[thesite] comments on test.evolt.org

aardvark roselli at earthlink.net
Thu Jun 28 07:24:24 CDT 2001


> From: "isaac" <isaac at members.evolt.org>
> 
> > - i don't see what purpose it serves, other than as JS eye-candy...
> 
> YOU don't see what purpose it serves. i do. i would use the feature. i
> don't doubt that others might also (especially if we further adapted
> the idea as i have suggested).

i think you're missing the point... i see why some of you want it, 
but it feels like one of those things where when you sit down with a 
usability study, you find it takes people longer to do a task than 
they think it takes...

i can't prove that, i can't test it, but given how much work you have 
to do to get onto the hit area for each comment you might want to 
see and expand it in order to do a quick scan, as opposed to just 
plain scrolling, it seems overengineered..

i know i can't change your perspective on that, and i'm not trying 
to, but i do want you to understand that you are proposing a 
solution to a 'problem' identified by the two people doing it... i've 
heard no other complaints that the comments are a problem as 
they are...

> whether the minority using it warrants inflicting the extra code on
> the majority, is a different case. as i have said, i'm happy to miss
> out on that feature should the majority consider it a disadvantage to
> them.

and that depends on the amount of code, the potential for errors, 
etc... personally, i think the +/- looks just plain bad where it is... 
i'm less concerned about the code and more concerned with the 4 
or 5 different hyperlinks with completely different functions in the 
same 50px area... that's a lot of activity in a compressed space...

> > sure, we can do it, but for those who want to read the comments,
> > they'll never use it (or they'll have to expand them all) and for
> > those
> 
> i want to read the comments. i would use it. have you been reading
> these threads?

yes, and i think you'll see the people who actually care to read the 
comments would find the feature useless... what part of the thread 
do you think i've missed?

> > sample text on focus when the 2.0 rolled out, my first reaction was
> > 'what the hell?  i just had to move my mouse to select for
> 
> i can't believe that you don't ride a horse around instead of drive a
> car...

i would, but i can't get the horse to tow the car... either way, that 
was JS inserted to speed people up, and the first few times i used 
it, it slowed me down... IOW, a very predictable element (an input 
area with text) behaved in an unpredictable way (it disappeared on 
focus, instead of allowing me to highlight), with no indication that 
would happen other than user discovery... you may not understand 
why that is a bad thing, but that's ok, it's just a different 
perspective...

but *that's* how you go about testing the utility of things in an 
interface... in this case, the +/- has no preconceivd expectation 
other than a generic more/less message... that's not the problem... 
it's the location that is the problem...

> > nothing?'... over time, i've found that i don't care, but it in no
> > way speeds *me* up, but for the few characters of code, it's no
> > biggie (if
> 
> speeds me up. i'm sure it speeds things up for many others.

it very well may...

> previously: click or click-drag in login box. delete text. enter
> username. now: click. enter username.

yes, but you need to consider how it worked the first time... if you 
didn't know it was there, you click-dragged and the text 
disappeared... that's *bad*.... it behaved in an unexpected way 
without warning you...

users shouldn't have to learn how to use common interface 
elements if you can leverage previous experience... i didn't think it 
was too big a deal so i didn't worry about it, but i still think it was 
problematic (and still is for new users)...

i think having a set number of comments result in an all-collapsed 
state is much worse... it would happen on so few articles that the 
user wouldn't learn how it works until they get to the right article... 
yes, they will have seen the +/-, but they won't have seen an all-
collapsed state, and it will take them a moment to understand 
what's going on...

> assuming you don't use the cookie/remember-me feature, once you've
> learnt that (hopefully on your second visit), how could that not speed
> you up?

on your second visit... you've just qualified my point... and it 
doesn't speed me up any more than if there were no text in there at 
all... hell, the fields are labeled, i find the text frivolous given how it 
behaves... but that is a completely different issue...

> > browser to crunch since it's so simple... but to now have DHTML for
> > no hard reason, with so much variance in how it might work and
> > display, and with no specific problems we're trying to solve, it
> > just seems like frivolous code for code's sake...
> 
> i outlined the problem on admin (dealing with epic lists of comments),
> the reason was provided. variance is another issue. the one variation

you outlined a problem that *you* perceive as a problem... have we 
heard complaints from users?  from anyone else?  is it really a 
problem?

> so far discovered appears to be with a beta browser. as much as
> everyone loves to support little mozilla, should we race to support
> apparent bugs in other beta browsers (no matter how small?).

that's not my concern... the beta browser issue is a non-issue to 
me... i do think that client-side scripting brings just too much risk, 
and i think conditionally serving page content goes against how we 
tried to build this... i always felt we should have write-once run 
anywhere code, and serving up pages based on browser is exactly 
the opposite of that...

> > now, i do whole-heartedly support the prototyping approach... build
> > it up to a degree, show it off, get some feedback... i say continue
> > with that, and don't feel bad if an idea doesn't make it to
> > production...
> 
> +1

right-o...

> > btw, i'm already steeling myself for the rich text editor you're
> > talking about... keep in mind i use notepad because it doesn't do
> > code completion or make assumptions about HTML...
> 
> if you don't want to use it, don't use it. it won't be enabled by
> default. it will be an enhancement for those who want to use it.

woo hoo !

> it was running on the admin side of the www.evolt.org site before the
> redesign. did you notice it?

yep, i hated it... i hope that's not the one we're gonna use (no 
offense jeff, it's a great tool, but it's not how i work)...





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