40:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] question about article update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: isaac, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: isaac : : > god, pet peeve number one when it comes : > to database design -- storing a list : > of ids in a field. no offense -- yuck. : : no offense taken of course. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ didn't think there would be. thought i should add it for all the sensitive ears out there that might think i was jumping your case unnecessarily hard. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : is the alternative another table in the database, : and then a sequencing column also to allow ordering : items within a set? : : ie, CONTENT table, ITEMSET, and then the table in : between? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ yes, an association table where you store itemset_id and content_id. you'd have a row for every unique combination. like you suggested, you could even throw in a rank column for storing the order of the items. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : (not too late to change if you think it's an utterly : critical matter - just want to avoid overly : complicating things (especially on the administrative : side). actually, now that i think about it a bit more, : maybe the extra table with many-to-many r'ships is the : better solution :p) :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ in the long-run, yes it's a better solution. it will actually save you coding time later on. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : other remaining features of low priority include : scheduling, endaction (specify what happens to an : item when it reaches its enddate), etc. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ don't forget things like notifications (email, page, sms), and task management (i'm a publisher and assign you the editor a basic task on a particular document). good luck, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From lindsay at redsquare.com.au Tue Jun 26 02:43:47 2001 From: lindsay at redsquare.com.au (Lindsay Evans) Date: Tue Jun 26 02:43:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > can people check this out and see what they think: very nice > the comment expand/collapse is a win/ie5+ only feature which jeff has added. Have you tried it in mozilla/ns6?, all seems to be nice DOM1 JS, so I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work. I also think that using this kind of thing on the sidebar minimize/restore link would be pretty cool just my $0.02 (thats $0.01 for you US folk... :) -- Lindsay Evans. Production Artist/Coder, Red Square Productions. vox: 8596.4000 fax: 8596.4001 web: www.redsquare.com.au From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Tue Jun 26 04:24:32 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Tue Jun 26 04:24:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] Young Oxford man seen killing thebot. More news at 11 Message-ID: <01062601574301.09151@cincinatti.home> D'oh... Sorry guys. I killed thebot. Mucho apologies, didn't realise you could hurt its feelings like that *:/ G. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 26 07:12:34 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 26 07:12:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B38431A.10655.9249A3E@localhost> i don't think it's worth creating a new class for the +/-... i think you should use — instead of a hyphen in the +/-... style="cursor: hand" requires a closing semicolon... if you're going to add a 'commentitle' class, try to mimic the structure/names in the existing CSS.. or consider adjusting the

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styles altogether (just set them all to the same color)... doesn't mean it's more correct, but it's worth thinking about... do we need new classes for the author name and time? i don't think so... this was also supposed to be span-free, using tags only for structure, and imparting style through those... there are three s in there i don't think we need... class the anchor for the +/- (especially since the whole bar as an expando-thingie is too much since you can't highlight text and the hit area for the name is now too small compared to the rest)... IOW, remove the JS event from the and insert it into an , class that... does the author need a style? if you really think it does, put it in the ... i think it should go... i don't think the time needs one at all, the span and class should go... overall, every time we modify the page, nobody runs it through a validator, and on top of that, we keep adding more and more code, and everyon's got a different style... these pages take forever to render on my home machine... we don't need all this code we keep adding, but we keep going to town on it... and the page is now peppered with tags... we also need to not add classes to the CSS... every time we do that, we're going to have to revisit the style changer and modify all the styles that go along with it... we have enough styles in there that we should be pretty good to go for a long time... doncha wish you hadn't asked? > From: "Isaac Forman" > > can people check this out and see what they think: > > http://test.evolt.org/article/expandomagico/21/10781/index.html > > the comment expand/collapse is a win/ie5+ only feature which jeff has > added. > > meanwhile, i've made the comment title black, reduced the > expand/collapse +/- a bit, and changed the colour and size of the > comment authorname. From elfur at lists.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 07:48:29 2001 From: elfur at lists.evolt.org (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Elfur_Logad=F3ttir?=) Date: Tue Jun 26 07:48:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <012e01c0fe12$7c8dad20$66e9a1d1@mef> Message-ID: <040e01c0fe3d$8bf65250$c3fda8c0@evolt> From: "Michele Foster" | how about instead of Black BOLD for the titles, | we try the darker and bold green (same as author, but larger text as it is | now) .. large black bold is a bit overwhelming... its screaming at me ;) +1 From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 26 09:56:00 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 26 09:56:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <3B38431A.10655.9249A3E@localhost> Message-ID: <3B38A096.3010101@starkmedia.com> +1 for all aardvark wrote: > i don't think it's worth creating a new class for the +/-... > > i think you should use — instead of a hyphen in the +/-... > > style="cursor: hand" requires a closing semicolon... > > if you're going to add a 'commentitle' class, try to mimic the > structure/names in the existing CSS.. or consider adjusting the >

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styles altogether (just set them all to the same > color)... doesn't mean it's more correct, but it's worth thinking > about... > > do we need new classes for the author name and time? i don't > think so... > > this was also supposed to be span-free, using tags only for > structure, and imparting style through those... there are three > s in there i don't think we need... > > class the anchor for the +/- (especially since the whole bar as an > expando-thingie is too much since you can't highlight text and the > hit area for the name is now too small compared to the rest)... > IOW, remove the JS event from the and insert it into an , > class that... > > does the author need a style? if you really think it does, put it in > the ... i think it should go... > > i don't think the time needs one at all, the span and class should > go... > > overall, every time we modify the page, nobody runs it through a > validator, and on top of that, we keep adding more and more code, > and everyon's got a different style... these pages take forever to > render on my home machine... we don't need all this code we keep > adding, but we keep going to town on it... and the page is now > peppered with tags... we also need to not add classes to > the CSS... every time we do that, we're going to have to revisit the > style changer and modify all the styles that go along with it... we > have enough styles in there that we should be pretty good to go for > a long time... > > doncha wish you hadn't asked? > > >>From: "Isaac Forman" >> >>can people check this out and see what they think: >> >>http://test.evolt.org/article/expandomagico/21/10781/index.html >> >>the comment expand/collapse is a win/ie5+ only feature which jeff has >>added. >> >>meanwhile, i've made the comment title black, reduced the >>expand/collapse +/- a bit, and changed the colour and size of the >>comment authorname. >> > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From elfur at lists.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 10:12:00 2001 From: elfur at lists.evolt.org (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Elfur_Logad=F3ttir?=) Date: Tue Jun 26 10:12:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] Young Oxford man seen killing thebot. More news at 11 References: <01062601574301.09151@cincinatti.home> Message-ID: <04d701c0fe51$9a13d150$c3fda8c0@evolt> From: "Garrett Coakley" | | D'oh... | | Sorry guys. I killed thebot. Mucho apologies, didn't realise you could hurt | its feelings like that *:/ where you fighting with it as michele did the other day :) please don't fight with it - at least if you do, don't tell it to shut up :) e From r937 at interlog.com Tue Jun 26 10:24:20 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Jun 26 10:24:20 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org Message-ID: <01c0fe53$7cdbe3a0$3746149a@rudy> >> i think you should use — -1 doesn't work on all platforms or so i'm told (i cannot confirm as all i have is windows) rudy From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 26 11:36:34 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 26 11:36:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <01c0fe53$7cdbe3a0$3746149a@rudy> Message-ID: <200106261636.f5QGaXN08223@leo.evolt.org> > From: "rudy" > > >> i think you should use — > > -1 > > doesn't work on all platforms > > or so i'm told > > (i cannot confirm as all i have is windows) can someone test this? we need a Mac and *nix tester to see if — works... rudy and i have discussed this before, but i still haven't seen it *not* work... From dsmah at home.com Tue Jun 26 11:47:24 2001 From: dsmah at home.com (Dean Mah) Date: Tue Jun 26 11:47:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <200106261636.f5QGaXN08223@leo.evolt.org> from "aardvark" at Jun 26, 2001 12:32:56 PM Message-ID: <200106261642.KAA01517@alice.monkeyland.ca> In Mozilla 0.9.1 / Gecko 20010607, I get '--'. In Netscape 4.77, I get '-'. Both on a RedHat 6.1 install. Dean aardvark writes: > > From: "rudy" > > > > >> i think you should use — > > > > -1 > > > > doesn't work on all platforms > > > > or so i'm told > > > > (i cannot confirm as all i have is windows) > > can someone test this? > > we need a Mac and *nix tester to see if — works... rudy and i > have discussed this before, but i still haven't seen it *not* work... From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 26 11:56:59 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 26 11:56:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <200106261642.KAA01517@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: <3B38BCF2.3080600@starkmedia.com> same here with same browsers on redhat 7.1 Dean Mah wrote: > In Mozilla 0.9.1 / Gecko 20010607, I get '--'. > In Netscape 4.77, I get '-'. > > Both on a RedHat 6.1 install. > > Dean > > > aardvark writes: > > >>>From: "rudy" >>> >>>>>i think you should use — >>>>> >>>-1 >>> >>>doesn't work on all platforms >>> >>>or so i'm told >>> >>>(i cannot confirm as all i have is windows) >>> >>can someone test this? >> >>we need a Mac and *nix tester to see if — works... rudy and i >>have discussed this before, but i still haven't seen it *not* work... >> > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 26 12:07:14 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 26 12:07:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] feedback on thewife/admin.evolt.org Message-ID: <3B38BF5A.80604@starkmedia.com> did anyone else have feedback or problems with admin.evolt.org ? if there are no other feature requests, i'd like to start moving it into use. thanks :) .djc. From emeyer at lclark.edu Tue Jun 26 12:29:34 2001 From: emeyer at lclark.edu (Erika Meyer) Date: Tue Jun 26 12:29:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <200106261636.f5QGaXN08223@leo.evolt.org> References: <200106261636.f5QGaXN08223@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: >we need a Mac and *nix tester to see if — works... rudy and i >have discussed this before, but i still haven't seen it *not* work... Works fine in IE5 mac and nn4.7 mac and current iCab. Don't have older browsers available to me though I all those characters don't display in Netscape 2 Mac, including   if I remember correctly. Erika -- From r937 at interlog.com Tue Jun 26 12:34:39 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Jun 26 12:34:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org Message-ID: <01c0fe65$bc4ba540$3746149a@rudy> okay adrian, it looks like the non-ascii characters are pretty safe after all -- who woulda thunk it i'll try not to mention it again remind me if i forget, okay? rudy From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 12:42:44 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jun 26 12:42:44 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B38431A.10655.9249A3E@localhost> Message-ID: aardvark, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: aardvark : : i don't think it's worth creating a new : class for the +/-... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ noted, but those elements are going to have to be styled in some fashion. what would you suggest using instead? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : i think you should use — instead of : a hyphen in the +/-... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i'm fine with that. support on other platforms is not necessary because this bit of code only gets sent out if the user is running win/ie5+. just implemented and tested and i don't like it. it's quite a bit longer than the + is wide causing the content to shift. at least the way it is now it just swaps the indicator and the title doesn't move. i'm leaving it as two hyphens until someone comes up with a better solution. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : style="cursor: hand" requires a closing : semicolon... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ scathing technicality :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : this was also supposed to be span-free, using : tags only for structure, and imparting style : through those... there are three s in : there i don't think we need... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ have you taken a look at how it works? what do you suppose i use instead of a to get the same effect? if you'll notice they don't impart any style to the document whatsoever (the fact that they have classes attached to them is moot as those could be applied to other tags around the elements). they're simply used as containers for the elements that are having their display property toggled. removed the spans for author and timestamp. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : class the anchor for the +/- (especially since : the whole bar as an expando-thingie is too much : since you can't highlight text and the hit area : for the name is now too small compared to the : rest)... IOW, remove the JS event from the : and insert it into an , class that... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ done. couldn't get it to not be underlined without adding a style to the tag setting it's text-decoration there. dunno what that's all about. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : does the author need a style? if you really think : it does, put it in the ... i think it should go... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ there was a complaint that it was too bold compared to the title of the comment. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : i don't think the time needs one at all, the span : and class should go... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ done. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : overall, every time we modify the page, nobody runs : it through a validator, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ so shoot me, i forgot a semi-colon on a style attribute value. i don't think that it's technically required, but anyway. the rest that i added is valid code. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : and on top of that, we keep adding more and more code, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ kinda necessary for more features doncha think? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : and everyon's got a different style... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ regrettably. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : these pages take forever to render on my home machine... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ nothing i can do for a tired, 3 year old machine on 33.6. sorry. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : we don't need all this code we keep adding, but we : keep going to town on it... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ that's a matter of perspective. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : and the page is now peppered with tags... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ when used for structural purposes (ie, as a container for an element so it can have it's display toggled) what's the problem with a tag here or there? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : we also need to not add classes to the CSS... every : time we do that, we're going to have to revisit the : style changer and modify all the styles that go along : with it... we have enough styles in there that we : should be pretty good to go for a long time... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ with some minor exceptions whenever we visit a new feature. we should always be careful though, i agree. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : doncha wish you hadn't asked? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ nope. grain of salt, buddy, grain of salt. *grin* j/k it's all very valuable, but nonetheless debatable. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From emeyer at lclark.edu Tue Jun 26 12:46:59 2001 From: emeyer at lclark.edu (Erika Meyer) Date: Tue Jun 26 12:46:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] feedback on thewife/admin.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B38BF5A.80604@starkmedia.com> References: <3B38BF5A.80604@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: where is this app? (I'll try to refrain from asking for anything, but I'd like to try it out.) Erika >did anyone else have feedback or problems with admin.evolt.org ? > >if there are no other feature requests, i'd like to start moving it into use. > >thanks :) > >.djc. -- From mccreath at ak.net Tue Jun 26 12:54:54 2001 From: mccreath at ak.net (David Mccreath) Date: Tue Jun 26 12:54:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] feedback on thewife/admin.evolt.org Message-ID: <39afba39931d.39931d39afba@augustine.gci.net> http://admin.evolt.org/ Just a note -- A group of us are already working on the styles, colors, etc, so please focus on the functionality now. We'll have a slightly different interface for it in a few days. We're going to bring it more in line with the standard *eo l&f. thanks David ----- Original Message ----- From: Erika Meyer Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:43 am Subject: Re: [thesite] feedback on thewife/admin.evolt.org > where is this app? (I'll try to refrain from asking for > anything, > but I'd like to try it out.) > > Erika > > >did anyone else have feedback or problems with admin.evolt.org ? > > > >if there are no other feature requests, i'd like to start moving > it into use. > > > >thanks :) > > > >.djc. > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 26 13:06:06 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 26 13:06:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: References: <3B38431A.10655.9249A3E@localhost> Message-ID: <200106261806.f5QI60N13835@leo.evolt.org> > From: ".jeff" > : > : i don't think it's worth creating a new > : class for the +/-... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > noted, but those elements are going to have to be styled in some > fashion. what would you suggest using instead? well, i haven't seen it unstyled... what is it you're trying to achieve? make it look like a link? make it stand out a bit? how about using a good ol' fashioned ? that will change its color... perhaps a strong, too... but since that implies structure that isn't there, you'd be better off inserting the style for bold in the ... then we can discuss if we want to make a new class for that... that class could then be applied to the author link as well... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : i think you should use — instead of > : a hyphen in the +/-... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > i'm fine with that. > > support on other platforms is not necessary because this bit of code > only gets sent out if the user is running win/ie5+. dig... > just implemented and tested and i don't like it. it's quite a bit > longer than the + is wide causing the content to shift. at least the > way it is now it just swaps the indicator and the title doesn't move. > i'm leaving it as two hyphens until someone comes up with a better > solution. ok, go with an en-dash, – ... it's probably more what you're looking for... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : style="cursor: hand" requires a closing > : semicolon... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > scathing technicality heh... best kind... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : this was also supposed to be span-free, using > : tags only for structure, and imparting style > : through those... there are three s in > : there i don't think we need... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > have you taken a look at how it works? what do you suppose i use > instead of a to get the same effect? if you'll notice they > don't impart any style to the document whatsoever (the fact that they > have classes attached to them is moot as those could be applied to > other tags around the elements). they're simply used as containers > for the elements that are having their display property toggled. if that's the only way to do it, so be it... but i had to register my opposition to s whenever i'm not 100% sure they are justified... it would be nice if you could apply the display property to the parent container (the ) but i suspect that's nigh impossible... > removed the spans for author and timestamp. rock... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : class the anchor for the +/- (especially since > : the whole bar as an expando-thingie is too much > : since you can't highlight text and the hit area > : for the name is now too small compared to the > : rest)... IOW, remove the JS event from the > : and insert it into an , class that... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > done. couldn't get it to not be underlined without adding a style to > the tag setting it's text-decoration there. dunno what that's all > about. global style calls for underlining i believe... you can only override that inline... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : does the author need a style? if you really think > : it does, put it in the ... i think it should go... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > there was a complaint that it was too bold compared to the title of > the comment. the author was? hmmm... ok.... i don't remember what the style was in there and i don't have the URL here at work... do what you can... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : i don't think the time needs one at all, the span > : and class should go... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > done. cool... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : overall, every time we modify the page, nobody runs > : it through a validator, > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > so shoot me, i forgot a semi-colon on a style attribute value. i > don't think that it's technically required, but anyway. the rest that > i added is valid code. that's not aimed at just you, or i would shoot you... the semi-colon isn't even what prompted that comment... i'm just trying to remind everyone that every time we touch the code, we run the risk of breaking it in some new way... the validator is part of checking it, and i'm sure it will throw bunches of warnings... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : and on top of that, we keep adding more and more code, > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > kinda necessary for more features doncha think? yep... you'll note that features generally don't impress me... don't get me wrong, this is a great feature, but i'll never use it... and i'm not sure how it immediately benefits users... but there's also nothing wrong with experimenting and gauging response from users... it's probably the best way to test things... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : and everyon's got a different style... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > regrettably. just wait until CodeLobe 1.0 is done... once i can implant some HTML-specific stem cells in all yer heads, you're gonna wish you'd never heard of the W3C... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : these pages take forever to render on my home machine... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > nothing i can do for a tired, 3 year old machine on 33.6. sorry. hey! it's 4.75 years old, and it is *not* tired, it's resting its eyes... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : we don't need all this code we keep adding, but we > : keep going to town on it... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > that's a matter of perspective. well, if we could kill those spans without adverse affect, then that prespective has a point... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : and the page is now peppered with tags... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > when used for structural purposes (ie, as a container for an element > so it can have it's display toggled) what's the problem with a > tag here or there? nothing... see note above... and above that... and another one somewhere else... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : we also need to not add classes to the CSS... every > : time we do that, we're going to have to revisit the > : style changer and modify all the styles that go along > : with it... we have enough styles in there that we > : should be pretty good to go for a long time... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > with some minor exceptions whenever we visit a new feature. we should > always be careful though, i agree. cool, that's all i ask... consideration is 9/10 of the battle... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : doncha wish you hadn't asked? > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > nope. grain of salt, buddy, grain of salt. *grin* why, yes, i'll have two... > j/k who is this j/k guy? > it's all very valuable, but nonetheless debatable. bring it. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 26 13:30:00 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 26 13:30:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <3B38D2BE.5000102@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > i'm fine with that. > > support on other platforms is not necessary because this bit of code only > gets sent out if the user is running win/ie5+. no way. we've *never* had features that are platform specific.. either we get it to work across everything, or we dont use it IMO. once we start going down the road of 'just one feature for IE' only, it will only turn into one more feature. then another and another untill the site in IE is different than anything else. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : and on top of that, we keep adding more and more code, > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > kinda necessary for more features doncha think? > > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : these pages take forever to render on my home machine... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > nothing i can do for a tired, 3 year old machine on 33.6. sorry. why? since when is every evolt user on a fucking t-1 1Ghz 256Mb PC?? a perfect example of 'features' like this that we *DONT* need is the drop box when you edit an article that contains all 4000+ usernames. while it may render fast for you jeffy, its unusable to everyone else. i can point out numerous occasions - as i'm sure others can - where I've not edited an article at home because it takes so long to render. when and if you're creating features where have control over the audience, go nuts. not here. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : we don't need all this code we keep adding, but we > : keep going to town on it... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > that's a matter of perspective. wtf is that supposed to mean? no shit its perspective. its also one that more than aardvark has. > it's all very valuable, but nonetheless debatable. ? .djc. From emeyer at lclark.edu Tue Jun 26 13:36:25 2001 From: emeyer at lclark.edu (Erika Meyer) Date: Tue Jun 26 13:36:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] feedback on thewife/admin.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <39afba39931d.39931d39afba@augustine.gci.net> References: <39afba39931d.39931d39afba@augustine.gci.net> Message-ID: sweet! except for the handle, of course. c'est la guerre. *chomp* E >http://admin.evolt.org/ -- From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 26 13:51:15 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 26 13:51:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B38D2BE.5000102@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <200106261850.f5QIofN17233@leo.evolt.org> > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > > no way. we've *never* had features that are platform specific.. either > we get it to work across everything, or we dont use it IMO. once we > start going down the road of 'just one feature for IE' only, it will > only turn into one more feature. then another and another untill the > site in IE is different than anything else. he's got a point... although i thought there was something (outside of admin) that was IE-specific... either way, when we first started down the redesign road, we had discussed one version of the UI that would get deployed to all platforms, all users, all browsers... that was how i approached the HTML for the site... conditionalization based on user agent was something of a no-no, i had thought... are djc and i the only ones who thought this? this isn't an attack by any means, i just wanna know if we had that 'policy,' and if we did, are we moving away from it? > why? since when is every evolt user on a fucking t-1 1Ghz 256Mb PC?? well, the question is, is every IE5 user on a new machine? my IE5 install at home clearly isn't... > a perfect example of 'features' like this that we *DONT* need is the > drop box when you edit an article that contains all 4000+ usernames. yeah, i'm still holdin' on to that one as an issue... > while it may render fast for you jeffy, its unusable to everyone else. > i can point out numerous occasions - as i'm sure others can - where > I've not edited an article at home because it takes so long to render. you know, that's right, i never edit articles from home anymore, and since i rarely edited at work, i've noticed i don't edit at all... and i *know* i don't do it at home because of the select menu, but that is *so* not on-topic here... > when and if you're creating features where have control over the > audience, go nuts. not here. you said 'nuts' > > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > : we don't need all this code we keep adding, but we > > : keep going to town on it... > > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > that's a matter of perspective. > > wtf is that supposed to mean? no shit its perspective. its also one > that more than aardvark has. well, in that case, anyone else wanna weigh in? i always feel like i'm putting the smack down on stuff because it doesn't fit with our style, our theme, or code perspective, our user focus, etc... and i'm not apologizing for that, it's one of my roles here... From amanda at gawow.com Tue Jun 26 13:55:16 2001 From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson) Date: Tue Jun 26 13:55:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] bugs on aeo//reported by amanda Message-ID: Elfur asked me to forward bug reports/feature stuff to you all. I'm not subscribed so if you have questions, email me here: amanda at gawow.com. I am on Win 98, IE 5. You'll find feature remarks sprinkled in with the bugs. The bugs are noted by number. Hope this helps! - amanda ------------- 1. entered myself as a contact. On 'save' it read: "Errors: Company." Hmmm... there is no "company" field. Threw something in each form field, I still get the same error. chose the "evolt.org" option under "client" and it allowed me to save. huh. What's the point of that? At least change the error message. Although evolt as default would probably work. ------------- 2. the 'result' page gave me my contact plus everyone else's tried to "edit" my contact info, it sent me to an unfilled form -- went to the beginning, hit 'evolt.org' in the list; selected my name and then edit and went to a form with the fields filled in. ------------- 3. clicking on "reference" in the top nav gets a 404 ------------- 4. under "voting" if I choose "view responses" nothing happens. "vote" nothing happens. I think the only thing that should be up there should be "add question". How do we delete a question? ------------- 5. It seems like "users" information should directly relate to "contact" no? ------------- 6. Why can't I edit my calendar notation for July? If I click the little arrows to go to the next month after I have clicked "edit event" then I get this error: Diagnostics: An error occurred while evaluating the expression: attributes.nextmonth=#Evaluate(attributes.Month+1)# Error near line 7, column 8. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Cannot convert <7 to number. Please, check the ColdFusion manual for the allowed conversions between data types The error occurred while processing an element with a general identifier of (CFSET), occupying document position (7:2) to (7:60) in the template file /home/evolt/admin_html/calendar/dsp_calendar.cfm. DateTime: Tue Jun 26 13:46:05 2001 Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) Content: #Error.GeneratedContent# Remote Address: 65.4.38.128 Refering Document: http://admin.evolt.org/?action=Calendar&Calendar=List Template: /home/evolt/admin_html/index.cfm Query String: month=<7&year=2001 Please email this page to dan. -------------------- 7. I can't seem to get out of the "edit" "mode" now. Oh... wait, clicking on "home" in the nav refreshes the page and I'm out of edit mode. erk. -------------------- 8. Trying to edit July... I click the arrows to get to the July calendar (clicking the arrows kind of sucks, though, can't we have a list?)... choose "edit event" and it takes me to June. See above error. From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 14:07:56 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jun 26 14:07:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <200106261806.f5QI60N13835@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: aardvark, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: aardvark : : well, i haven't seen it unstyled... what is it : you're trying to achieve? make it look like a : link? make it stand out a bit? how about using : a good ol' fashioned ? that will change its : color... perhaps a strong, too... but since that : implies structure that isn't there, you'd be : better off inserting the style for bold in the ... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ first, go view it in its current incarnation. i've applied alot of the suggestions that have been made. check it now and let me know what you think. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : then we can discuss if we want to make a new class : for that... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ agreed. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : that class could then be applied to the author : link as well... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ possibly, but i don't see the treatment being the same. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > just implemented and tested and i don't like it. : > it's quite a bit longer than the + is wide causing : > the content to shift. at least the way it is now : > it just swaps the indicator and the title doesn't : > move. i'm leaving it as two hyphens until someone : > comes up with a better solution. : : ok, go with an en-dash, – ... it's probably more : what you're looking for... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ and the problem with just using two hyphens is? in the currently displayed font, two hyphens are exactly the same width as a plus so the title of the comment doesn't shift when i toggle display and change the visual indicator. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > scathing technicality : : heh... best kind... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bathwater should be boiling -- literally cuts and scrapes should be rinsed with jack daniels gargle with napalm to kill that morning breath :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : if that's the only way to do it, so be it... but i : had to register my opposition to s whenever : i'm not 100% sure they are justified... it would : be nice if you could apply the display property to : the parent container (the ) but i suspect that's : nigh impossible... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ it's easy as shit actually. the problem is that when you change the display property for a td you start affecting layout. in other words, if a comment is collapsed there's no longer a displayed cell to the left of the comment title and the cell stretches out to fill the content area and push up against the left side. as you can tell i already tried that and didn't like the results. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : global style calls for underlining i believe... : you can only override that inline... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ shouldn't it only cascade to that link if there's no class as well? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > there was a complaint that it was too bold compared : > to the title of the comment. : : the author was? hmmm... ok.... i don't remember what : the style was in there and i don't have the URL here : at work... do what you can... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ it was just set to pagetitle1 for the td and an h4 for the comment title. the author link was a standard link. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : you'll note that features generally don't impress me... : don't get me wrong, this is a great feature, but i'll : never use it... and i'm not sure how it immediately : benefits users... but there's also nothing wrong with : experimenting and gauging response from users... it's : probably the best way to test things... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ agreed. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > nothing i can do for a tired, 3 year old machine on : > 33.6. sorry. : : hey! it's 4.75 years old, and it is *not* tired, it's : resting its eyes... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i stand corrected. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > that's a matter of perspective. : : well, if we could kill those spans without adverse : affect, then that prespective has a point... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ see above. thanks, .jeff From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 26 14:11:36 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 26 14:11:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <01c0fe65$bc4ba540$3746149a@rudy> Message-ID: <200106261911.f5QJBZN18667@leo.evolt.org> > From: "rudy" > > okay adrian, it looks like the non-ascii characters are pretty safe > after all -- who woulda thunk it > > i'll try not to mention it again > > remind me if i forget, okay? no problem... that's not to say it's 100%, but for our audience, i think we're pretty safe... From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Tue Jun 26 14:34:32 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Jun 26 14:34:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <3B38D2BE.5000102@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <01f301c0fe77$3e9b43a0$afa11b18@cinci.rr.com> > no way. we've *never* had features that are platform specific.. either > we get it to work across everything, or we dont use it IMO. once we > start going down the road of 'just one feature for IE' only, it will > only turn into one more feature. then another and another untill the > site in IE is different than anything else. +1 We roll out this site that's standards-compliant and looks damn good in just about every client known to man. Then we roll out features that are for a specific platform+client??? Sorry, I don't like it. I dont' like the fact that it's for a specific portion of our audience only and I don't even see the benefit of it. What's the benefit? Screen space? Why isn't all of our content collapsable then? Now, if users could opt for a cookie that turned off comments site-wide (in the article page), I'd be down for that. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From roselli at earthlink.net Tue Jun 26 14:45:02 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Tue Jun 26 14:45:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: References: <200106261806.f5QI60N13835@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <200106261944.f5QJirN21266@leo.evolt.org> > From: ".jeff" > > first, go view it in its current incarnation. i've applied alot of > the suggestions that have been made. check it now and let me know > what you think. ok, i'm viewing http://test.evolt.org/article/expandomagico/21/10781/index.html the +/- thingie is offset awfully low... and the new black title gets lost with the hyperlink... we have a whole *lot* of crap going on in the left edge of those comments... it's link spaghetti... in fact, i'm more in favor of removing links... oh well, i'm just simple... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : then we can discuss if we want to make a new class > : for that... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > agreed. > > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : that class could then be applied to the author > : link as well... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > possibly, but i don't see the treatment being the same. perhaps not... but only because of the color change... i can't say i like the title black, i was thinking a darker green... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : > just implemented and tested and i don't like it. > : > it's quite a bit longer than the + is wide causing > : > the content to shift. at least the way it is now > : > it just swaps the indicator and the title doesn't > : > move. i'm leaving it as two hyphens until someone > : > comes up with a better solution. > : > : ok, go with an en-dash, – ... it's probably more > : what you're looking for... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > and the problem with just using two hyphens is? in the currently > displayed font, two hyphens are exactly the same width as a plus so > the title of the comment doesn't shift when i toggle display and > change the visual indicator. it looks like two hyphens... i probably see that much differently than anyone else, but i see it as someone who doesn't have a grasp of the character set and who didn't bother to test it... i know that isn't the case, but i've been watching the process and i know who's doing it... other people will see two hyphens... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : > scathing technicality > : > : heh... best kind... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > bathwater should be boiling -- literally > cuts and scrapes should be rinsed with jack daniels > gargle with napalm to kill that morning breath damn, there goes my paint thinner eyedropper kit... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : if that's the only way to do it, so be it... but i > : had to register my opposition to s whenever > : i'm not 100% sure they are justified... it would > : be nice if you could apply the display property to > : the parent container (the ) but i suspect that's > : nigh impossible... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > it's easy as shit actually. the problem is that when you change the > display property for a td you start affecting layout. in other words, > if a comment is collapsed there's no longer a displayed cell to the > left of the comment title and the cell stretches out to fill the > content area and push up against the left side. > > as you can tell i already tried that and didn't like the results. yeah, which is why i made the comment the way i did... i just assumed you had tested it... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : global style calls for underlining i believe... > : you can only override that inline... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > shouldn't it only cascade to that link if there's no class as well? if there's no class, it will be underlined... if you insert a new class that doesn't explicity handle the underlining, it will inherit it from the generic class... so you need to do it in the CSS a part of the new class, or inline... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : > there was a complaint that it was too bold compared > : > to the title of the comment. > : > : the author was? hmmm... ok.... i don't remember what > : the style was in there and i don't have the URL here > : at work... do what you can... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > it was just set to pagetitle1 for the td and an h4 for the comment > title. the author link was a standard link. ahhh... then i'd say cut the from that entire line... then darken up the h4, or class it as a comment h4... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : > nothing i can do for a tired, 3 year old machine on > : > 33.6. sorry. > : > : hey! it's 4.75 years old, and it is *not* tired, it's > : resting its eyes... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > i stand corrected. and it lays emphatically... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : > that's a matter of perspective. > : > : well, if we could kill those spans without adverse > : affect, then that prespective has a point... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > see above. see below. made you look ! From elfur at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 15:03:21 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Tue Jun 26 15:03:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <200106261850.f5QIofN17233@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <052801c0fe7a$5ddbb940$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: "aardvark" | > From: "Daniel J. Cody" | > | > no way. we've *never* had features that are platform specific.. either | > we get it to work across everything, or we dont use it IMO. once we | > start going down the road of 'just one feature for IE' only, it will | > only turn into one more feature. then another and another untill the | > site in IE is different than anything else. | | he's got a point... although i thought there was something (outside | of admin) that was IE-specific... either way, when we first started | down the redesign road, we had discussed one version of the UI | that would get deployed to all platforms, all users, all browsers... | that was how i approached the HTML for the site... | conditionalization based on user agent was something of a no-no, i | had thought... | | are djc and i the only ones who thought this? ok here's my thought on the matter: with this feature we aren't conditionalizing anything, yes, we're adding to the display in ie5 and 5.5 (not ie6beta) while we're not adding to the display for others - just as with our class usage we're adding to the display for those using gen4 browsers as opposed to those using gen3 browsers. As long as it is validated code, and doesn't hurt the display in other browsers, i don't see the problem. where we conditionalizing anything however ... *the interfering one* From dsmah at home.com Tue Jun 26 15:09:31 2001 From: dsmah at home.com (Dean Mah) Date: Tue Jun 26 15:09:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <01f301c0fe77$3e9b43a0$afa11b18@cinci.rr.com> from "Warden, Matt" at Jun 26, 2001 03:36:06 PM Message-ID: <200106262004.OAA02125@alice.monkeyland.ca> Warden, Matt writes: > We roll out this site that's standards-compliant and looks damn good > in just about every client known to man. Then we roll out features > that are for a specific platform+client??? Sorry, I don't like it. +1 > Now, if users could opt for a cookie that turned off comments > site-wide (in the article page), I'd be down for that. +1 Dean From joshua at alphashop.net Tue Jun 26 15:10:46 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.net (Joshua Olson) Date: Tue Jun 26 15:10:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <200106261806.f5QI60N13835@leo.evolt.org> <200106261944.f5QJirN21266@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <01ce01c0fe7c$133d2cf0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> : ok, i'm viewing : http://test.evolt.org/article/expandomagico/21/10781/index.html : : the +/- thingie is offset awfully low... and the new black title gets : lost with the hyperlink... : : we have a whole *lot* of crap going on in the left edge of those : comments... it's link spaghetti... : : in fact, i'm more in favor of removing links... : : oh well, i'm just simple... It is awefully low. What about shifting the +/- over to the right side, away from the grr/link. That way, if it's low or high it doesn't really matter, and that's one less link on the left side to get accidentaly triggered. Question: Does the fact that I have comments collapsed or expanded get memorized for when I reload????? I WANT THAT FEATURE... kind like a nice slab of bacon in a fruitcake. -joshua From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 26 15:16:06 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 26 15:16:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] bugs on aeo//reported by amanda References: Message-ID: <3B38EB97.4070400@starkmedia.com> A. Erickson wrote: > Hope this helps! > - amanda yes, thanks :) > 1. > entered myself as a contact. > > On 'save' it read: "Errors: Company." Hmmm... there is no "company" field. > > > > Threw something in each form field, I still get the same error. > > chose the "evolt.org" option under "client" and it allowed me to save. huh. > What's the point of that? At least change the error message. Although evolt > as default would probably work. all fixed. evolt also comes up as the default client now too > the 'result' page gave me my contact plus everyone else's yes, everyone else who is a contact for evolt.org.. it may not make sense with just evolt.org in there, but try to think of this 2 years down the road. chris snow(?) for a 'contact' under a 'tagwear' client.. dig? > tried to "edit" my contact info, it sent me to an unfilled form > went to the beginning, hit 'evolt.org' in the list; selected my name and > then edit and went to a form with the fields filled in. where were you the first time? i dont understand.. > clicking on "reference" in the top nav gets a 404 ok, gone till i get that working. > under "voting" if I choose "view responses" nothing happens. "vote" nothing > happens. I think the only thing that should be up there should be "add > question". can anyone else replicate this? > How do we delete a question? walker built an 'admin' piece into that > ------------- > 5. > It seems like "users" information should directly relate to "contact" no? no.. the users are the other people that can use admin.evolt.org. a 'contact' doesn't really mean they have access. think of the tagwear example above. chris will be a contact for tagwear, but he wont have access to admin.evolt.org, right? > Why can't I edit my calendar notation for July? good question, i'll have to work on that. > If I click the little arrows to go to the next month after I have clicked > "edit event" then I get this error: fixed.. > -------------------- > 8. > Trying to edit July... I click the arrows to get to the July calendar > (clicking the arrows kind of sucks, though, can't we have a list?)... choose > "edit event" and it takes me to June. See above error. ok, i'll work on that part.. thanks for the feedback. :) .djc. From amanda at gawow.com Tue Jun 26 15:34:06 2001 From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson) Date: Tue Jun 26 15:34:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] bugs on aeo//reported by amanda In-Reply-To: <3B38EB97.4070400@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > > the 'result' page gave me my contact plus everyone else's > > > yes, everyone else who is a contact for evolt.org.. it may not make > sense with just evolt.org in there, but try to think of this 2 years > down the road. chris snow(?) for a 'contact' under a 'tagwear' > client.. dig? Ah. I dig it. 'Course, for me, it seems unfortunate to have to enter contact information in two places ... what if I change my phone number... then I gotta change it in two places. 'dats all. > > tried to "edit" my contact info, it sent me to an unfilled form > > > went to the beginning, hit 'evolt.org' in the list; selected my name and > > then edit and went to a form with the fields filled in. > > > where were you the first time? i dont understand.. hm. Dunno. I can't replicate it now. > > under "voting" if I choose "view responses" nothing happens. > "vote" nothing > > happens. I think the only thing that should be up there should be "add > > question". > > > can anyone else replicate this? I just went in to double check but now I'm getting an error message under voting. Looks the same as before. I also noticed on the error page that the nav bar changes at the top. > > Trying to edit July... I click the arrows to get to the July calendar > > (clicking the arrows kind of sucks, though, can't we have a > list?)... choose > > "edit event" and it takes me to June. See above error. > > ok, i'll work on that part.. One other thing about the calendar though it may have been mentioned already... it would be nice to be able to do a date range. Fer instance, say I'm out of town, I could key in a start date and end date. This may be too complex though. Anyway, thanks for all the hard work on this, I think it's really fucking cool! - amanda From elfur at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 15:50:36 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Tue Jun 26 15:50:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <200106262004.OAA02125@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: <056801c0fe80$f9f84400$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: "Dean Mah" | > Now, if users could opt for a cookie that turned off comments | > site-wide (in the article page), I'd be down for that. | | +1 no, that's just flat wrong - me thinks ... *the interfering one* From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 26 15:56:56 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 26 15:56:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <200106261806.f5QI60N13835@leo.evolt.org> <200106261944.f5QJirN21266@leo.evolt.org> <01ce01c0fe7c$133d2cf0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: <3B38F525.4090502@starkmedia.com> I'm just curious here.. Why would you want a feature like that if you're never going to read the comments in the first place? Its not like you have to scroll through the comments to get to the article - in which case I could see this being usefull. Whats the point of scrolling down and acknowledging the comments just to make them disappear. And for each article. ???? Joshua Olson wrote: > Question: Does the fact that I have comments collapsed or expanded get > memorized for when I reload????? I WANT THAT FEATURE... kind like a nice > slab of bacon in a fruitcake. From joshua at alphashop.net Tue Jun 26 16:08:51 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.net (Joshua Olson) Date: Tue Jun 26 16:08:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <200106261806.f5QI60N13835@leo.evolt.org> <200106261944.f5QJirN21266@leo.evolt.org> <01ce01c0fe7c$133d2cf0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> <3B38F525.4090502@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <021701c0fe84$32e10600$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Hmmm... must've lost the sarcastic edge in translation. Personally, I don't even see a need for expando/collapso at all. -joshua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" Subject: Re: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org : I'm just curious here.. Why would you want a feature like that if you're : never going to read the comments in the first place? Its not like you : have to scroll through the comments to get to the article - in which : case I could see this being usefull. : : Whats the point of scrolling down and acknowledging the comments just to : make them disappear. And for each article. : : ???? : : Joshua Olson wrote: : : : > Question: Does the fact that I have comments collapsed or expanded get : > memorized for when I reload????? I WANT THAT FEATURE... kind like a nice : > slab of bacon in a fruitcake. From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Tue Jun 26 16:12:21 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Jun 26 16:12:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <200106262004.OAA02125@alice.monkeyland.ca> <056801c0fe80$f9f84400$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: <002d01c0fe84$f7c51380$afa11b18@cinci.rr.com> > From: "Elfur Logadottir" > Subject: Re: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org > > From: "Dean Mah" > > > | > Now, if users could opt for a cookie that turned off comments > | > site-wide (in the article page), I'd be down for that. > | > | +1 > > no, that's just flat wrong - me thinks ... Would be nice if you gave a reason. Seems to me that if someone doesn't want to read comment anyways, we might as well save them the downloaded bytes. Of course, each article would have a "Show Comments" link. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Jun 26 16:18:21 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Jun 26 16:18:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <200106261806.f5QI60N13835@leo.evolt.org> <200106261944.f5QJirN21266@leo.evolt.org> <01ce01c0fe7c$133d2cf0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> <3B38F525.4090502@starkmedia.com> <021701c0fe84$32e10600$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> Message-ID: <3B38FA25.2030409@starkmedia.com> erf.. sorry josh :) (the question is still there for anyone who wants it though, and wasn't being sarcastic) .djc. Joshua Olson wrote: > Hmmm... must've lost the sarcastic edge in translation. Personally, I don't > even see a need for expando/collapso at all. > > -joshua > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > Subject: Re: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org > > > : I'm just curious here.. Why would you want a feature like that if you're > : never going to read the comments in the first place? Its not like you > : have to scroll through the comments to get to the article - in which > : case I could see this being usefull. > : > : Whats the point of scrolling down and acknowledging the comments just to > : make them disappear. And for each article. > : > : ???? > : > : Joshua Olson wrote: > : > : > : > Question: Does the fact that I have comments collapsed or expanded get > : > memorized for when I reload????? I WANT THAT FEATURE... kind like a > nice > : > slab of bacon in a fruitcake. > > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From seth at sethbienek.com Tue Jun 26 16:41:31 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Tue Jun 26 16:41:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B38FA25.2030409@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <000d01c0fe88$04ab0ca0$2f01010a@dti2> > (the question is still there for anyone who wants it though, and wasn't > being sarcastic) Mmmm.. Bacon fruitcake... Err.. If you're interested, you can check the status of thelist Mporter process at any time by going here: http://lists.evolt.org/StatusCheck.cfm When it hits 100%, we are going to start implementing the new tip parser! Yay! Seth ----------------------------------- Seth Bienek Digitaris Technologies, Inc. tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 fax (972) 690-0617 icq 7673959 ----------------------------------- From seth at sethbienek.com Tue Jun 26 16:44:46 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Tue Jun 26 16:44:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <000d01c0fe88$04ab0ca0$2f01010a@dti2> Message-ID: <000e01c0fe88$6b4fe7a0$2f01010a@dti2> Doh! > http://lists.evolt.org/StatusCheck.cfm Should have been > http://lists.evolt.org/mporter/StatusCheck.cfm Seth ----------------------------------- Seth Bienek Digitaris Technologies, Inc. tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 fax (972) 690-0617 icq 7673959 ----------------------------------- From mccreath at ak.net Tue Jun 26 16:46:58 2001 From: mccreath at ak.net (mccreath) Date: Tue Jun 26 16:46:58 2001 Subject: IE5 features vs. non ( was : RE: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org) In-Reply-To: <3B38D2BE.5000102@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > > i'm fine with that. > > > > support on other platforms is not necessary because this bit of > code only > > gets sent out if the user is running win/ie5+. > > no way. we've *never* had features that are platform specific.. either > we get it to work across everything, or we dont use it IMO. once we > start going down the road of 'just one feature for IE' only, it will > only turn into one more feature. then another and another untill the > site in IE is different than anything else. Just looking for some middle ground here. If I understand Jeff's implementation of this correctly, it's using JavaScript and CSS according to spec. It's not IE5-only in the sense that it's a Microsoft tool that's been put in place, it's just that IE5 is the only browser that's correctly interpreting correclty written JavaScript and CSS. Do I understand that correctly? If so, I don't have a problem putting on there, in principal. As Elfur pointed out, our colors and fonts don't show up for certain browers either. We hit as many as we could, but in trying to look forward, we decided that some folks wouldn't get the same site visually that others get. As to the usefulness of it, I dunno. I think it's *cool*, but ... I see it being useful in a couple of ways: If it could remember that I collapsed comments, then great. As it stood when I tried it last, all the comments that I had collapsed opened up again when I minimized the sidebar. bummer, but hardly the end of the world. I think Matt was onto something that actually could become a feature of the site, rather than a doo-hickey, and it could conceivably help people like aardvark who uses a new browser on an old machine with a slow connection. If we let people set a preference for the default state of the comments (collapsed versus non-collapsed), it could actually lower download times for some of the longer conversations. It would require some extra programming, for sure, but does that seem like a reasonable use for it? David From seth at sethbienek.com Tue Jun 26 16:50:11 2001 From: seth at sethbienek.com (Seth Bienek) Date: Tue Jun 26 16:50:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] mporter In-Reply-To: <000d01c0fe88$04ab0ca0$2f01010a@dti2> Message-ID: <000f01c0fe89$3bdbd050$2f01010a@dti2> Some Questions, Now that the messages are going into the thelist database, do we need to formulate a process for getting those into the content table, or are we going to worry about doing that? Also, once the tip parser starts running, I would like to relate the tips to their source threads, authors, and original messages. We have the data to do it; my question is, do we want to refer to the messages by their primary key (an id field), or something more obscure, in order to prevent spidering - or do we care? Just some thoughts.. Seth ----------------------------------- Seth Bienek Digitaris Technologies, Inc. tel (972) 690-4131, ext. 103 fax (972) 690-0617 icq 7673959 ----------------------------------- From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Tue Jun 26 16:55:21 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Tue Jun 26 16:55:21 2001 Subject: IE5 features vs. non ( was : RE: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org) References: Message-ID: <007101c0fe8a$f9057400$afa11b18@cinci.rr.com> > From: "mccreath" > Subject: IE5 features vs. non ( was : RE: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org) > ... > I think Matt was onto something that actually could become a feature of the > site, rather than a doo-hickey, and it could conceivably help people like > aardvark who uses a new browser on an old machine with a slow connection. > > If we let people set a preference for the default state of the comments > (collapsed versus non-collapsed), Really, I only see the all-expanded or all-collapsed states as useful. > It would require some extra programming, > for sure Dude, it's setting the cookie, and then there's an extra around the comments display. You're forgetting that Jeff 'n Dan are fucking modular-code-writing gods. Even I could implement this shiz... and that's saying a lot. That said, I'd be happy to write it if this is what we're settling on. Just seems silly to me to download bytes we're gonna hide from the user anyways. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From mccreath at ak.net Tue Jun 26 17:02:46 2001 From: mccreath at ak.net (mccreath) Date: Tue Jun 26 17:02:46 2001 Subject: IE5 features vs. non ( was : RE: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org) In-Reply-To: <007101c0fe8a$f9057400$afa11b18@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: > > If we let people set a preference for the default state of the comments > > (collapsed versus non-collapsed), > > Really, I only see the all-expanded or all-collapsed states as useful. > > > It would require some extra programming, > > for sure > > Dude, it's setting the cookie, and then there's an extra around the > comments display. You're forgetting that Jeff 'n Dan are fucking > modular-code-writing gods. Lemme make sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking about a user sets a preference to see *each* comment expanded or collapsed, not whether the entire comments block appears. So a person would see the headers for comments and whether something has been added since he/she was last there. Are you talking about one large expando/collapso for the entire comments section? I like my way better, but I'm not wedded to it. > Even I could implement this shiz... and that's saying a lot. Dude, I'm all over the cookie concept. Even *I*, arch-dinobot that I am, have implemented cookies. ;p > That said, I'd be happy to write it if this is what we're > settling on. Just seems silly to me to download bytes we're > gonna hide from the user anyways. Trudat. David From elfur at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 17:17:31 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Tue Jun 26 17:17:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <200106262004.OAA02125@alice.monkeyland.ca> <056801c0fe80$f9f84400$40aefea9@DWARFS> <002d01c0fe84$f7c51380$afa11b18@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: <05be01c0fe8d$20108010$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: "Warden, Matt" | > | > Now, if users could opt for a cookie that turned off comments | > | > site-wide (in the article page), I'd be down for that. | > | | > | +1 | > | > no, that's just flat wrong - me thinks ... | | Would be nice if you gave a reason. Seems to me that if someone doesn't want | to read comment anyways, we might as well save them the downloaded bytes. well, if we're offering the comment option - why make viewing it difficult - it's there that's why i read it. collapsing it as an option i think is ok, since then you can collapse the one's you've read thus keeping them out of your way. where as having the comments a click away, it's more common for me not to read them at all. *the interfering one* From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 17:22:46 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jun 26 17:22:46 2001 Subject: IE5 features vs. non ( was : RE: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org) In-Reply-To: <007101c0fe8a$f9057400$afa11b18@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: matt, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Warden, Matt : : > It would require some extra programming, : > for sure : : Dude, it's setting the cookie, and then there's : an extra around the comments display. : You're forgetting that Jeff 'n Dan are fucking : modular-code-writing gods. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ a cookie is *not* the answer. i'm seriously opposed to that sort of solution. i agree that it would be more useful if it remembered it's state between visits (but not logins) to thesite, but please do *not* do this with a cookie without talking more about it. if we do it with a cookie then let's set it via javascript so we don't have to hit the server again simply to store a preference. we can read it later from coldfusion if we want (maybe to not send comments down the pipe if they'd prefer to have them collapsed by default). that brings up an issue though which is the expando link would have now unset the cookie and reload the page to get the contents of the comments -- lots of things to take into consideration. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : That said, I'd be happy to write it if this is : what we're settling on. Just seems silly to me : to download bytes we're gonna hide from the : user anyways. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ agreed. however, let's keep something in mind. they're only collapsed by default if there are more than 15 (or whatever friggin number we wanna decided on) comments. i can see the side of the debate that says if they're not displayed then don't send the bytes down the pipe. if we implement something that involves remembering the user's preferred state and they prefer all collapsed, then we could go off that and not send the bytes down the pipe. however, they don't make a choice, i'd rather have a dhtml solution in place that simply hides the comments until they choose to view a particular one. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Jun 26 17:34:11 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Jun 26 17:34:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] bugs on aeo//reported by amanda References: <3B38EB97.4070400@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <004c01c0fe8f$a408ea40$18e9a1d1@mef> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" | | A. Erickson wrote: | | > under "voting" if I choose "view responses" nothing happens. "vote" nothing | > happens. I think the only thing that should be up there should be "add | > question". | | | can anyone else replicate this? Nope .. seems fine .. Amanda, did you click on one the questions (links) to either vote or view the responses? Or do you not even see a list of questions (links) at all? It looks like you have voted on things tho. I can't duplicate here. Michele From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Jun 26 18:15:37 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Jun 26 18:15:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] Google fun ... was .. Fw: [***list] Re: htaccess & robots.txt - blocking accesses to images from outside Message-ID: <00b101c0fe95$6d01f180$18e9a1d1@mef> Hey folks .. This is odd .. what google is doing. Should we add a forbid rule? Nice screen caps from articles and other stuff .. not sure it should be crawling from aeo/user or meo/user. It's obviously an incomplete list .. as far as the different images on our various sites, missing the navigation, images in the FAQ, not to mention meo accounts. Paola brought it up on thelist. Thoughts ? Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paola Kathuria" | I also came across a 'more from this site' link on Google's | image search and so found that one can display images from a | single site in one page. For example, searching on evolt for | pages/images (?) including the word 'evolt' finds 63 images: | http://images.google.com/images?q=+site%3Aevolt.org+evolt | | I think that the forbid rule for evolt.org would be: | | RewriteEngine On | RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} !^$ | RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} !^http://[^?]*evolt.org/.*$ [NC] | RewriteRule .*\.(jpg|gif)$ - [F] From isaac at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 22:41:48 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Tue Jun 26 22:41:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B38D2BE.5000102@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: > either we get it to work across everything, or we dont use it IMO. quick - delete the stylesheet! css is an enhancement for browsers that support it. our site is still usable with or without it. i see things with expand/collapse similarly. i think that we have a few issues here: (a) is the expand/collapse feature useful for anyone? (b) would being able to disable comments (remembered by a cookie or pref) be useful for anyone? (c) how should the expand/collapse stuff, and the title/authorname, be styled so that comment titles are not almost invisible as they have been? (d) should we add features/enhancements that do not work for *every* prospective visitor? --- (a) i would use it. i suggested it. i can read every comment on the expandomagic example article (http://test.evolt.org/article/expandomagico/21/10781/index.html) without scrolling from my position. (start with all collapsed, and expand each to read, and then collapse). i prefer to be able to read a comment at a time without the distraction of an epic listing (example: alan's smart tag article with 34 comments). if i want to have multiple comments open, i can. (b) i wouldn't use it, but it might be useful for some people and should be considered. (c) the comment title needs to be more visible than it is currently on WEO. i would rather that the +/-- change stayed the same. jeff's method achieves this without using 2 images. i think it looks shitty when, onclick, the comment title shifts around. adrian - what resolution are you viewing the site at? it might be that jeff and i are not noticing the "--" as much due to being at a higher resolution. to me, the -- looks like a longish - unless i move closer to the monitor. (d) if we can ensure that other visitors are not adversely effected by the addition of enhanced features (css is a good example) and that essential sections are always available (ie, being able to edit an article in a textarea if you don't have something that supports the richtext editor), then i don't see a huge problem. in the specific case of expand/collapse code, if it is possible and well-documented for mozilla/netscape6, could someone code that? then we'd have an ie5+/mozilla/netscape6+ enhancement, just like our CSS styling is an enhancement for 4+ netscape/ie, and opera/icab/mozilla, etc. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 0414 758 000 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Jun 26 23:40:18 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Jun 26 23:40:18 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B38D2BE.5000102@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Daniel J. Cody : : > support on other platforms is not necessary : > because this bit of code only gets sent out : > if the user is running win/ie5+. : : no way. we've *never* had features that are platform : specific.. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ah, careful what you say kemosabe. several have already listed css as an example. also, would this be as big of an issue if i told you i implemented it for nn6 users only? what about mozilla/linux users only? or is it more of an issue because i chose my os of choice -- the os that's easiest for me to do initial prototyping and development with? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : either we get it to work across everything, or : we dont use it IMO. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ah, so there goes dhtml in any fashion. hell, even javascript is completely out then too. shit, that'd make html v4 a waste as well. while we're at it, let's throw out images too -- there's some browsers out there that don't even display images. back to reality though, i know the point you're trying to make, but i'm trying to say you're argument is too broad to the point of being impossible to implement anything that successfully meets your criteria. the important thing about thesite is that the content is accessible and usable. whether or not we come back in and add enhancements to that user experience to improve the accessibility and/or usability for users of newer browsers is beside the point so long as we don't affect that foundational accessibility/usability we have in place. am i considering adding my richtext editor as an optional tool for submitting articles. you better f*cking believe it. why? cause alot of the people using the site are going to find it useful. hell, i'll bet it'd even increase the number of articles we get submitted cause people wouldn't have to f*ck around with html. yeah, non-window users can't use it. yeah, non-ie users can't use it. if mozilla would get off their ass and develop their scripted editing environment i'd implement that on thesite for mozilla/nn6 users. you know what though, nobody wants to take that bull by the horns and ride him so i guess you don't get that fancy feature. that doesn't keep you from submitting articles though does it? you just don't get the time-saving benefit of the richtext editor. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : once we start going down the road of 'just one : feature for IE' only, it will only turn into one : more feature. then another and another untill the : site in IE is different than anything else. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ is that what you think? i'm not the only one working on the site you know. furthermore, while i do prefer developing for ie-only (it's unfathomable hours less time to develop for than anything else), i understand the importance of doing more than that on mission-critical elements that are used publicly. that's not to say that occasionally we won't run up against an idea that's only possible in ie for support reasons or sheer coding effort reasons and end up deciding it would benefit the majority of our audience (who just so happen to be running win/ie). :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > nothing i can do for a tired, 3 year old machine : > on 33.6. sorry. : : why? since when is every evolt user on a fucking : t-1 1Ghz 256Mb PC?? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i honestly wouldn't know or care. you see, i don't even match those system requirements, so why the f*ck would i develop to them? i was making a joke specifically for aardvark's enjoyment because i know his home machine is trusty, but bordering on senile. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : a perfect example of 'features' like this that we : *DONT* need is the drop box when you edit an : article that contains all 4000+ usernames. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ now that's a completely separate issue. however, if you wanna throw all your stones at once (when this coulda/shoulda/woulda been brought up months ago when it was implemented) that's fine by me. what else have i built that people are upset about or don't like? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : while it may render fast for you jeffy, its unusable : to everyone else. i can point out numerous occasions : - as i'm sure others can - where I've not edited an : article at home because it takes so long to render. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i beg to differ. there have been other people that said it was fine. i know it's an issue for some and for that reason am considering possible solutions. however, finding the time to just jump in there and implement something is a bit of a pain. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : when and if you're creating features where have : control over the audience, go nuts. not here. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ when someone here at evolt.org is signing my f*cking checks *then* they can tell me how to work, what to do, etc. until then, let's keep in mind that we're all busting our ass, on our own time/dime, and do this cause it's supposed to be fun. when i'm getting reamed for jumping on an idea that i think would be neat (when i don't really have the time to be doing it anyway), that doesn't make me wanna be so quick to help out in the future. dig? thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ ps -- i tested it on a mac/ie5. it works peachy. oh, and i fiddled with it a bit and got it working in nn6 too. happy now? From isaac at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 00:43:34 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Wed Jun 27 00:43:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : a perfect example of 'features' like this that we > : *DONT* need is the drop box when you edit an > : article that contains all 4000+ usernames. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > now that's a completely separate issue. however, if you wanna throw all > your stones at once (when this coulda/shoulda/woulda been brought > up months > ago when it was implemented) that's fine by me. i believe that this has since been discussed on admin or thesite. i think that a good solution would be to pop a new window with the username/id listing and choose/enter from that. dan, are you familiar enough with that editing form to make the changes? anyone else have a preference? i From martin at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 01:57:24 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Wed Jun 27 01:57:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org Message-ID: <07bab0056061b61PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> isaac wrote on 27/6/01 5:39 am >css is an enhancement for browsers that support it. our site is still usable >with or without it. i see things with expand/collapse similarly. I agree, but where is it in the prioritised ttdl? Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From isaac at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 02:14:19 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Wed Jun 27 02:14:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <07bab0056061b61PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: > >css is an enhancement for browsers that support it. our site is > still usable > >with or without it. i see things with expand/collapse similarly. > > I agree, but where is it in the prioritised ttdl? demonstration live on test.evolt.org, and has been commented on. however, a mass of issues bundled together appear to have confused the issue. i've asked these to be clarified separately so that we can determine further action. jeff's point (often made) is that as a volunteer worker, his contribution to evolt is inconsistent (some spare time here, lots there, etc) and dictated by his personal feelings on particular features (and fair enough, imo). if top of the ttdl is featureX, but featureY is what grabs his interest (and it's something that he is able to implement in the 5 minutes before a midnight snack), i wouldn't want to discourage that contribution. another issue that has arisen in the past is that of correct test.evolt.org procedure, and i believe that in this case, that has been fairly followed. a feature was proposed and demonstrated on the test server. discussion is occuring. the issues from that will hopefully be resolved before we make any decision to throw it onto WEO or not. how are the processes going? what are the processes? what will they affect? i From john at userfrenzy.com Wed Jun 27 06:41:06 2001 From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar) Date: Wed Jun 27 06:41:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] Young Oxford man seen killing thebot. More news at 11 In-Reply-To: <04d701c0fe51$9a13d150$c3fda8c0@evolt> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Elfur Logad?ttir > Sent: 26 June 2001 16:07 > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thesite] Young Oxford man seen killing thebot. More news > at 11 > > > From: "Garrett Coakley" > | > | D'oh... > | > | Sorry guys. I killed thebot. Mucho apologies, didn't realise > you could hurt > | its feelings like that *:/ > > where you fighting with it as michele did the other day :) > please don't fight with it - at least if you do, don't tell it to > shut up :) He's back. Try not to do that when I'm off sick :-) ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 7209 4117 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ From john at userfrenzy.com Wed Jun 27 06:43:46 2001 From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar) Date: Wed Jun 27 06:43:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <052801c0fe7a$5ddbb940$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Elfur Logadottir > Sent: 26 June 2001 20:58 > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org > > > ok here's my thought on the matter: > > with this feature we aren't conditionalizing anything, yes, we're > adding to > the display in ie5 and 5.5 (not ie6beta) while we're not adding to the > display for others - just as with our class usage we're adding to the > display for those using gen4 browsers as opposed to those using gen3 > browsers. My 2p... The conversations aren't threaded and the flow is expanded by default. I'm not seeing a point to this. ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 7209 4117 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ From elfur at lists.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 08:14:51 2001 From: elfur at lists.evolt.org (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Elfur_Logad=F3ttir?=) Date: Wed Jun 27 08:14:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <009701c0ff0a$6fa4c8c0$c3fda8c0@evolt> From: "John Handelaar" | | The conversations aren't threaded and the flow is expanded | by default. | | I'm not seeing a point to this. you're not seeing a point to adding this feature, because all are expanded now .. ok. the main think with this is however adding the possibility to collapse *some* of the comments, when the comments are many - or even collapse *all* comments, and expand on at a time. anyways, the option is there, but you surely don't have to use it, and it doesn't affect your user experience at all. however - nothing is supposed to be threaded - that wasn't what was being added - only a show/hide content part of comments. e From john at userfrenzy.com Wed Jun 27 09:05:01 2001 From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar) Date: Wed Jun 27 09:05:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <009701c0ff0a$6fa4c8c0$c3fda8c0@evolt> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of Elfur Logad?ttir > Sent: 27 June 2001 14:10 > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: Re: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org > > > From: "John Handelaar" > | > | The conversations aren't threaded and the flow is expanded > | by default. > | > | I'm not seeing a point to this. > > you're not seeing a point to adding this feature, because all are > expanded now > .. ok. > the main think with this is however adding the possibility to > collapse *some* of > the comments, when the comments are many - or even collapse *all* > comments, and > expand on at a time. If so, -10^999. It's fine the way it is. If not, it doesn't do anything. I mean, nice trick and all, but IMO it's feature-creeping without an obvious benefit ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 7209 4117 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Wed Jun 27 09:56:22 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Wed Jun 27 09:56:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <011b01c0ff18$aa889670$7303020a@hg2p201> > From: "John Handelaar" > Subject: RE: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org > > > From: "John Handelaar" > > | > > | The conversations aren't threaded and the flow is expanded > > | by default. > > | > > | I'm not seeing a point to this. > > > > you're not seeing a point to adding this feature, because all are > > expanded now > > .. ok. > > the main think with this is however adding the possibility to > > collapse *some* of > > the comments, when the comments are many - or even collapse *all* > > comments, and > > expand on at a time. > > If so, -10^999. It's fine the way it is. > > If not, it doesn't do anything. I mean, nice trick and all, > but IMO it's feature-creeping without an obvious benefit You're absolutely right. And no one's even answered the "what good is this?" question. I don't see the benefit in allowing IE5+Windows the ability to hide the already-downloaded content in specific comments. An article has 10 comments... I click 10 times to collapse them all... then what? What the heck was the point of that? Less amount of scrolling? Hell, I'd be in favor of a "next comment" anchor that jumped the screen to the next comment before I'd be in favor of this. I just don't see the reasoning for it. I have a clarification of my suggestion (believe me, there neededt to be a clarification) sitting in the outbox of my email client. I tried sending it last night, but we've been having trouble with the cable connection since we moved and it wasn't w3rkin last night. I'll send it along when I get home. Thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 27 10:04:37 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 27 10:04:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <3B39F3F0.4020808@starkmedia.com> some others have brought up this point, and the big thing thats being overlooked is the fact that when I come into evolt.org with NS3 I see everything that ie5.5 sees, sans colors. There is no loss of functionality or content. isaac wrote: > >>either we get it to work across everything, or we dont use it IMO. >> > > quick - delete the stylesheet! > > css is an enhancement for browsers that support it. our site is still usable > with or without it. i see things with expand/collapse similarly. From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 27 10:26:02 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 27 10:26:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <3B39F8F7.4020202@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > ah, careful what you say kemosabe. > > several have already listed css as an example. see last post to iSac for that. > also, would this be as big of an issue if i told you i implemented it for > nn6 users only? what about mozilla/linux users only? or is it more of an > issue because i chose my os of choice -- the os that's easiest for me to do > initial prototyping and development with? dude, don't fucking hang flame bait out like that.. you *know* that i would have said the same thing if you developed it for Opera only. and believe it or not, its got nothing to do with you. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : either we get it to work across everything, or > : we dont use it IMO. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ah, so there goes dhtml in any fashion. hell, even javascript is completely [snipageofwahwah] dont throw a tantrum. > am i considering adding my richtext editor as an optional tool for [snipage of teen-like rebellion] interesting that you're apparently the one and only stop for desecions here. i'll save usefull comments till you've calmed > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : a perfect example of 'features' like this that we > : *DONT* need is the drop box when you edit an > : article that contains all 4000+ usernames. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > now that's a completely separate issue. however, if you wanna throw all > your stones at once (when this coulda/shoulda/woulda been brought up months > ago when it was implemented) that's fine by me. what else have i built that > people are upset about or don't like? its a different issue only in that it happened a couple months ago. it has been brought up numerous times here(i believe) and on admin. you just choose not to respond, like you've choosen not to respond to some of my questions in this thread.. *shrug* > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : while it may render fast for you jeffy, its unusable > : to everyone else. i can point out numerous occasions > : - as i'm sure others can - where I've not edited an > : article at home because it takes so long to render. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > i beg to differ. there have been other people that said it was fine. i > know it's an issue for some and for that reason am considering possible > solutions. however, finding the time to just jump in there and implement > something is a bit of a pain. you found the time to jump in with it to begin with, as well as this latest feature.. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : when and if you're creating features where have > : control over the audience, go nuts. not here. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > when someone here at evolt.org is signing my f*cking checks *then* they can > tell me how to work, what to do, etc. until then, let's keep in mind that > we're all busting our ass, on our own time/dime, and do this cause it's > supposed to be fun. when i'm getting reamed for jumping on an idea that i > think would be neat (when i don't really have the time to be doing it > anyway), that doesn't make me wanna be so quick to help out in the future. > dig? hey, reminder: you're not the only one doing work. don't get snippy when others that do just as much as you get upset when they see zero input on something they're working on get changed. yes, we're all busting our ass blah blah. it is fun except when you come through like a fucking mac truck with a fuck-everyone else attitude. for me at least, i can't speak for anyone else. you're only getting 'reamed' because this has happened before(lack of input, heads up, anything in the way of what is going on) i don't know what to tell ya, except that there *are* rules here even if they're unspoken. #1 rule is noone just goes off and does shit because we all work together. its your choice to help out and be part of that group, and we all appreciate that. don't threaten to take your ball and walk away like that either.. its your choice what you spend your time on. while you spend it here, i'd expect for you - and anyone else - to play by the rules > ps -- i tested it on a mac/ie5. it works peachy. oh, and i fiddled with it > a bit and got it working in nn6 too. happy now? You bet! My statement against platform specific *features* doesn't just go for this either.. I just don't think its worth all this chatter, and still waiting for an answer to: http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-June/001901.html Thanks bunches! .djc. From bheerssen at visualbridge.tv Wed Jun 27 11:32:53 2001 From: bheerssen at visualbridge.tv (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Wed Jun 27 11:32:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <3B3A09EF.7080300@visualbridge.tv> 'Scuse me if I butt in here: I gotta say that I'm opposed to this new feature. I don't see that it adds a lot of value to the user experience, but I do see that it adds a lot of extra complexity to the code. Furthermore, this is the type of feature that is very difficult to get to work right across browsers and OS's. FWIW, I do think that it's very cool as a programming excersize, which is a major part of being an evoltian, but it shouldn't be given a chance to interfere with evolt's other missions, such as providing a reliable resource to the community. Here's an example of what can happen: http://www.heerssen.com/evolt_comments.gif Notice the text in the second comment. Now, this was taken from win2k/moz 0.9.1, and I realize that this is a minority browser that hasn't even achieved 1.0 release yet, and I also realize that the script may not be completely finished, but I do think that this is indicative of the kinds of things that can happen. Anyway, that's my two cents - I hope you will weigh it accordingly (I heard on npr this morning that a penny weighs about 2.5 grams, if that helps) -Bruce From martin at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 13:12:52 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Wed Jun 27 13:12:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org Message-ID: <0874b3011181b61PCOW029M@blueyonder.co.uk> isaac wrote on 27/6/01 9:12 am >> >css is an enhancement for browsers that support it. our site is >> still usable >> >with or without it. i see things with expand/collapse similarly. >> >> I agree, but where is it in the prioritised ttdl? > > >demonstration live on test.evolt.org, and has been commented on. > >however, a mass of issues bundled together appear to have confused the >issue. i've asked these to be clarified separately so that we can determine >further action. > > >jeff's point (often made) is that as a volunteer worker, his contribution to >evolt is inconsistent (some spare time here, lots there, etc) and dictated >by his personal feelings on particular features (and fair enough, imo). if >top of the ttdl is featureX, but featureY is what grabs his interest (and >it's something that he is able to implement in the 5 minutes before a >midnight snack), i wouldn't want to discourage that contribution. Absolutely not. >another issue that has arisen in the past is that of correct test.evolt.org >procedure, and i believe that in this case, that has been fairly followed. a >feature was proposed and demonstrated on the test server. discussion is >occuring. the issues from that will hopefully be resolved before we make any >decision to throw it onto WEO or not. And that sounds fair. Part of that discussion is 'how do we prioritise taking demos forward to production services?' And we need to get to a place where stuff that grabs the interest can be moved forward, while making sure that the stuff at the top of the ttdl still gets done. And another part of the discussion is 'is this A Good Thing' to have? (without saying that this particular example isn't) >how are the processes going? what are the processes? what will they affect? Slowly. We're working through 'what processes do we have so far'. Can I give fair warning on this - developing proposals for processes isn't going to happen overnight. It's something we as an organisation haven't really done before, so we're having to get used to that too. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 13:59:22 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 27 13:59:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B38F525.4090502@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Daniel J. Cody : : Whats the point of scrolling down and : acknowledging the comments just to make : them disappear. And for each article. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ comments are collapsed by default for any article that has more than a specified number (currently set at 15). you expand and read as you like (or expand all from the get go). .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 14:13:12 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 27 14:13:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B3A09EF.7080300@visualbridge.tv> Message-ID: bruce, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Bruce Heerssen : : 'Scuse me if I butt in here: :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ sure, no problem. it's good to see you can handle the heat in the kitchen. *grin* :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : I gotta say that I'm opposed to this new : feature. I don't see that it adds a lot of : value to the user experience, [...] :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ possibly for the same reason that others don't think it adds much -- cause they don't completely understand how/when it works? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : but I do see that it adds a lot of extra : complexity to the code. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ it's actually not quite as complex as you might think. it adds approximately 32 lines of javascript necessary to achieve the affect and a couple dozen characters of code/text to each comment. if this were to make it to production, those 32 lines of code would be extracted into an external javascript file making the actual impact of this feature on the end user very small. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : Furthermore, this is the type of feature that : is very difficult to get to work right across : browsers and OS's. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ not as hard as you might think. so long as we stick with dom compliant code, perform object/method detection before attempting to access particular objects or execute particular methods we should be ok. i've taken it to another level where i perform some detection server-side to save sending down the bits relevant to this feature to only those browsers i currently know to support it. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : FWIW, I do think that it's very cool as a programming : excersize, which is a major part of being an evoltian, : but it shouldn't be given a chance to interfere with : evolt's other missions, such as providing a reliable : resource to the community. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ and how is it going to have a chance of interfering? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : http://www.heerssen.com/evolt_comments.gif : : Notice the text in the second comment. : : Now, this was taken from win2k/moz 0.9.1, and I realize : that this is a minority browser that hasn't even : achieved 1.0 release yet, and I also realize that the : script may not be completely finished, but I do think : that this is indicative of the kinds of things that : can happen. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ the script is finished. judging from the screen capture, i'd say the browser isn't reflowing the document to accommodate the comment after it's display property is set from none to block. that sounds like a bug in the browser itself. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Wed Jun 27 14:26:06 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Wed Jun 27 14:26:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <00a101c0ff3e$503b9070$7303020a@hg2p201> > From: ".jeff" > Subject: RE: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org > ... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : I gotta say that I'm opposed to this new > : feature. I don't see that it adds a lot of > : value to the user experience, [...] > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > possibly for the same reason that others don't think it adds much -- cause > they don't completely understand how/when it works? No. I'm pretty sure we all understand this thing. It collapses automagically when the recordcount of comments is greater than (or equal to?) 15 and the client viewing the page is either IE5 or NN6. All other times it's expanded by default, but for some reason can be collapsed manually. The state of collapse/expand is not stored and all comments are downloaded no matter what. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : but I do see that it adds a lot of extra > : complexity to the code. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > it's actually not quite as complex as you might think. I'm pretty sure he's referring to saving the state of each comment. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : Furthermore, this is the type of feature that > : is very difficult to get to work right across > : browsers and OS's. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > not as hard as you might think. so long as we stick with dom compliant > code, perform object/method detection before attempting to access particular > objects or execute particular methods we should be ok. i've taken it to > another level where i perform some detection server-side to save sending > down the bits relevant to this feature to only those browsers i currently > know to support it. So, we're worried about sending extra bytes of code when they're not needed, but not worried about sending extra bytes of comments when the user isn't going to read them anyways? > the script is finished. judging from the screen capture, i'd say the > browser isn't reflowing the document to accommodate the comment after it's > display property is set from none to block. that sounds like a bug in the > browser itself. So, you're not worried about it? -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 27 14:36:37 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 27 14:36:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <3B3A33A8.9070608@starkmedia.com> So when susyuser hits an article with more than 15(or whatever) comments, she has to 'unclick' each and every comment. If our discussions were threaded, I could understand making a user 'unclick' a particular thread like on usenet. If you start unclicking at the top of the comments, each comment expands further and further down the page. So now you have to scroll the page down every 3 or 4 comments depending on length *and* unlick each thread. Isn't it just easier to scroll in the first place? only 1% of approved articles on evolt have more than 15 comments. 3% have more than 10. 22% have more than 3 comments. Why make the vast majority of people bend over backwards for something they're not expecting(when they do get a 15 comment article), and something that makes it harder for them to view the page? Seeming very adament about this, .djc. .jeff wrote: > comments are collapsed by default for any article that has more than a > specified number (currently set at 15). you expand and read as you like (or > expand all from the get go). From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 27 14:41:19 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 27 14:41:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <3B3A34C5.5030207@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > possibly for the same reason that others don't think it adds much -- cause > they don't completely understand how/when it works? is there something we haven't seen on t.e.o yet or what? .djc. From roselli at earthlink.net Wed Jun 27 14:53:52 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Wed Jun 27 14:53:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: References: <3B3A09EF.7080300@visualbridge.tv> Message-ID: <200106271953.f5RJrjN12034@leo.evolt.org> > From: ".jeff" > > the script is finished. judging from the screen capture, i'd say the > browser isn't reflowing the document to accommodate the comment after > it's display property is set from none to block. that sounds like a > bug in the browser itself. you *do* know how that sounds, right? whenever i hear that without a trailing, 'but we'll look into it,' or a 'it's the best we can do, does it meet our needs?' i tend to get very wary... so, we know it's a bug... now, are you saying that you intend to leave it or address it? i don't care what the answer is either way, i just wanna know what's gonna happen... From joshua at alphashop.net Wed Jun 27 15:03:26 2001 From: joshua at alphashop.net (Joshua Olson) Date: Wed Jun 27 15:03:26 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <3B3A09EF.7080300@visualbridge.tv> <200106271953.f5RJrjN12034@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <041401c0ff44$397ee390$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com> From aardvark, : > From: ".jeff" : > : > the script is finished. judging from the screen capture, i'd say the : > browser isn't reflowing the document to accommodate the comment after : > it's display property is set from none to block. that sounds like a : > bug in the browser itself. : : you *do* know how that sounds, right? : : whenever i hear that without a trailing, 'but we'll look into it,' or a 'it's : the best we can do, does it meet our needs?' i tend to get very : wary... : : so, we know it's a bug... : : now, are you saying that you intend to leave it or address it? : : i don't care what the answer is either way, i just wanna know : what's gonna happen... +1 -joshua From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 15:54:10 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 27 15:54:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <200106271953.f5RJrjN12034@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: aardvark, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: aardvark : : > that sounds like a bug in the browser : > itself. : : you *do* know how that sounds, right? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ yeah, i know how it sounds. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : whenever i hear that without a trailing, : 'but we'll look into it,' or a 'it's the : best we can do, does it meet our needs?' : i tend to get very wary... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ well, it's standards compliant code. it's not rendered correctly by a particular browser. whose fault is that? should we conditionalize our code (probably causing it to not be standards compliant) for a browser that hasn't even reached a public release yet? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : now, are you saying that you intend to leave : it or address it? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ well, that's the question. some think i'm not fit to make decisions, so i'm not going to on this one. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : i don't care what the answer is either way, i : just wanna know what's gonna happen... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ my opinion is leave it. it's a pre-release browser that is failing on standards compliant code. when/if it reaches a public release, *then* we re-evaluate. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From bheerssen at visualbridge.tv Wed Jun 27 16:12:15 2001 From: bheerssen at visualbridge.tv (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Wed Jun 27 16:12:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <3B3A4B70.4000804@visualbridge.tv> .jeff wrote: >bruce, > >:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >: From: Bruce Heerssen >: >: 'Scuse me if I butt in here: >:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >sure, no problem. it's good to see you can handle the heat in the kitchen. >*grin* > Heh, is it hot in here? I hadn't noticed ;) OK, you've just about sold me. I take it that the comments are meant to be displayed only if the user has not read them, which is determined by either a cookie or stored prefs. That's pretty good when the comments get really long, as they sometimes do. But I still don't think there's anything inherently wrong with having to scroll a little. Hell, you usually have to scroll just to get to the comments in the first place. Are you sure that you want to be parsing the user_agent string server-side? Can you really be certain of it's accuracy, that you've accounted for all the variations in format? I'm not saying don't use it, just use it carefully. And as for the mozilla bug, it might be worth checking the stats on that one. I would suspect usage of Mozilla is higher for evolt than for most other sites. But maybe not, mozilla is supposed to release the 1.0 version sometime relatively soon, so that bug may well dissappear. Just trying to cover all the bases... Bruce From elfur at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 16:28:51 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Wed Jun 27 16:28:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <071c01c0ff4f$81ba66b0$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: ".jeff" | well, it's standards compliant code. it's not rendered correctly by a | particular browser. whose fault is that? should we conditionalize our code | (probably causing it to not be standards compliant) for a browser that | hasn't even reached a public release yet? ok, hold on here jeff, that's not how we're supposed to be addressing things ... yes we follow standards, but yes we do hack the code to make sure that *everyone* sees everything right ... we don't leave things out there that we know are returning problems - beta product or what have you. | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | : now, are you saying that you intend to leave | : it or address it? | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | well, that's the question. | | some think i'm not fit to make decisions, so i'm not going to on this one. ease up here, it's hard to face opposition, but this is not neccesary. of course you are just as fit as anyone to make decisions - but the main thing is that neither you nor me can force our opinions upon others, and it seems that we've got to accept being the minority here. | my opinion is leave it. it's a pre-release browser that is failing on | standards compliant code. when/if it reaches a public release, *then* we | re-evaluate. now again, leaving a bug, that we know makes problems for others, that's just something we don't do, and won't do here ... as you stated jeff, the majority of web users use win/ie combination ... and i do agree with you that the majority of web users would benefit from this ... others however disagree, and there are more of them disagreeing than of us approving ... so we'll just have to take that one back to it's hut and either figure out a way to improve the feature or nix it all together. My suggestion is therefore, that we drop the discussion of this feature - now - that we remove the changes already made, since the majority isn't approving it - but - that we keep on evaluating this possibility and figuring out if we can or want to implant some sort of a collapsing/expanding thing at all. calling for a "formal" vote, preferably without further discussion voting whether to remove or leave the new win/ie feature elfur: remove - but keep evaluating it. thanks *the diplomatic one* From michele at wordpro.on.ca Wed Jun 27 16:39:01 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Wed Jun 27 16:39:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <071c01c0ff4f$81ba66b0$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: <00ac01c0ff51$2228b1a0$71e9a1d1@mef> +1 I think Elfur's summed it up nicely. Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elfur Logadottir" | | My suggestion is therefore, that we drop the discussion of this feature - | now - that we remove the changes already made, since the majority isn't | approving it - but - that we keep on evaluating this possibility and | figuring out if we can or want to implant some sort of a | collapsing/expanding thing at all. From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 16:58:56 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 27 16:58:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B39F8F7.4020202@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Daniel J. Cody : : : > ah, careful what you say kemosabe. : > : > several have already listed css as an example. : : see last post to iSac for that. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ right, lemme copy-n-paste here for continuity: "some others have brought up this point, and the big thing thats being overlooked is the fact that when I come into evolt.org with NS3 I see everything that ie5.5 sees, sans colors. There is no loss of functionality or content." is that really true? let's say we implement the style changer. i'd say that's a pretty serious departure from your statement above. i think we need to all come to an agreement on what is acceptable support for certain browser/os combinations. without that, we're going to continue to run up against this argument -- with no solution in sight. so, using nn3 (all platforms) as an example, i'd say that as long as the content is accessible and usable that is satisfactory. we're not concerned with the colors the browser displays the content in (provided it's not white on white or black on black, etc.). :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : dude, don't fucking hang flame bait out like that.. : you *know* that i would have said the same thing if : you developed it for Opera only. and believe it or : not, its got nothing to do with you. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i didn't say it as flamebait -- although that was the perception. from the way you worded your complaint it sounded like a problem with the fact that it was currently a ms product only feature. i never thought it had anything to do with me at all. you're publicly very pro-linux and anti-ms. i was simply pointing out that it felt like part of your complaint was in that. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > ah, so there goes dhtml in any fashion. hell, : > even javascript is completely : : [snipageofwahwah] : : dont throw a tantrum. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ instead of just snipping it and dismissing my points as a tantrum, why don't you take a look at them and address them? i'm not sure i know anymore what's acceptable and what's not? maybe it needs to be broken out. if dhtml is out cause it won't work in nn3, then i need to know. if javascript is out cause it won't work in lynx, then i need to know that too. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > am i considering adding my richtext editor as : > an optional tool for : : [snipage of teen-like rebellion] :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ sorry you see more valid points (maybe poorly presented) as a rebellion. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : interesting that you're apparently the one and only : stop for desecions here. i'll save usefull comments : till you've calmed :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i never said i'm the one that makes the decisions around here. what i *am* trying to say is that it feels like everyone is trying to tell me that i'm not fit to make any at all. i made a ton of the decisions that went into the development of v2.0 of thesite. the product seems to work fine (with a few exceptions), so i must have done ok with those decisions. this notion that everyone has to agree on something in order for it to be a good idea and implement is utopian bullshit. you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of them all the time. we have to be able to reach some sort of majority without all this heated debate. i, for one, don't have the time to back up every little action. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : its a different issue only in that it happened a couple : months ago. it has been brought up numerous times here(i : believe) and on admin. you just choose not to respond, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ not numerous times. there was one small thread about it and it died. i chose to not respond because i didn't have the time and the end consensus was that it was annoying but manageable since it was only the admins that saw it. that doesn't mean i'm not trying to formalize some way of fixing it. time in an issue. heck, the time i'm spending in defense of an idea could be spent on that, but obviously everyone is quite adamant about disliking this feature to the point of affecting other work on thesite. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : like you've choosen not to respond to some of my : questions in this thread.. *shrug* :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ and you've not done the same with some of mine? maybe some of them haven't been answered yet cause i haven't had the time to respond to everything in this thread and defend an idea (that doesn't even happen to be mine, but would be useful). :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : you found the time to jump in with it to begin : with, as well as this latest feature.. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ and? what's your point? again ... am i on the clock when i take time for evolt and expected to answer to someone else's higher call of priority? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > when someone here at evolt.org is signing my : > f*cking checks *then* they can tell me how to : > work, what to do, etc. until then, let's keep : > in mind that we're all busting our ass, on our : > own time/dime, and do this cause it's supposed : > to be fun. when i'm getting reamed for jumping : > on an idea that i think would be neat (when i : > don't really have the time to be doing it anyway), : > that doesn't make me wanna be so quick to help : > out in the future. dig? : : hey, reminder: you're not the only one doing work. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i didn't say i was -- notice the bit above "we're all busting our ass, on our own time/dime". :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : don't get snippy when others that do just as much as : you get upset when they see zero input on something : they're working on get changed. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ someone else was working on the display of comments? or, are you referring to getting zero input on the project you're working on? if none of the above, then what are you talking about? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : yes, we're all busting our ass blah blah. it is fun : except when you come through like a fucking mac truck : with a fuck-everyone else attitude. for me at least, : i can't speak for anyone else. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ huh? you make it sound like this was all my idea? it'd be a fuck-everyone else attitude if i implemented something that broke our foundational accessibility/usability/functionality. that's not the case here. somebody else came up with the idea and i thought it was a good idea too so tried to build a prototype to work from. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : you're only getting 'reamed' because this has happened : before(lack of input, heads up, anything in the way of : what is going on) :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ maybe because there's something flawed in our "gotta convince a couple of people first" sort of attitude in our process? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : i don't know what to tell ya, except that there *are* : rules here even if they're unspoken. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ unspoken rules are not rules -- they are personal opinion on how things should be done. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : #1 rule is noone just goes off and does shit because : we all work together. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i thought rule #1 is you don't build it on the live site when we have a test site. i thought that the test site was for implementing ideas like i helped with on this. see the problem with unspoken rules? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : its your choice to help out and be part of that : group, and we all appreciate that. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i'm getting the feeling it's only appreciated when i take the time to hash it out and get *everyone's* opinion first. unfortunately, i rarely have the time for that. i wouldn't even be involved in this time-wasting conversation if i didn't feel that i was being attacked personally. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : don't threaten to take your ball and walk away : like that either.. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ it's not a threat. if this ceases to be fun that's where i draw the line. this isn't something i *have* to do. it's something i do because i want to. life is far too short to f*ck around with things that aren't fun. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : its your choice what you spend your time : on. while you spend it here, i'd expect : for you - and anyone else - to play by the : rules :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ like i said -- rules that aren't written down are not rules. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : My statement against platform specific *features* doesn't : just go for this either.. I just don't think its worth all : this chatter, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ so why bother? i sure as hell would have preferred to not get the public lambasting for the idea/implementation/whatever. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : and still waiting for an answer to: : http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-June/001901.html :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ answered. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 17:23:36 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 27 17:23:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <00a101c0ff3e$503b9070$7303020a@hg2p201> Message-ID: matt, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Warden, Matt : : No. I'm pretty sure we all understand this thing. : It collapses automagically when the recordcount of : comments is greater than (or equal to?) 15 and the : client viewing the page is either IE5 or NN6. All : other times it's expanded by default, but for some : reason can be collapsed manually. The state of : collapse/expand is not stored and all comments are : downloaded no matter what. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ well put. i took it from other people's comments in this thread that they did not fully understand what was being discussed. thank you for summing it up nicely. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : So, we're worried about sending extra bytes of : code when they're not needed, but not worried : about sending extra bytes of comments when the : user isn't going to read them anyways? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ who said they aren't going to read them? the toggle isn't so they're not read -- at least not to me. the toggle is so you don't have so much in your face when you first encounter the comments section. you get a listing of the titles of the comments and then can choose to expand all and read them all or just expand those with titles that interest you. taking that line of reasoning, it wouldn't make much sense to not send the comments down the pipe as that would drastically increase the amount of bandwidth necessary to view the site (as well as server load and time to view the comments). :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > that sounds like a bug in the browser itself. : : So, you're not worried about it? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ no, should i worry myself with a bug in a beta browser? beta browsers are beta for a reason -- cause they've still got bugs they're working on and they're not f*cking ready for public release. if it was a public release of a browser then i might be more open to considering it. even then it'd have to represent a portion of the audience -- not just "some" browser out there that someone knows has a bug, but nobody uses. there are cases where i simply won't develop for the browser beyond basic html and javascript because it's too completely broken -- nn4, for example. there will always be beta browsers out there -- even ones with bugs that affect things we're working on, have already implemented, or will implement in the future. does that mean we shouldn't develop something cause it blows up in a beta? i don't think so. does that mean we should spend extra time altering the code (and possibly penalizing public release browsers) to get it to work in the beta and then come back after it's been released and that bug no longer exists and remove it? or just leave it in place and have less than optimal code because of "there was this one day that this one browser didn't like this code so hacked a solution and haven't bothered to go back and remove it now that it no longer applies" syndrome? or am i just completely crazy for not wanting to waste my time on something like this? .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 17:34:01 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 27 17:34:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B3A4B70.4000804@visualbridge.tv> Message-ID: bruce, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Bruce Heerssen : : Heh, is it hot in here? I hadn't noticed ;) :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i don't mind -- i'm getting an ice tan out of it. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : OK, you've just about sold me. I take it that : the comments are meant to be displayed only if : the user has not read them, which is determined : by either a cookie or stored prefs. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ wasn't thinking of doing it based on whether or not they've read the comments -- that'd require alot more complexity like tracking views of comments, etc. while nice, i'm not sure that would be worth the effort necessary to accomplish that. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : Are you sure that you want to be parsing the : user_agent string server-side? Can you really : be certain of it's accuracy, that you've accounted : for all the variations in format? I'm not saying : don't use it, just use it carefully. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ agreed. originally it was just in there while i got it working win/ie5+ cause that's what i have handy. i've since altered it slightly so it allows ie5+ and anything with gecko in the ua. since the code is fairly well bombproof now though i think we could probably drop the server-side detection with one icky side-effect -- the expand/collapse links would be visible (but not usable) to everyone. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : And as for the mozilla bug, it might be worth : checking the stats on that one. I would suspect : usage of Mozilla is higher for evolt than for : most other sites. But maybe not, [...] :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ yes, i'm sure we do, but ... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : [...] mozilla is supposed to release the 1.0 : version sometime relatively soon, so that bug : may well dissappear. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ that's exactly why i don't want to put any energy into it. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Wed Jun 27 18:13:16 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Wed Jun 27 18:13:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug Report] FAQ Category and Artilce Link Message-ID: <010501c0ff5e$4c06d9e0$71e9a1d1@mef> Hey folks... Damn FAQ category yet again .. now this one is an odd one. Duplicated on teo, as the article in question on weo has been updated so its not throwing an error. Prob exists for Admin and all other priv levels. If a Key_Phrase has NOT been entered for an FAQ article, then once the article is approved, its displaying in the FAQ category with a link of http://index.html. See teo, article entitled "a test" to see the error. No ideas, suggestions .. or nonsense to dispel.. ;) Michele From amanda at gawow.com Wed Jun 27 18:13:51 2001 From: amanda at gawow.com (A. Erickson) Date: Wed Jun 27 18:13:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] another bug // amanda In-Reply-To: <3B38EB97.4070400@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: Go to a.e.o. Click on voting. I get the diagnostic error. Logout. Log in again and I can get in to voting. However, my cookie (presumably) lets me in from the last session but won't give me access to voting until I log out and then in. - amanda From elfur at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 18:15:21 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Wed Jun 27 18:15:21 2001 Subject: Jeff, Dan et al. calm down, go to your rooms and smile :) (was: Re: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org) References: Message-ID: <083401c0ff5e$621b0300$40aefea9@DWARFS> Please don't take this thread any further ... read my last mail, send a +1 or -1 with maximum one line as comment and let's leave it at that. but before i quit - let's all remember than when we get heated up, we aren't attacking the person - none of us are - most of the time we are just disapproving of the action. it's not personal Jeff we all love you :) *mom* ----- Original Message ----- From: ".jeff" | djc, | From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 27 18:19:06 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 27 18:19:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <3B3A67CB.5010402@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > right, lemme copy-n-paste here for continuity: > > "some others have brought up this point, and > the big thing thats being overlooked is the > fact that when I come into evolt.org with > NS3 I see everything that ie5.5 sees, sans > colors. > > There is no loss of functionality or content." > > is that really true? > > let's say we implement the style changer. i'd say that's a pretty serious > departure from your statement above. which stylechanger? why would someone be using a stylechanger in ns3? > i didn't say it as flamebait -- although that was the perception. from the > way you worded your complaint it sounded like a problem with the fact that > it was currently a ms product only feature. i never thought it had anything > to do with me at all. you're publicly very pro-linux and anti-ms. i was > simply pointing out that it felt like part of your complaint was in that. my complaint wasn't worded that way, although that was your perception. being pro-linux or anti-ms has never been an issue, so I'm not sure where thats coming from > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : > ah, so there goes dhtml in any fashion. hell, > : > even javascript is completely > : > : [snipageofwahwah] > : > : dont throw a tantrum. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > instead of just snipping it and dismissing my points as a tantrum, why don't > you take a look at them and address them? i'm not sure i know anymore my fault. how do I address "shit, that'd make html v4 a waste as well. while we're at it, let's throw out images too" ? with counter-sarcasm? > what's acceptable and what's not? maybe it needs to be broken out. if > dhtml is out cause it won't work in nn3, then i need to know. if javascript > is out cause it won't work in lynx, then i need to know that too. ok > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : > am i considering adding my richtext editor as > : > an optional tool for > : > : [snipage of teen-like rebellion] > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > sorry you see more valid points (maybe poorly presented) as a rebellion. when i see "am i considering adding my richtext editor as an optional tool for submitting articles. you better f*cking believe it." and go on to bash mozilla/ns/scripting/whatever, it does come off as rebelious jeff. and i didnt, and still dont see, any valid points in there.. just frustration > trying to say is that it feels like everyone is trying to tell me that i'm > not fit to make any at all. i made a ton of the decisions that went into > the development of v2.0 of thesite. the product seems to work fine (with a > few exceptions), so i must have done ok with those decisions. sorry it feels that way.. i dont think anyone has said or implied that you're not fit to make decisions. i realize that you did make the majority of coding for v2, as do we all. the difference between that and this is we had a plan of what features we were adding and we had eachother(me, you, rudy) there to bounce ideas off. you didn't just go ramming whatever you wanted into that version, and thats the difference between then and now > this notion that everyone has to agree on something in order for it to be a > good idea and implement is utopian bullshit. you can please some of the > people some of the time, but you can't please all of them all the time. we > have to be able to reach some sort of majority without all this heated > debate. i, for one, don't have the time to back up every little action. what if everyone here agrees that its not a good idea except you? is it still utopian bullshit because you're one who thinks it is a good idea? we're not trying to please everyone either and we do go as a majority. > not numerous times. there was one small thread about it and it died. i > chose to not respond because i didn't have the time and the end consensus > was that it was annoying but manageable since it was only the admins that > saw it. that doesn't mean i'm not trying to formalize some way of fixing > it. time in an issue. heck, the time i'm spending in defense of an idea > could be spent on that, but obviously everyone is quite adamant about > disliking this feature to the point of affecting other work on thesite. we could all be spending our time doing something better, sure. as for this affecting other work, wtf? its not like you said, "Ok, well as soon as I write this new feature up and implement it and defend it i'm going to finish working on that select box" you choose to use your time to do this latest feature, and its not anyones fault here if we feel the need to question said latest feature. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : like you've choosen not to respond to some of my > : questions in this thread.. *shrug* > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > and you've not done the same with some of mine? maybe some of them haven't > been answered yet cause i haven't had the time to respond to everything in > this thread and defend an idea (that doesn't even happen to be mine, but > would be useful). thanks for responding to that particular question > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : you found the time to jump in with it to begin > : with, as well as this latest feature.. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > and? what's your point? > > again ... am i on the clock when i take time for evolt and expected to > answer to someone else's higher call of priority? who said you're on a clock? my point was that you were complaining about not having time to finish up other things, yet you had the time do jump in and write this latest thing. how you manage your time is your choice, i was just pointing out that you're contradicting yourself.. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : don't get snippy when others that do just as much as > : you get upset when they see zero input on something > : they're working on get changed. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > someone else was working on the display of comments? > > or, are you referring to getting zero input on the project you're working > on? > > if none of the above, then what are you talking about? let me clarify for you; other people on this list(and not on this list) do just as much work as you on evolt. Don't be suprised when they get upset if you make changes without their input on something(evolt) that they spend as much time more/less than you. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : yes, we're all busting our ass blah blah. it is fun > : except when you come through like a fucking mac truck > : with a fuck-everyone else attitude. for me at least, > : i can't speak for anyone else. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > huh? you make it sound like this was all my idea? it'd be a fuck-everyone > else attitude if i implemented something that broke our foundational > accessibility/usability/functionality. that's not the case here. somebody > else came up with the idea and i thought it was a good idea too so tried to > build a prototype to work from. > > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : you're only getting 'reamed' because this has happened > : before(lack of input, heads up, anything in the way of > : what is going on) > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > maybe because there's something flawed in our "gotta convince a couple of > people first" sort of attitude in our process? so you'd say the 'get no input from other people first, just do it' is a better attitude? cus thats wrong. i'm not saying our process is without flaws, but i hardly see letting other people know wtf is going on before you put it on our website as a *bad* idea. > i thought rule #1 is you don't build it on the live site when we have a test > site. i thought that the test site was for implementing ideas like i helped > with on this. see the problem with unspoken rules? cute > i'm getting the feeling it's only appreciated when i take the time to hash > it out and get *everyone's* opinion first. unfortunately, i rarely have the > time for that. i wouldn't even be involved in this time-wasting > conversation if i didn't feel that i was being attacked personally. no one is making you get 'everyones' opinion first and you know it. what i'm saying is, 'hey, anyone else besides me and isac think this is a good idea? if so, i'll throw some shit up on t.e.o unless people think its a bad idea' doesn't take a lot of time i'm not sure why you think you're being attacked personally, but sorry you feel that way > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : don't threaten to take your ball and walk away > : like that either.. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > it's not a threat. if this ceases to be fun that's where i draw the line. > this isn't something i *have* to do. it's something i do because i want to. > life is far too short to f*ck around with things that aren't fun. no ones saying its something you *have* to do, and that goes for anyone else too, and everyone already knows that. we all do it because we want to, and that goes for everyone else too, and everyone knows that. i'm sorry if you aren't having fun right now, neither am i. but you've got to respect everyone else here and all the work they do. its your choice. > like i said -- rules that aren't written down are not rules. so what rules should we have? thoughts? > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : My statement against platform specific *features* doesn't > : just go for this either.. I just don't think its worth all > : this chatter, > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > so why bother? i sure as hell would have preferred to not get the public > lambasting for the idea/implementation/whatever. the only lambasting you got woulda been from me, and i didnt mean it that way. i'm trying to hold out the olive branch here instead of you and i trading endless replies to eachothers posts. i know that neither of us is going to back down from our opinions, and thats good. i just want to make sure these things don't happen in the future, cus I know neither of us like it and would rather be doing cool shit like having sex and drinking. :) so lets work something out i guess. i can understand where you're coming from totally. and i hope you understand where I'm coming from too. and everyone else.. ttyl .djc. From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 18:24:36 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 27 18:24:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug Report] FAQ Category and Artilce Link In-Reply-To: <010501c0ff5e$4c06d9e0$71e9a1d1@mef> Message-ID: michele, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Michele Foster : : Damn FAQ category yet again .. now this one : is an odd one. Duplicated on teo, as the : article in question on weo has been updated : so its not throwing an error. Prob exists : for Admin and all other priv levels. : : If a Key_Phrase has NOT been entered for an : FAQ article, then once the article is approved, : its displaying in the FAQ category with a : link of http://index.html. See teo, article : entitled "a test" to see the error. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ not a bug -- simply an error in understanding of requirements for faq category. all articles in the faq category must have a key_phrase. enough info? .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From elfur at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 18:37:01 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Wed Jun 27 18:37:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug Report] FAQ Category and Artilce Link References: Message-ID: <086801c0ff61$67fc9150$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: ".jeff" | michele, | | not a bug -- simply an error in understanding of requirements for faq | category. all articles in the faq category must have a key_phrase. ok, so there's a difference in how the faq cat. is handled from all the rest ... ? *the curious one* From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 18:39:11 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 27 18:39:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <071c01c0ff4f$81ba66b0$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: elfur, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Elfur Logadottir : : ok, hold on here jeff, that's not how we're : supposed to be addressing things ... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ oh really? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : yes we follow standards, but yes we do hack : the code to make sure that *everyone* sees : everything right ... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ provided it's a critical element in our foundational accessibility/usability. however, if it's not a mission critical, then no, it should not be hacked. an example is setting up the css so nn3 doesn't show black text on a black background -- but that doesn't take us away from standards in order to implement. that's mission critical to our foundational accessibility/usability requirements. however, putting in font tags so nn3 sees something other than times new roman is not critical to those requirements. providing server-side validation of data is critical for those browsers that don't support javascript and to protect ourselves from someone copying our forms onto our own machine and inserting garbage data into our system. however, javascript can (should?) be added to all forms to prevent unnecessary trips to the server just to remind them a particular field is left blank. this is an example of a critical requirement being enhanced (and not in anyway hampered) for those with the capability. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : we don't leave things out there that we know : are returning problems - beta product or what : have you. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ that goes without saying and has no bearing on this thread :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : | my opinion is leave it. it's a pre-release browser : | that is failing on standards compliant code. when/if : | it reaches a public release, *then* we re-evaluate. : : now again, leaving a bug, that we know makes problems : for others, that's just something we don't do, and : won't do here ... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ what part of bug in a beta browser are people not understanding? anybody that includes beta browsers in their test bed for real-world site testing is crazy. beta browsers may be broken. they may have features promised, but not implemented yet. anybody that uses a beta browser and expects sites to cater to them (and consequently penalize working public release browsers) is asking too much. when you use a beta you use it knowing that it probably has problems. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : as you stated jeff, the majority of web users use : win/ie combination ... and i do agree with you that : the majority of web users would benefit from this :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ did you miss the part where i said that it now works on mac/ie5 and nn6? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : ... others however disagree, and there are more of : them disagreeing than of us approving ... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ are there? or is that those disagreeing are just more vocal and those agreeing are choosing to stay out of the way for fear of getting chewed up and spit out? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : so we'll just have to take that one back to it's : hut and either figure out a way to improve the : feature or nix it all together. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ whatever :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : calling for a "formal" vote, preferably without : further discussion voting whether to remove or : leave the new win/ie feature :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ pass on the vote -- i think discussion is what will determine whether or not to keep it. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 18:42:06 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 27 18:42:06 2001 Subject: Jeff, Dan et al. calm down, go to your rooms and smile :) (was: Re: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org) In-Reply-To: <083401c0ff5e$621b0300$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: elfur, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Elfur Logadottir : : Please don't take this thread any further ... :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ if you don't want it to continue then don't participate, but don't ask me to not continue. i think there's still some discussion necessary. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : but before i quit - let's all remember than : when we get heated up, we aren't attacking : the person - none of us are - most of the : time we are just disapproving of the action. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i sure hope so. at times it sure doesn't feel that way. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : it's not personal Jeff we all love you :) :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ uh huh, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 18:45:21 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 27 18:45:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug Report] FAQ Category and Artilce Link In-Reply-To: <086801c0ff61$67fc9150$40aefea9@DWARFS> Message-ID: elfur, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Elfur Logadottir : : | not a bug -- simply an error in understanding : | of requirements for faq category. all articles : | in the faq category must have a key_phrase. : : ok, so there's a difference in how the faq cat. : is handled from all the rest ... ? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ yes -- in an effort to make that section appear more as static content and less like a repurposing of the category/article displays. other questions? .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Wed Jun 27 18:49:31 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Wed Jun 27 18:49:31 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug Report] FAQ Category and Artilce Link References: Message-ID: <011e01c0ff63$5dc34f60$71e9a1d1@mef> Jeff.... Ok .. got it .. I musta missed that somewhere along the lines .. not like we've had any FAQ's without key phrases (until now) anyway .. LOL Any other cats affected like this? Would it be somewhat Easy (?) to add form validation in the submit article form to trigger this, like we have for the other fields when empty? Michele ----- Original Message ----- From: ".jeff" | | not a bug -- simply an error in understanding of requirements for faq | category. all articles in the faq category must have a key_phrase. | From elfur at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 18:50:36 2001 From: elfur at members.evolt.org (Elfur Logadottir) Date: Wed Jun 27 18:50:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug Report] FAQ Category and Artilce Link References: Message-ID: <087801c0ff63$4ed71ea0$40aefea9@DWARFS> From: ".jeff" | elfur, | | yes -- in an effort to make that section appear more as static content and | less like a repurposing of the category/article displays. ah, ok, my bad then thanks *mom* From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Wed Jun 27 19:43:41 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Wed Jun 27 19:43:41 2001 Subject: IE5 features vs. non ( was : RE: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org) References: Message-ID: <008b01c0ff6b$9de6b520$afa11b18@cinci.rr.com> > From: ".jeff" > Subject: RE: IE5 features vs. non ( was : RE: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org) > > matt, Ok, I'm being unclear and totally fux0ring my terminology in some places. Let me try to clarify: (1) The fux0ring: The preferences would be stored in a session variable (as opposed to a cookie as I originally said (but didn't mean)) (2) The preference would be a boolean value determining whether comments would be displayed on an article by default. showComments=false: only a "Comments" header is shown with a "Show comments" link that refreshes the page and displays the comments for that article, but doesn't alter the session value. showComments=true: default: current article view (3) I don't like the per-comment storage becuase each comment id would have to have a show/hide value (unless there's something I'm not thinking of) (4) the method i'm suggesting would surpress the inclusion of comments in the response, which equals smaller file size. (5) The reasoning behind my idea has NOTHING to do with screen length or whatever, but rather user preference. If a user knows he or she never reads comments, he or she shoudln't have to download them. I know i rarely read comments and I would have them turned off. Remember, I can click "show comments" on any article whose comments I'd like to view. However, to address Elfur's concerns, the comments are not one click away by default. The default is to show comments. (6) I still don't see the benefit of the dhtml stuff that's currently there. (7) I think hiding individual comments gains very little and would be a whole pain in the arse (now I see what you're talking about with the extra coding, mccreath) (8) We're really talking about two different things here with two different objectives (and that's the point.. i don't agree with the objective of the current addition and I offered an addition with a related objective). (9) I originally thought this thread was on admin becuase I don't have any rules set up in this client and I didn't notice the subject. So, if I was a little harsh-sounding, it's because I thought I was talking only to people who know I don't really mean to sound like an asshole. ;-) I think that's clearer. I figured it would be easier to clarify myself before addressing anyone's specific concerns. Thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From r937 at interlog.com Wed Jun 27 20:25:22 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Wed Jun 27 20:25:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org Message-ID: <01c0ff70$39fa5120$2448149a@rudy> > we had a plan of what features we were adding and we had > eachother (me, you, rudy) there to bounce ideas off. huh? [ lifts head out of punchbowl ] somebody called me? (to be fair, i got that punchbowl line from... [drumroll]... john dowdell) methinks we need the, um, job scheduling tool (can't bring myself to call it by that other name -- there's just too much enmity associated with that other name, and i do so want to like this new tool) jeff, you got some great ideas, no question, but your timing of new features is a bit off i don't even know where to start looking for this latest one, i just ignored it because i don't gots ie5 >> like i said -- rules that aren't written down are not rules. > >so what rules should we have? thoughts? all our rules are written up in the archives somewhere [ducks] > i just want to make sure these things don't happen in the future, > cus I know neither of us like it and would rather be doing cool shit > like having sex and drinking. :) EEEWWWWWWW not with each other, i hope rudy was gonna use the "go to your rooms" line but i see it's already been taken From isaac at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 21:04:56 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Wed Jun 27 21:04:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B3A67CB.5010402@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: re jeff vs dan - how about a trade-off? dan's allowed to title admin.evolt.org "thewife" (and piss off rudy and erika amongst others) if jeff is allowed to implement a few IE-only features? ;) > > let's say we implement the style changer. i'd say that's a > pretty serious > > departure from your statement above. > > which stylechanger? why would someone be using a stylechanger in ns3? dan, your original comment was: "some others have brought up this point, and the big thing thats being overlooked is the fact that when I come into evolt.org with NS3 I see everything that ie5.5 sees, sans colors. There is no loss of functionality or content." the stylechanger is an enhancement for those browsers which support css, right? you have also previously said that if something is not available to everyone, we're not doing it. jeff was just trying to point out that implementing selective enhancements does not stop ANYONE from fulfilling the basic goals of our site: reading content. if we were to not have any enhancements whatsoever, we'd have to drop css, cookies, javascript, images, etc. many people have suggested that they wouldn't find this feature useful. i would, and i think jeff may also. of the 1000's on thelist, i'm sure there are a few more. also, i have stated how i would use it in its current implementation. (many people appear to have not read that post.) all of that aside, if the use that the minority derive from it does not outweigh the negative issues (extra code and on-screen distractions) experienced by the majority, then we can the feature. i don't have a problem with that. HOWEVER, i do have a problem with opposition to enhancements if they do provide advantages to prospective users without disadvantaging others. a prime example is the rich-text editor. if users can choose to submit articles using that, and those who can't use it can still use the textarea, where's the problem? if we were only accepting articles sent via the rich-text editor, or we were giving priorities to those, there'd be a problem, but that isn't an issue. i'm not yet ready to can any tinkering with the comments. when i get an email alert saying that martin or paul have commented on alan's 36ish comment article, i go to the article (the #comments anchor doesn't appear to work in this case) and have to scroll through every single one of those (often lengthy) comments. at 800x600, i have to hit pagedown 39 fucking times. or i have to blindly scroll looking for the position. (even at 2570x1024, i have to pagedown 11-12 times). what if those comments already read (check time of last visit versus timestamp of comment addition) were collapsed by default? or if there was more of a marker of where in the list of comments i was up to last time i visited? the assumption in using the time of lastvisit is that i viewed that article on my last visit, which might not be the case. isaac From djc at starkmedia.com Wed Jun 27 22:37:37 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Jun 27 22:37:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <3B3AA596.7070000@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > elfur, > > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > : From: Elfur Logadottir > : > : ok, hold on here jeff, that's not how we're > : supposed to be addressing things ... > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > oh really? then what, jeff, is your opinion on how we should be addressing things? > provided it's a critical element in our foundational > accessibility/usability. however, if it's not a mission critical, then no, > it should not be hacked. so by that reasoning, this newest feature is a 'critcal element' of our foundation? > not implemented yet. anybody that uses a beta browser and expects sites to > cater to them (and consequently penalize working public release browsers) is > asking too much. when you use a beta you use it knowing that it probably > has problems. just curious, but what *exactly* is wrong with mozilla 0.9.1 ? what parts of your standards compliant script is it choking on? tell me and i'll forward these problems right to 2 guys i know at mozilla that will let you know jeff is this is something to worry about or to forget. i'm interested > are there? or is that those disagreeing are just more vocal and those > agreeing are choosing to stay out of the way for fear of getting chewed up > and spit out? i've got you, isac and elfur all with vocal opions for what you're doing and i've *hardly* 'chewed'and/or'spit' out. if anyone else wants to speak up, i very much encourge it and i've *never* done anything to suggest otherwise. > : so we'll just have to take that one back to it's > : hut and either figure out a way to improve the > : feature or nix it all together. > :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > whatever alright!!!(aard is going to cringe at the triple !'s) break on through man .djc. From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Jun 27 23:17:42 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Jun 27 23:17:42 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B3AA596.7070000@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Daniel J. Cody : : > oh really? : : then what, jeff, is your opinion on how : we should be addressing things? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ sort of taken out of context so lemme quote my comments in my original response to put it in perspective. "[...] well, it's standards compliant code. it's not rendered correctly by a particular browser. whose fault is that? should we conditionalize our code (probably causing it to not be standards compliant) for a browser that hasn't even reached a public release yet?" to which elfur responded: "that's not how we're supposed to be addressing things" to which i ask -- why not? isn't part of the goal of our site to be producing code that validates and is standards compliant? if it's not, then let's hack away. however, if that *is* one of our goals, then i ask once again -- who's fault is it that it doesn't work properly? i say it's the fault of the beta browser. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > provided it's a critical element in our foundational : > accessibility/usability. however, if it's not a : > mission critical, then no, it should not be hacked. : : so by that reasoning, this newest feature is a 'critcal : element' of our foundation? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ no, it's a tertiary feature that, when implemented, does not hinder our basic goal -- people can get to the content to read it. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > when you use a beta you use it knowing that it : > probably has problems. : : just curious, but what *exactly* is wrong with mozilla : 0.9.1 ? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ it should be reflowing the document to accommodate the comments when their display property is set from "none" (takes no space within the document flow) to "block" (occupies the full space necessary for the dimensions of the object including borders, padding, and margins. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : is this is something to worry about or to forget. i'm : interested :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ it's certainly something to worry about. altering an object's display is one of the fundamentals of dhtml. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From bheerssen at visualbridge.tv Wed Jun 27 23:51:52 2001 From: bheerssen at visualbridge.tv (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Wed Jun 27 23:51:52 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <3B3AB72B.80709@visualbridge.tv> .jeff wrote: >djc wrote: > > >: >: just curious, but what *exactly* is wrong with mozilla >: 0.9.1 ? >:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >it should be reflowing the document to accommodate the comments when their >display property is set from "none" (takes no space within the document >flow) to "block" (occupies the full space necessary for the dimensions of >the object including borders, padding, and margins. > >:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >: is this is something to worry about or to forget. i'm >: interested >:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >it's certainly something to worry about. altering an object's display is >one of the fundamentals of dhtml. > >.jeff > After a hard reboot, the problem still exists. There doesn't seem to be a bug listed at bugzilla that describes this. I'm still not certain where the problem is, whether it's my installation here or something else. I'm on win2k here at work. I'll check on linux and win98 when I get get home. We'll get to the bottom of this yet. -Bruce From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 28 00:01:08 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Jun 28 00:01:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B3A67CB.5010402@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: djc, :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : From: Daniel J. Cody : : > let's say we implement the style changer. : > i'd say that's a pretty serious departure : > from your statement above. : : which stylechanger? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ the one we've been talking about implementing so users can implement their own schemes for viewing evolt. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : why would someone be using a stylechanger in ns3? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ well, they wouldn't because there would be no benefit of doing so. that goes back to my point though. knowing they won't (can't) use it -- doesn't that mean we're developing something in thesite for only a portion of our audience and not for *everyone*? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > instead of just snipping it and dismissing my : > points as a tantrum, why don't you take a look : > at them and address them? i'm not sure i know : > anymore : : my fault. how do I address "shit, that'd make html : v4 a waste as well. while we're at it, let's throw : out images too" ? with counter-sarcasm? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i agree, i took my example to an extreme. however, it was in an effort to show the extreme of your opinion. we can't do all things for everyone. what we can do is have a base that serves everyone and then build upon that as an enhanced experience for those with the capability. is that sort of approach really so wrong? if it is then why don't we just offer thesite in a text-only format so it's the same for everyone (albeit probably less usable). :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > sorry you see more valid points (maybe poorly : > presented) as a rebellion. : : when i see "am i considering adding my richtext : editor as an optional tool for submitting articles. : you better f*cking believe it." and go on to bash : mozilla/ns/scripting/whatever, it does come off as : rebelious jeff. and i didnt, and still dont see, : any valid points in there.. just frustration :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ look past the frustration. i offered the comment about the scripted editing environment in nn6 to let you know that i wasn't trying to implement win/ie only features. it was to let you know that i am aware of potential solutions for users of other browsers (and possibly platforms) and would be happy to implement them if they were available. i'm frustrated by mozilla's lack of direction with that regard. i'd love to have something like that available in mozilla. i'm also frustrated that i'm being portrayed as such a hardnose one-browser/one-platform developer when that's so far from the truth. dig? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : the difference between that and this is we had a : plan of what features we were adding and we had : eachother(me, you, rudy) there to bounce ideas : off. you didn't just go ramming whatever you : wanted into that version, and thats the difference : between then and now :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ did we have a list of features? yeah, sorta. did all the coding happen when we were around to bounce ideas off of each other? some of it, but not all of it. alot of it got started, but when it came time to finish up, i did it here, by myself and made the decisions without having others to bounce them off of. there are lots of things in thesite that were never part of the proposed featurelist and yet useful and even necessary. the admin bar for example. being able to minimize the sidebar. user searches. comment searches. being able to change the author (while problematic i agree) of an article or publish an article under another user's name. a much improved search interface for articles. the comment block for explaining why an article is being update. the improved article submission process. etc. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : what if everyone here agrees that its not a good : idea except you? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ then so be it, but that's not what i hear. furthermore, the arguments i've heard against it don't warrant not implementing. they only warrant good reason why some of you won't use it. however, if it's included is it going to negatively impact your viewing experience -- highly unlikely. if that's a safe bet, then really what's all the fuss about? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : is it still utopian bullshit because you're one : who thinks it is a good idea? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ no, the utopian bullshit is the notion that everyone is going to agree on something. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : we're not trying to please everyone either and : we do go as a majority. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ yeah i know, but it's always the vocal majority. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : as for this affecting other work, wtf? its not : like you said, "Ok, well as soon as I write this : new feature up and implement it and defend it i'm : going to finish working on that select box" :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ huh? how do you know the select box issue wasn't the next thing i was going to work on? and what's this notion that i thought this idea up all by myself and implemented it without input from others? further, maybe it was naive of me to think that something like this might actually get some positive feedback, but i didn't assume that i'd end up defending it. who knew, eh? i guess i'll keep that in mind next time somebody comes up with what seems like a good idea. "naw, can't help you do that, i'll catch a bunch of shit for implementing it, sorry, hope you understand". :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : you choose to use your time to do this latest : feature, and its not anyones fault here if we : feel the need to question said latest feature. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ fine -- it's on the floor to be questioned. seriously though, those of you against it sure have alot of emotion wrapped in *not* implementing new things. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : thanks for responding to that particular question :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ you're welcome. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > again ... am i on the clock when i take time : > for evolt and expected to answer to someone : > else's higher call of priority? : : who said you're on a clock? my point was that : you were complaining about not having time to : finish up other things, yet you had the time : do jump in and write this latest thing. how you : manage your time is your choice, i was just : pointing out that you're contradicting yourself.. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i think you're completely missing my point, but that's ok. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : let me clarify for you; other people on this list : (and not on this list) do just as much work as you : on evolt. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ thanks for qualifying the time i put in. you're not here -- seeing my comings and goings. how do you know how much time i spend on it. really -- let's not get into nitpicking details about who does more and how often. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : Don't be suprised when they get upset if you make : changes without their input on something(evolt) : that they spend as much time more/less than you. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ am i not entitled to feel the same way? there have been plenty of other things that have been done by others that were never put forward for my input and some of them i don't agree with. live and let live though, eh? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : so you'd say the 'get no input from other people : first, just do it' is a better attitude? cus thats : wrong. i'm not saying our process is without : flaws, but i hardly see letting other people know : wtf is going on before you put it on our website : as a *bad* idea. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ no shit, but i didn't put it on our website. i put it on a testing environment. furthermore, i implemented *someone* else's idea. can you please get off the trip that this was me doing something all by myself without input from others. that's hardly fair. obviously, since i didn't get the input from the right people, there's another unwritten rule that says i gotta run ideas (mine or others if i'm going to implement them) by a *certain set* of people before implementing them. i'd like to know who this certain set of people is so i can make sure to include them in all future discussions to avoid this sort of public reaming again. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > i thought rule #1 is you don't build it on the : > live site when we have a test site. i thought : > that the test site was for implementing ideas : > like i helped with on this. see the problem : > with unspoken rules? : : cute :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ cute? i was trying to be constructive. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : no one is making you get 'everyones' opinion first : and you know it. what i'm saying is, 'hey, anyone : else besides me and isac think this is a good idea? : if so, i'll throw some shit up on t.e.o unless : people think its a bad idea' doesn't take a lot of : time :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ well, just so you know, it wasn't just me and isaac that were involved. michele also had some input too. it's difficult to include other people on the spot like that. i happened to have a small slot of time before going home for the night. if i'd put out the question for input from others *before* working on it, it would have never been implemented, and could have been another one of those good ideas that flushed down the shitter cause nobody has time to build it now, the idea didn't get approved by the right people, or whatever. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : i'm not sure why you think you're being attacked : personally, but sorry you feel that way :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ glad to hear. just so you know, it sure doesn't feel that way. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : i'm sorry if you aren't having fun right : now, neither am i. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ wouldn't think you would be having fun. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : but you've got to respect everyone else here : and all the work they do. its your choice. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ how have i disrespected anyone else here and the work they do? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : > like i said -- rules that aren't written : > down are not rules. : : so what rules should we have? thoughts? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i'd like to know what's in and out as far as development. is dhtml ok? is javascript ok? etc. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : the only lambasting you got woulda been from me, and : i didnt mean it that way. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ good to know. didn't feel that way at the time. i honestly was hoping for a much more positive response to the idea. it sucks when you put some time into something and everyone comes back and tells you how much it sucks. i agree that there are elements of it that can be improved, but is it really as horrible as everyone is making it sound? :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : i'm trying to hold out the olive branch here : instead of you and i trading endless replies : to eachothers posts. i know that neither of us : is going to back down from our opinions, and : thats good. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ you got that right. ;) :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : i just want to make sure these things don't happen : in the future, cus I know neither of us like it : and would rather be doing cool shit like having : sex and drinking. :) :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ sure, drinking with each other, but not the sex part. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : so lets work something out i guess. i can understand : where you're coming from totally. and i hope you : understand where I'm coming from too. and everyone else.. :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ mostly. my frustration comes from thesite no longer really being my baby where i can address issues and add features that others will find useful. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From roselli at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 00:21:55 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Thu Jun 28 00:21:55 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B3AA596.7070000@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3B3A857B.22617.11F840B9@localhost> > From: "Daniel J. Cody" [...] > alright!!!(aard is going to cringe at the triple !'s) ok, now this is getting out of hand... nothing warrants the use of triple exclamation points... anyway... i had two issues with this whole thing: - i don't see what purpose it serves, other than as JS eye-candy... sure, we can do it, but for those who want to read the comments, they'll never use it (or they'll have to expand them all) and for those who don't, they can just not scroll down... for those who pick and choose, they'll often have to expand some just to get context for comments that reference other comments... no, i can't see how it's a feature that the site needs... as it is, it adds more code and requires more CPU cycles, and it's something i'll never use, so i resent having to download it and have my browser crunch it (no matter how small) just to ignore it... yes, it's an old machine, but i think others might feel the same... - i'm not too keen on using JS and such... i'm very much wary of client-side scripting, and always look to a server-side solution... in fact, when the script appeared in the log-in box that removes the sample text on focus when the 2.0 rolled out, my first reaction was 'what the hell? i just had to move my mouse to select for nothing?'... over time, i've found that i don't care, but it in no way speeds *me* up, but for the few characters of code, it's no biggie (if it went away, i wouldn't mind)... it's also not a big deal for my browser to crunch since it's so simple... but to now have DHTML for no hard reason, with so much variance in how it might work and display, and with no specific problems we're trying to solve, it just seems like frivolous code for code's sake... now, i do whole-heartedly support the prototyping approach... build it up to a degree, show it off, get some feedback... i say continue with that, and don't feel bad if an idea doesn't make it to production... btw, i'm already steeling myself for the rich text editor you're talking about... keep in mind i use notepad because it doesn't do code completion or make assumptions about HTML... i'm a client-side scripter's worst nightmare... that and NN2... From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Jun 28 01:10:43 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Jun 28 01:10:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <008c01c0ff98$9961a8c0$c9eda1d1@mef> Folks... Pretty much sitting on the fence on this one .. letting ya'll hash it out. Nice to see such lively communication going back and forth. ;) Such a small feature has resulted in a hell of a lot of emails going back and forth .. ;) Anyway .. to comment on one small portion of what Jeff said.. ----- Original Message ----- From: ".jeff" | | well, just so you know, it wasn't just me and isaac that were involved. | michele also had some input too. Yup.. that I did... and the *creepy* feeling of someone being a million miles away having said the exact same thing that I was saying is still there. Isaac reading my mind .. now *that* was odd. ;) Personally, I think the idea is "neat". My personal browser of choice is IE5.5 .. which works great.. so, yeah, I'm biased. Kudos to Jeff for getting it to work in NS6 and whatever other browsers its now working in. That said, I think a lot of things are "neat" .. that doesn't mean they'll be a good idea for the majority, nor does it mean that they won't. | it's difficult to include other people on the spot like that. No worries on my end. I was awake .. and we were talking about it at the time you were implementing it. i happened to have a small slot of time before going | home for the night. if i'd put out the question for input from others | *before* working on it, it would have never been implemented, and could have | been another one of those good ideas that flushed down the shitter cause | nobody has time to build it now, the idea didn't get approved by the right | people, or whatever. This is very true .. jumping in on an idea and getting it working is nice to see. Despite AT having been up for discussion for at least 6 weeks, it got nixed 2 days after implementation. The point being, often times waiting on input from others doesn't produce the *required* responses. There are a lot of times when an idea needs to be implemented (to a certain point) in order to generate the *required* responses. Meaning that, once something is available for review/consideration, there is always the possibility that the original idea will get nixed in the end. It sucks .. been there, done that. A hard pill to swallow, but we (as a group) have to move on. Anyway, like I said at the beginning .. I'm sitting on the fence .. whatever happens, happens. I am the absolutely *worst* debater in the world, so, best if I don't even try to keep up. Rock on you guys .. Evolt is the best .. elsewise we'd all not be here discussing this. Just think, we could be debating whether we should unsub someone from thelist just because they asked a question .. ;) Michele (flames to theCats please) From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Jun 28 01:23:07 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Jun 28 01:23:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug Report] FAQ Category and Artilce Link References: Message-ID: <009d01c0ff9a$57811e20$c9eda1d1@mef> ----- Original Message ----- From: ".jeff" | elfur, | | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | : From: Elfur Logadottir | : | : ok, so there's a difference in how the faq cat. | : is handled from all the rest ... ? | :~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | yes -- in an effort to make that section appear more as static content and | less like a repurposing of the category/article displays. Damn.. dead on .. now I remember.. Sorry Jeff .. for reporting a "bug" that wasn't a bug .. but a *feature* that I forgot. Adding to memory bank.. "check all FAQ's before they are approved to ensure key_phrase has been used". Sigh.. one day, I swear I'll remember *everything*. Michele From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 28 02:23:33 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Jun 28 02:23:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B3A857B.22617.11F840B9@localhost> Message-ID: > - i don't see what purpose it serves, other than as JS eye-candy... YOU don't see what purpose it serves. i do. i would use the feature. i don't doubt that others might also (especially if we further adapted the idea as i have suggested). whether the minority using it warrants inflicting the extra code on the majority, is a different case. as i have said, i'm happy to miss out on that feature should the majority consider it a disadvantage to them. > sure, we can do it, but for those who want to read the comments, > they'll never use it (or they'll have to expand them all) and for those i want to read the comments. i would use it. have you been reading these threads? > sample text on focus when the 2.0 rolled out, my first reaction was > 'what the hell? i just had to move my mouse to select for i can't believe that you don't ride a horse around instead of drive a car... > nothing?'... over time, i've found that i don't care, but it in no way > speeds *me* up, but for the few characters of code, it's no biggie (if speeds me up. i'm sure it speeds things up for many others. previously: click or click-drag in login box. delete text. enter username. now: click. enter username. assuming you don't use the cookie/remember-me feature, once you've learnt that (hopefully on your second visit), how could that not speed you up? > browser to crunch since it's so simple... but to now have DHTML > for no hard reason, with so much variance in how it might work and > display, and with no specific problems we're trying to solve, it just > seems like frivolous code for code's sake... i outlined the problem on admin (dealing with epic lists of comments), the reason was provided. variance is another issue. the one variation so far discovered appears to be with a beta browser. as much as everyone loves to support little mozilla, should we race to support apparent bugs in other beta browsers (no matter how small?). > now, i do whole-heartedly support the prototyping approach... build > it up to a degree, show it off, get some feedback... i say continue > with that, and don't feel bad if an idea doesn't make it to > production... +1 > btw, i'm already steeling myself for the rich text editor you're talking > about... keep in mind i use notepad because it doesn't do code > completion or make assumptions about HTML... if you don't want to use it, don't use it. it won't be enabled by default. it will be an enhancement for those who want to use it. it was running on the admin side of the www.evolt.org site before the redesign. did you notice it? isaac From john at userfrenzy.com Thu Jun 28 02:40:47 2001 From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar) Date: Thu Jun 28 02:40:47 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of isaac > Sent: 28 June 2001 08:22 > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: RE: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org > > i outlined the problem on admin (dealing with epic lists of comments), the > reason was provided. variance is another issue. the one variation so far > discovered appears to be with a beta browser. as much as everyone loves to > support little mozilla, should we race to support apparent bugs in other > beta browsers (no matter how small?). I'm not letting that one go past unchallenged again (sorry it's you, Isaac, that tripped my switch). Moz 0.91 is the same Gecko which is also inside Netscape 6 beta 1. Between them, they now carry a *lot* of users - for example, I don't know any Linux users who don't use it. Beta it might be, but what browser hasn't been in widespread use before its final release - ever? ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 7209 4117 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 28 03:17:13 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Jun 28 03:17:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Moz 0.91 is the same Gecko which is also inside Netscape 6 > beta 1. Between them, they now carry a *lot* of users - > for example, I don't know any Linux users who don't use it. So, do we test based on number/%age of users? If so, where's the cut-off? Regardless of our vote about inclusion of the expand/collapse feature, if we were to include it, wouldn't we then just make it IE5 only (or whatever browsers will support it) until it did work in mozilla? It appears that the basic expand/collapse feature suggested has been voted out, but there've been no comments to date on whether we need to address which comments have been added since a users last visit. Dan has quoted stats that the vast majority of articles have few comments. If those are actually drawn from the database, can I see stats for articles written in the last 3 months? Also, do we predict that the number of comments per article will grow with time, or decline? (This should take into account changes in article style, and active attempts by the community to encourage participation.) Currently, the number of comments isn't a tremendous issue, but will it become one? For example, do we need threading? Spanning comments over pages if the list grows? Anyway, I'm off for the night. Seeya. (that's enough uppercase for now. bleargh!) i From roselli at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 07:24:24 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Thu Jun 28 07:24:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: References: <3B3A857B.22617.11F840B9@localhost> Message-ID: <3B3AE8D6.24760.137C6A05@localhost> > From: "isaac" > > > - i don't see what purpose it serves, other than as JS eye-candy... > > YOU don't see what purpose it serves. i do. i would use the feature. i > don't doubt that others might also (especially if we further adapted > the idea as i have suggested). i think you're missing the point... i see why some of you want it, but it feels like one of those things where when you sit down with a usability study, you find it takes people longer to do a task than they think it takes... i can't prove that, i can't test it, but given how much work you have to do to get onto the hit area for each comment you might want to see and expand it in order to do a quick scan, as opposed to just plain scrolling, it seems overengineered.. i know i can't change your perspective on that, and i'm not trying to, but i do want you to understand that you are proposing a solution to a 'problem' identified by the two people doing it... i've heard no other complaints that the comments are a problem as they are... > whether the minority using it warrants inflicting the extra code on > the majority, is a different case. as i have said, i'm happy to miss > out on that feature should the majority consider it a disadvantage to > them. and that depends on the amount of code, the potential for errors, etc... personally, i think the +/- looks just plain bad where it is... i'm less concerned about the code and more concerned with the 4 or 5 different hyperlinks with completely different functions in the same 50px area... that's a lot of activity in a compressed space... > > sure, we can do it, but for those who want to read the comments, > > they'll never use it (or they'll have to expand them all) and for > > those > > i want to read the comments. i would use it. have you been reading > these threads? yes, and i think you'll see the people who actually care to read the comments would find the feature useless... what part of the thread do you think i've missed? > > sample text on focus when the 2.0 rolled out, my first reaction was > > 'what the hell? i just had to move my mouse to select for > > i can't believe that you don't ride a horse around instead of drive a > car... i would, but i can't get the horse to tow the car... either way, that was JS inserted to speed people up, and the first few times i used it, it slowed me down... IOW, a very predictable element (an input area with text) behaved in an unpredictable way (it disappeared on focus, instead of allowing me to highlight), with no indication that would happen other than user discovery... you may not understand why that is a bad thing, but that's ok, it's just a different perspective... but *that's* how you go about testing the utility of things in an interface... in this case, the +/- has no preconceivd expectation other than a generic more/less message... that's not the problem... it's the location that is the problem... > > nothing?'... over time, i've found that i don't care, but it in no > > way speeds *me* up, but for the few characters of code, it's no > > biggie (if > > speeds me up. i'm sure it speeds things up for many others. it very well may... > previously: click or click-drag in login box. delete text. enter > username. now: click. enter username. yes, but you need to consider how it worked the first time... if you didn't know it was there, you click-dragged and the text disappeared... that's *bad*.... it behaved in an unexpected way without warning you... users shouldn't have to learn how to use common interface elements if you can leverage previous experience... i didn't think it was too big a deal so i didn't worry about it, but i still think it was problematic (and still is for new users)... i think having a set number of comments result in an all-collapsed state is much worse... it would happen on so few articles that the user wouldn't learn how it works until they get to the right article... yes, they will have seen the +/-, but they won't have seen an all- collapsed state, and it will take them a moment to understand what's going on... > assuming you don't use the cookie/remember-me feature, once you've > learnt that (hopefully on your second visit), how could that not speed > you up? on your second visit... you've just qualified my point... and it doesn't speed me up any more than if there were no text in there at all... hell, the fields are labeled, i find the text frivolous given how it behaves... but that is a completely different issue... > > browser to crunch since it's so simple... but to now have DHTML for > > no hard reason, with so much variance in how it might work and > > display, and with no specific problems we're trying to solve, it > > just seems like frivolous code for code's sake... > > i outlined the problem on admin (dealing with epic lists of comments), > the reason was provided. variance is another issue. the one variation you outlined a problem that *you* perceive as a problem... have we heard complaints from users? from anyone else? is it really a problem? > so far discovered appears to be with a beta browser. as much as > everyone loves to support little mozilla, should we race to support > apparent bugs in other beta browsers (no matter how small?). that's not my concern... the beta browser issue is a non-issue to me... i do think that client-side scripting brings just too much risk, and i think conditionally serving page content goes against how we tried to build this... i always felt we should have write-once run anywhere code, and serving up pages based on browser is exactly the opposite of that... > > now, i do whole-heartedly support the prototyping approach... build > > it up to a degree, show it off, get some feedback... i say continue > > with that, and don't feel bad if an idea doesn't make it to > > production... > > +1 right-o... > > btw, i'm already steeling myself for the rich text editor you're > > talking about... keep in mind i use notepad because it doesn't do > > code completion or make assumptions about HTML... > > if you don't want to use it, don't use it. it won't be enabled by > default. it will be an enhancement for those who want to use it. woo hoo ! > it was running on the admin side of the www.evolt.org site before the > redesign. did you notice it? yep, i hated it... i hope that's not the one we're gonna use (no offense jeff, it's a great tool, but it's not how i work)... From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Thu Jun 28 07:25:24 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Jun 28 07:25:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <008c01c0ff98$9961a8c0$c9eda1d1@mef> Message-ID: <006c01c0ffcd$903d7820$b0a11b18@cinci.rr.com> > From: "Michele Foster" > Subject: Re: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org > ... > This is very true .. jumping in on an idea and getting it working is nice to > see. Despite AT having been up for discussion for at least 6 weeks, it got > nixed 2 days after implementation. The point being, often times waiting on > input from others doesn't produce the *required* responses. And just to point out that Michele and I put a good amount of time into the planning of AT and then Michele put even more time into writing the initial articles. When, after it moved to production (through the normal process), various people said they didn't like it, we pulled it. No biggie. No one argued about it for three days. We pulled it. Took two seconds. Then we moved on. Can't we do the same here? And teo isn't this pre-production loadging dock where everything that shows up on teo ends up in weo. It's a *testing area*. Obviously, some of the shit just ain't gonna make it. This is one of them. Instead of arguing about what's there (since there seems to be a majority who isnt liking the feature), why not discuss what would be a better solution? And if there is really a majority out there who is for this feature but isn't saying anything, then they lose out. That's how shit works. If you don't vote, you can't bitch about who's president. Dan, at one point you were telling people if they wanted to do something with evolt, they should just do it. That's what jeff did. I have no problem with how he implemented this. This came about late at night and only those who were up responded. If they would have waited for responses before whipping up a prototype, this would have taken forever. I'm glad he went ahead and did it. But, now that we see it, we know it isn't something that we'll need. So, we axe it. We shouldnt be reeming jeff for what he's done. He hasn't done anything but build a prototype. if he insists against the majority to move it to production, that's one thing. But all he's done is build a prototype. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From judi at frognet.net Thu Jun 28 10:04:04 2001 From: judi at frognet.net (Judith Taylor) Date: Thu Jun 28 10:04:04 2001 Subject: [thesite] question from the peanut gallery Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010628105741.00a45240@mail.frognet.net> Hey guys, With all this 'talk' of enhancements I have a question. This question concerns the drop-down list of "Choose a category..." Would it be a PITA to make the dropdown go to the category chosen onChange? I have to admit to being a bit lazy and not want to have to click on the "Go" button to change categories... just a thought, ~judi Judith Taylor ICQ: 67460562 Freelance ColdFusion Developer - Athens, OH Friends don't let friends code before coffee. From roselli at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 10:23:53 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Thu Jun 28 10:23:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] question from the peanut gallery In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010628105741.00a45240@mail.frognet.net> Message-ID: <200106281523.f5SFNjN22455@leo.evolt.org> > From: Judith Taylor [...] > This question concerns the drop-down list of "Choose a category..." > > Would it be a PITA to make the dropdown go to the category chosen > onChange? I have to admit to being a bit lazy and not want to have to > click on the "Go" button to change categories... no offense, judith, and i should qualify this by saying that no matter how mean my comments sound, they never are intended to be, but i think that's A Bad Idea(tm)... i can't tell you how many times i've popped that open just to look and accidentally clicked a different section... my web-surfer-ninja training kicks in and i immediately start to go for the 'back' button before i gratefully remember that the page won't reload until *i* tell it to... when i select a category, i often hit tab and then enter, and that fires off the form... i still think it's faster to click, though... i'll reserver my general commentary on my distaste for onChange handlers in select menus for another time... From qajir at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 28 10:44:14 2001 From: qajir at members.evolt.org (Judith Taylor) Date: Thu Jun 28 10:44:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] [Bug Report] a.e.o - Create Jobs Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010628113117.00a63010@mail.frognet.net> Was poking around on a.e.o. and decided that I would 'do something'. So, I tried to create a new job. Poking around, I used the drop-down for Client - first I chose evolt.org - to see what Websites came up in that list...then decided, since I didn't see a listing for t.e.o. that I would try using 'none' for Client. Got an error....specifically a JavaScript error..... Runtime error: Line 71 - 'options.1' is not an object Since I am no where *near* being a JavaScript guru (working on changing that! ;o) I figured I'd let whoever is know that this beast reared it's ugly head.... Win98, IE 5.00.3314.2101 SP2 ~judi Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness which created them. - Albert Einstein From qajir at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 28 11:01:55 2001 From: qajir at members.evolt.org (Judith Taylor) Date: Thu Jun 28 11:01:55 2001 Subject: [thesite] question from the peanut gallery In-Reply-To: <200106281523.f5SFNjN22455@leo.evolt.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010628105741.00a45240@mail.frognet.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010628115348.00a5aec0@mail.frognet.net> No offense taken. :o) That's valid. Usually, what I do in cases of 'mouse-flubs' is to hit 'stop' first, then, if the new page has started loading, I hit 'back'... I find onChange handlers to be 'convenient'... Put it down to a case of personal preference differences. :o) ~judi aardvark put into words: >no offense, judith, and i should qualify this by saying that no matter >how mean my comments sound, they never are intended to be, but >i think that's A Bad Idea(tm)... > >i can't tell you how many times i've popped that open just to look >and accidentally clicked a different section... my web-surfer-ninja >training kicks in and i immediately start to go for the 'back' button >before i gratefully remember that the page won't reload until *i* tell >it to... >[snippage] Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness which created them. - Albert Einstein From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Jun 28 11:22:40 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Jun 28 11:22:40 2001 Subject: [thesite] comment stats References: Message-ID: <3B3B57B6.9060300@starkmedia.com> straight from oracle, between 7/1/00 and 9/30/00 we had 33 approved articles, 1 of which had 10 or more comments, 3% between 10/01/00 and 12/31/00 we had 59 approved articles, 8 of which had 10 or more comments, 13% between 1/1/01 and 3/30/01 we had 49 approved articles, 10 of which had 10 or more comments, 20% between 4/1/01 and 7/1/01 we had 32 approved articles, 4 of which had 10 or more comments, 12.5% we've never encouraged extended participation with comments.. matt haughey hit the nail on the head when describing evolt one time, "some comments on each piece, but discussion is rarely the focus" extended discussion should take place on thelist lemme know if you want any more stats isaac wrote: > It appears that the basic expand/collapse feature suggested has been voted > out, but there've been no comments to date on whether we need to address > which comments have been added since a users last visit. > > Dan has quoted stats that the vast majority of articles have few comments. > If those are actually drawn from the database, can I see stats for articles > written in the last 3 months? > > Also, do we predict that the number of comments per article will grow with > time, or decline? (This should take into account changes in article style, > and active attempts by the community to encourage participation.) From bheerssen at visualbridge.tv Thu Jun 28 12:26:40 2001 From: bheerssen at visualbridge.tv (Bruce Heerssen) Date: Thu Jun 28 12:26:40 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: <3B3AB72B.80709@visualbridge.tv> Message-ID: <3B3B681A.5050800@visualbridge.tv> Late last night I wrote: > After a hard reboot, the problem still exists. There doesn't seem to > be a bug listed at bugzilla that describes this. I'm still not certain > where the problem is, whether it's my installation here or something > else. I'm on win2k here at work. I'll check on linux and win98 when I > get get home. We'll get to the bottom of this yet. Didn't get to it last night, I'll try again this evening. -Bruce From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 28 20:19:29 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Jun 28 20:19:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] comment stats In-Reply-To: <3B3B57B6.9060300@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: 3% --> 13% --> 20% --> 12.5% general trend of more comments per article. next 3 months might give more insight however. > we've never encouraged extended participation with comments.. is that because: > extended discussion should take place on thelist ? if that is the preferred method, why do we provide the comment form and not refer people to thelist? if the site serves non-list subscribers, should we tell list members to raise their points there, and non-list members to use the site comment form? or should we just let things go as they have been? assuming that the trend of more comments per article increases, what are some methods we could/would implement to deal with that? threaded discussions? comments spanned over multiple pages? better indicator of comments added since last article visit? etc > lemme know if you want any more stats what about average comments per article over those same periods of time? (only if you have time - i'm just curious) i From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 28 20:24:34 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Jun 28 20:24:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <3B3AE8D6.24760.137C6A05@localhost> Message-ID: > > i can't prove that, i can't test it, but given how much work you have > to do to get onto the hit area for each comment you might want to > see and expand it in order to do a quick scan, as opposed to just > plain scrolling, it seems overengineered.. the original implementation by jeff allowed you to click anywhere in the comment title bar. it was a very quick process. > solution to a 'problem' identified by the two people doing it... i've > heard no other complaints that the comments are a problem as > they are... there have been few complaints re lack of content, gap between member and admin, dark design of original tagwear, etc - but does that mean they're not worth addressing? > i'm less concerned about the code and more concerned with the 4 > or 5 different hyperlinks with completely different functions in the > same 50px area... that's a lot of activity in a compressed space... yeh, that is something to also address. the permalink could be tacked onto the comment title as a small icon or something. however, it's a difficult concept to describe in a word or icon. even "link" doesn't do it perfectly (what's it a link to? i know, but do first time readers who haven't seen a blog before?) > yes, and i think you'll see the people who actually care to read the > comments would find the feature useless... what part of the thread > do you think i've missed? not all find it useless. the majority. i've seen no additional discussion about whether we need to address what comments have been added since last read. not even a +1/-1 or "it's easily possible, but would require too much code to do it properly". > would happen other than user discovery... you may not understand > why that is a bad thing, but that's ok, it's just a different > perspective... it is a negative side, but something that a regular user learns from after their first one or two attempts. > yes, but you need to consider how it worked the first time... if you > didn't know it was there, you click-dragged and the text > disappeared... that's *bad*.... it behaved in an unexpected way > without warning you... you're speaking as though it caused you to die of shock. you wasted an extra second the first time. it gave you a partial heart attack. whatever. after that, it saves time. anyone logging in has a membership, and therefore they're more likely to be using that login frequently (if not setting a cookie to remember them). > i think having a set number of comments result in an all-collapsed > state is much worse... it would happen on so few articles that the > user wouldn't learn how it works until they get to the right article... > yes, they will have seen the +/-, but they won't have seen an all- > collapsed state, and it will take them a moment to understand > what's going on... that's fair enough, and it's reasoning like that which suggests heavily that we should discard the feature. *shrug* > on your second visit... you've just qualified my point... and it > doesn't speed me up any more than if there were no text in there at > all... hell, the fields are labeled, i find the text frivolous > given how it behaves... but that is a completely different issue... you lose 1 second on your first visit. you save 1 second on all subsequent visits. how else are they labelled? it says login, and presents 2 boxes. if there wasn't text in there, i'd be guessing that it wanted user/pass (although alot of logins use email/pass instead). so, we need the text in there. as i've explained, regular users are the ones more likely to be using that login box. and thus more likely to benefit from the time saving of subsequent visits. > you outlined a problem that *you* perceive as a problem... have we > heard complaints from users? from anyone else? is it really a > problem? i am a user. i considered it a problem. it had to be raised in order to find out if it was worth addressing. it obviously isn't. > me... i do think that client-side scripting brings just too much risk, > and i think conditionally serving page content goes against how we > tried to build this... i always felt we should have write-once run > anywhere code, and serving up pages based on browser is exactly > the opposite of that... is serving up content based on feature more appropriate then? aren't we already doing this in a small way with the stylesheet? > yep, i hated it... i hope that's not the one we're gonna use (no > offense jeff, it's a great tool, but it's not how i work)... why would you care if that was the one we'd use if you weren't using it, and using it was a voluntary choice? isaac From mwarden at odyssey-design.com Thu Jun 28 20:39:13 2001 From: mwarden at odyssey-design.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Jun 28 20:39:13 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org References: Message-ID: <000001c1003c$9a50aa20$b0a11b18@cinci.rr.com> > From: "isaac" > Subject: RE: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org ... > > me... i do think that client-side scripting brings just too much risk, > > and i think conditionally serving page content goes against how we > > tried to build this... i always felt we should have write-once run > > anywhere code, and serving up pages based on browser is exactly > > the opposite of that... > > is serving up content based on feature more appropriate then? aren't we > already doing this in a small way with the stylesheet? I don't think so. I can show you even in NN2 how the stylesheet values (will) change after the stylesheet tool has been used. Functionality is server-side and works on all clients. The only thing left is what has ALWAYS been left... display of the stylesheet. > > yep, i hated it... i hope that's not the one we're gonna use (no > > offense jeff, it's a great tool, but it's not how i work)... > > why would you care if that was the one we'd use if you weren't using it, and > using it was a voluntary choice? I hope you can see how I think we're more worried about the kind of precedent that would set more than the feature itself. I mean, you're already referring to a stylesheet changer that isn't even built yet (and that's much more towards the right side of the gray line, if that makes sense). -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Jun 28 21:06:14 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Jun 28 21:06:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: <000001c1003c$9a50aa20$b0a11b18@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: > > is serving up content based on feature more appropriate then? aren't we > > already doing this in a small way with the stylesheet? > > I don't think so. I can show you even in NN2 how the stylesheet values > (will) change after the stylesheet tool has been used. Functionality is > server-side and works on all clients. The only thing left is what > has ALWAYS > been left... display of the stylesheet. are you talking about the stylechanger? i was talking about using CSS. > I hope you can see how I think we're more worried about the kind of > precedent that would set more than the feature itself. I mean, you're > already referring to a stylesheet changer that isn't even built yet (and > that's much more towards the right side of the gray line, if that makes > sense). i wasn't referring to the stylechanger in this case. personally, i wouldn't even build the stylechanger to the level that is generally discussed. i'd probably allow users to make the content area background white, and the font darker/larger, but not much else. i From roselli at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 00:06:19 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Fri Jun 29 00:06:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] comment stats In-Reply-To: References: <3B3B57B6.9060300@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <3B3BD393.11462.171182F9@localhost> leave it alone... comments are a good way to comment permanently in the context of the article, and to provide updates and alternate views... the list is too fleeting to support that... it's fine as-is... > From: "isaac" > > > we've never encouraged extended participation with comments.. > > is that because: > > > extended discussion should take place on thelist > > ? > > if that is the preferred method, why do we provide the comment form > and not refer people to thelist? > > if the site serves non-list subscribers, should we tell list members > to raise their points there, and non-list members to use the site > comment form? > > or should we just let things go as they have been? From isaac at members.evolt.org Fri Jun 29 00:27:09 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Fri Jun 29 00:27:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] comment stats In-Reply-To: <3B3BD393.11462.171182F9@localhost> Message-ID: > leave it alone... comments are a good way to comment > permanently in the context of the article, and to provide updates > and alternate views... the list is too fleeting to support that... +1 > it's fine as-is... how would you address things when (not if) we have 30 comments on 50% of articles? i looked at the frontdoor this morning. a good portion of articles had 8-10+ comments. i don't see the trend reversing over time. (neither am i saying that we're gonna get there next week, but it'd be nice to have the discussion in advance while it's a topic.) isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From roselli at earthlink.net Fri Jun 29 00:40:14 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Fri Jun 29 00:40:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] comments on test.evolt.org In-Reply-To: References: <3B3AE8D6.24760.137C6A05@localhost> Message-ID: <3B3BDB8E.22911.1730AEDB@localhost> > From: "isaac" > > > > i can't prove that, i can't test it, but given how much work you > > have to do to get onto the hit area for each comment you might want > > to see and expand it in order to do a quick scan, as opposed to just > > plain scrolling, it seems overengineered.. > > the original implementation by jeff allowed you to click anywhere in > the comment title bar. it was a very quick process. yes, and that was a very poor implementation... using an otherwise link-free region, denoted only by color bar (which has another meaning in this site), as a giant hyperlink while it still holds at least one real hyperlink is just a bad idea... the hit state is too large to the expando-box, and too small for the hyperlink... and stacking them like that is just a bad idea... no, that had to go, so that argument's pretty hollow... anyone who doesn't agree with that assessment, let me know, but i stand by it... > > solution to a 'problem' identified by the two people doing it... > > i've heard no other complaints that the comments are a problem as > > they are... > > there have been few complaints re lack of content, gap between member > and admin, dark design of original tagwear, etc - but does that mean > they're not worth addressing? we've addressed them all... we've tried a few things on content, we've worked on the member/admin roles, we're re-doing tagwear... but those were all pretty much a quorum... we *all* felt that there was an issue in each of those points, even if it were small... OTOH, i had not heard any complaints on too many comments until the development started... as such, i didn't see a problem that needed to be solved... that doesn't mean development shouldn't have started... you saw what you felt was a problem, and you prototyped a solution... i just think you've created a complex solution to a lack of a problem... > > i'm less concerned about the code and more concerned with the 4 or 5 > > different hyperlinks with completely different functions in the same > > 50px area... that's a lot of activity in a compressed space... > > yeh, that is something to also address. the permalink could be tacked > onto the comment title as a small icon or something. however, it's a > difficult concept to describe in a word or icon. even "link" doesn't > do it perfectly (what's it a link to? i know, but do first time > readers who haven't seen a blog before?) yeah, that's something we'll have to address... icons with titles/alts might help, but that will require discovery for first-time users... anyone have real-world examples of any of those...? if you do keep the expando-thingie, then it really should move to the right edge of that box and sit there... it opens things up on the left and doesn't purport to be a hyperlink in a barrage of real hyperlinks... > > yes, and i think you'll see the people who actually care to read the > > comments would find the feature useless... what part of the thread > > do you think i've missed? > > not all find it useless. the majority. no, my comment was that the people who read the comments, who know they are there and scroll down to see them, will find the feature useless... it's an assertion, yes, but i suspect it's pretty accurate... > i've seen no additional discussion about whether we need to address > what comments have been added since last read. not even a +1/-1 or > "it's easily possible, but would require too much code to do it > properly". yeah, i can see value in that, but i'd like to see it as en evolt box on the right, much like we've prototyped for admin... doing it on a per- page basis seems silly, since 9 times out of 10 there'll be nothing new... but coming to the home page and seeing a list on the right will make me go look at them... i didn't address it because it didn't seem on-topic for this, and we've already strayed a lot... [regarding the login box] > > would happen other than user discovery... you may not understand why > > that is a bad thing, but that's ok, it's just a different > > perspective... > > it is a negative side, but something that a regular user learns from > after their first one or two attempts. agreed... i just try to minimize the need for users to learn how to use a site... if there isn't a common model that exists, i look at why not (perhaps it's not necessary) and look at the common implementations if it does exist to see what works... > > yes, but you need to consider how it worked the first time... if you > > didn't know it was there, you click-dragged and the text > > disappeared... that's *bad*.... it behaved in an unexpected way > > without warning you... > > you're speaking as though it caused you to die of shock. you wasted an > extra second the first time. it gave you a partial heart attack. > whatever. after that, it saves time. anyone logging in has a > membership, and therefore they're more likely to be using that login > frequently (if not setting a cookie to remember them). you discount that extra second too quickly... after you run a few user tests on something and notice people respond to something that behaves differently than they expect, you'll see they often decide that it's *broken*... don't discount how users react... what may seem silly to you can be a big deal to others... by writing it off as silly, you discount the value of your users' opinions, and when they sense it, they lose faith in the site as a whole... write that comment off if you want, but it's proven itself a lot to me, and i'll at least fight for it... i *was* surprised, though... it wasn't in my code... that's not good or bad, that's just how i saw it... > > i think having a set number of comments result in an all-collapsed > > state is much worse... it would happen on so few articles that the > > user wouldn't learn how it works until they get to the right > > article... yes, they will have seen the +/-, but they won't have > > seen an all- collapsed state, and it will take them a moment to > > understand what's going on... > > that's fair enough, and it's reasoning like that which suggests > heavily that we should discard the feature. *shrug* ok... what are we doing? i am enjoying this discussion as i think it's helping us feel out what features we want to see, but what are we gonna do? [regarding the login box again] > > on your second visit... you've just qualified my point... and it > > doesn't speed me up any more than if there were no text in there at > > all... hell, the fields are labeled, i find the text frivolous given > > how it behaves... but that is a completely different issue... > > you lose 1 second on your first visit. you save 1 second on all > subsequent visits. see above about lost seconds (how many seconds for a page load before users wander off?)... although that feature doesn't save me any time on subsequent visits... if i'm logged in via the cookie, it's moot... if i'm not, it saves *no* time, it does not speed up my mouse, my access, or anything else... it just labels fields i've already discovered... careful how you qualify how it saves time... you still have to click in the box no matter what is or isn't there... our non-JS users and older browser users, OTOH, always get slowed down... and that, IMO, is A Bad Thing... it's tantamount to the upgrade or screw off campaign... > how else are they labelled? it says login, and presents 2 boxes. if > there wasn't text in there, i'd be guessing that it wanted user/pass > (although alot of logins use email/pass instead). in one of my cuts of the HTML, it had the two fields labeled with text... i think it was discarded when it was plugged into the CF... dunno why, since i think it was more efficient and friendly... which might be why i don't see that on multitudes of other sites... > so, we need the text in there. as i've explained, regular users are > the ones more likely to be using that login box. and thus more likely > to benefit from the time saving of subsequent visits. regular users will use it once... then their cookie will handle it after that... you haven't sped anything up... labeling a field in the text box vs. outside of it doesn't speed a thing up... unless you can tell me how it makes me go faster by moving my mouse, reducing or increasing my hit area, or any other Fitt's Law application... > > you outlined a problem that *you* perceive as a problem... have we > > heard complaints from users? from anyone else? is it really a > > problem? > > i am a user. i considered it a problem. it had to be raised in order > to find out if it was worth addressing. it obviously isn't. and it's good you did that... and it's good you guys prototyped it... i love that we do that, i think it's the best way to test things... if i hadn't seen it i might have thought it was less bad of an idea... > > me... i do think that client-side scripting brings just too much > > risk, and i think conditionally serving page content goes against > > how we tried to build this... i always felt we should have > > write-once run anywhere code, and serving up pages based on browser > > is exactly the opposite of that... > > is serving up content based on feature more appropriate then? aren't > we already doing this in a small way with the stylesheet? no, we aren't serving conditionally... we serve a CSS file, period... we also serve