From gnarly at punkass.com Thu Nov 1 07:06:21 2001 From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson) Date: Thu Nov 1 07:06:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? References: <200111010216.TAA03206@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: <017a01c162cf$6b42b250$0100a8c0@olly> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean Mah" Subject: Re: [thesite] Tips on members page? > It doesn't check which e-mail address that you are subscribed to > thelist with. It checks the e-mail address that you send the message > from and the e-mail address that you signed up to evolt.org with. > > In the case of a couple of your tips, you sent them from > gnarly at punkass.com which is what you signed up to evolt.org with and > so they are associated correctly. > > Dean Ah right, thats me getting confused then - I thought I was signing into w.e.o under one email address (gnarly at punkass) and using theList with another (gnarly at gmx). I'm not. D'OH! Olly - www.gnarly.f2s.com - From dmah at shaw.ca Thu Nov 1 07:39:59 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Thu Nov 1 07:39:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: from "Warden, Matt" at Oct 31, 2001 05:46:55 PM Message-ID: <200111011340.GAA00751@alice.monkeyland.ca> You could do a search for the author's various names / nicknamess. The search checks the given tip type, author (given and matched weo), and tip body. Dean Warden, Matt writes: > What about an additional "list by author" feature in thetips section > and a link to it on the member/user page? > > It won't get all the tips, probably. From dmah at shaw.ca Thu Nov 1 10:10:48 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Thu Nov 1 10:10:48 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: from "Warden, Matt" at Oct 31, 2001 05:46:55 PM Message-ID: <200111011610.JAA01231@alice.monkeyland.ca> I think that I've replied to this message 3 times now. Anyway.... Is there consensus on adding a list of tips on to the matched member's evolt.org profile page similar to the way that the approved and denied articles are listed? It will slow the page down a bit to do the extra query and it is not guaranteed to get all of the tips unless we expand the search from just userid to include trying to match things like first and last name of the given author attribute. Making the search fuzzy will slow it down even more as it won't be able to use the table indexes (assuming that there are any). Matt, how do you envision the 'list by author' feature working? Are you thinking of a pulldown menu of tip authors? (As mentioned previously, you can do a search for the author in the current setup.) Where did you want this feature added, to the weekly page, tip detail page, or ...? Thanks, Dean Warden, Matt writes: > On Nov 1, Lindsay Evans had something to say about [thesite] Tips on... > > >Not sure if this has been discussed before, but in addition to linking to > >the mebers profile in the tip harvester, how about a listing of the tips > >users have written on their profile page? > > > >Seems like it would be fairly easy to do, but I'm not very familiar with the > >whole tip harvester thing... > > What about an additional "list by author" feature in thetips section and a > link to it on the member/user page? > > It won't get all the tips, probably. It only links up the tips to actual > userids if there happens to be enough information (same email address, > etc.) in the harvested email/tip. From djc at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 1 11:28:59 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Nov 1 11:28:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting App. and UEUE References: Message-ID: <3BE1866C.3070207@members.evolt.org> what about MEO accounts who don't want voting rights, just the space and shit? i mean, its not like they're going to members.evolt.org and applying for an account with the hopes of becoming a voting member of evolt, they're going there to get free space, email, whatever. the people that *want* to vote and have a voice in the discussions should be on thefourm list(as should this conversation :). what about the plan to make 'members' in the sense of editing their member information on w.e.o a priv level 2? i think this is getting more complicated than it needs to be :) .djc. isaac wrote: > As MEO people run through the same check as future voting members (i.e., > regarding level of contribution), it makes sense (to me), to run future MEO > people through the same procedure. i.e., you apply for MEO, and you get > voting rights. Or you apply for voting rights, and you get the option of an > MEO account. > > So, I think we should give MEO people priv=2, and that's the voting priv. > > I see the current priv scheme as covering admin voting, voting members > (includes MEO people), general membership, etc. In your scheme, it doesn't > cover BoD votes or those specific to actual lists. Ideas on ways for > handling that? From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Nov 1 11:34:02 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Nov 1 11:34:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: [thasite] voting application References: Message-ID: <3BE1879B.5060905@starkmedia.com> moving this to a more appropriate list.. isaac wrote: > I know you have little interest in using a voting method to ascertain entry > to privileged status. But I've not seen an effective alternative. *shrug* i just don't want people to be intimidated or afraid of anything.. a vote suggests competition or 'Absolute Review' of the work someones done. maybe its just me though and people will be cool with that if we go that direction .djc. From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Nov 1 13:18:41 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Nov 1 13:18:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: <200111011610.JAA01231@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 1, Dean Mah had something to say about Re: [thesite] Tips on members... >Matt, how do you envision the 'list by author' feature working? Are >you thinking of a pulldown menu of tip authors? (As mentioned >previously, you can do a search for the author in the current setup.) >Where did you want this feature added, to the weekly page, tip detail >page, or ...? Actually, I meant instead of listing the articles. Just a link saying "This authors tips' or something of that sort pointed at http://lists.evolt.org/thetips/index.cfm/a/whatever?userid=### Know what i mean? And that would negate the issue of an extra query... -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From gnarly at punkass.com Thu Nov 1 14:25:15 2001 From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson) Date: Thu Nov 1 14:25:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? References: Message-ID: <007501c16313$a40f7750$0100a8c0@olly> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warden, Matt" Subject: Re: [thesite] Tips on members page? > Actually, I meant instead of listing the articles. Just a link saying > "This authors tips' or something of that sort pointed at > http://lists.evolt.org/thetips/index.cfm/a/whatever?userid=### > > Know what i mean? +1 Olly - www.gnarly-bitches.co.uk - From djc at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 1 15:40:07 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Nov 1 15:40:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] October stats for evolt.org Message-ID: <3BE1C147.6080201@members.evolt.org> Hola! October stats are done, and it looks like another nice month :) Hits: 1.3Mil Page views: 533,000(another record!) IP's served: 68,000 Page views day: 20,000 Data Transfer: 62Gb Data Transfer/day: 2.2Gb of interest: bit of a short month(28 days) this time around as the logs didn't roll on the 1st of october(i was in mexico till the 4th), but still a record month in terms of page views. top referers for the month were google(about 12k referers), slashdot(about 10k referers) to my apache/spidert article, dynamicdrive.com(3k referers) to a m.e.o account, and macromedia.com(about 2k referers) to another m.e.o account. top five members.evolt.org accounts were deadL0ck, djc, desflynn, cutrprinx, and shaddow. top search queries where 'netscape themes', 'content managment system', and 'browsers'. various versions of Navigator were the most downloaded browsers from the browser archive. the 'code', 'software', and 'visual design' were the most popular categories respectivley on www.evolt.org this month nice job and a big thanks to all the authors that contribute their content, time and energy :) http://browsers.evolt.org/stats/stats.oct2001.html as always, feel free to shout if there are questions or comments :) .djc. From webguru at vsnl.net Thu Nov 1 15:46:54 2001 From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon) Date: Thu Nov 1 15:46:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] priv levels (was: voting application) In-Reply-To: <20011101210712.A0C989C3@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102031607.0280d2d0@203.197.12.4> At 02:37 AM 11/2/2001, you wrote: >What do you think of matt's idea to have: > > priv 2 = voting rights > > priv 3 = voting rights + admin rights OK, I'm new here. Can you clue me in on what "priv 2" and "priv 3" are. Thanks, Madhu <<< * >>> Madhu Menon User Experience Consultant e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net From djc at starkmedia.com Thu Nov 1 16:03:23 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Nov 1 16:03:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] priv levels (was: voting application) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102031607.0280d2d0@203.197.12.4> Message-ID: <3BE1C6BC.7020806@starkmedia.com> every user in the DB has a priv level assigned to them. when you register on the evolt site, you have a priv level of 1 2 is unused but being discussed here obviously :) 3 is for 'admin' priviledges. the evolt.org page looks a lot different if you're logged in and have a priv level of '3'. for example: http://members.evolt.org/djc/temp/admin.png 4 is 'god' priv level.. only a copule people have this and they can permenantly delete articles among other things holler if you have more questions :) .djc. Madhu Menon wrote: > At 02:37 AM 11/2/2001, you wrote: > >> What do you think of matt's idea to have: >> >> priv 2 = voting rights >> >> priv 3 = voting rights + admin rights > > > OK, I'm new here. Can you clue me in on what "priv 2" and "priv 3" are. From r937 at interlog.com Thu Nov 1 16:07:59 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Nov 1 16:07:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] priv levels (was: voting application) Message-ID: <01c16321$a8e2f000$834d149a@rudy> >OK, I'm new here. Can you clue me in on what "priv 2" and "priv 3" are. you are also way past your bedtime, young man 0 = guest, public, unrestricted 1 = user (registered on evolt.org, e.g. to add a comment) 2 = member ("more than a user") 3 = admin 4 = god "priv" stands for either privilege or privacy (take your pick) the basic idea is this -- every piece of data has a priv level attached to it, indicating its level of privacy, so that the person looking at it has to have a priv level equal or higher users who register through the evolt site are assigned a priv of 1 automatically, and admins are given priv 3 manually through a brute force database update we do not yet have a mechanism for members anyhow, the way the priv concept is supposed to work, we could add articles to the site that document admin procedures, give such articles a priv level of 3, and then you'd have to be an admin to see them similarly for the member pages, where each piece of data has a priv level, i would tag my email id with priv 0, my home phone with 1, my pager (if i had one) with 2, and so on... dig? now get to bed, you evolt-a-holic rudemeister p.s. there may be some confusion about the *actions* that certain people are authorized to perform, e.g. sign on to the database, reset somebody's mail status, and so on -- but i would rather that these not be co-mingled with the priv concept From evolt at spinhead.com Thu Nov 1 16:09:10 2001 From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead) Date: Thu Nov 1 16:09:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] priv levels (was: voting application) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102031607.0280d2d0@203.197.12.4> <3BE1C6BC.7020806@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <005101c16321$dda456d0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Not sure which lists this should go to these days ;) but we should announce loudly that logging in (or eventually, being at a different level?) will get you a different view. I may just be ignerrunt but I looked at the site for months before it ever occurred to me to log in, and voila! new cool toys. spinhead ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [thesite] priv levels (was: voting application) > every user in the DB has a priv level assigned to them. > > when you register on the evolt site, you have a priv level of 1 > 2 is unused but being discussed here obviously :) > > 3 is for 'admin' priviledges. the evolt.org page looks a lot different > if you're logged in and have a priv level of '3'. for example: > > http://members.evolt.org/djc/temp/admin.png > > 4 is 'god' priv level.. only a copule people have this and they can > permenantly delete articles among other things > > holler if you have more questions :) > > .djc. > > > Madhu Menon wrote: > > > At 02:37 AM 11/2/2001, you wrote: > > > >> What do you think of matt's idea to have: > >> > >> priv 2 = voting rights > >> > >> priv 3 = voting rights + admin rights > > > > > > OK, I'm new here. Can you clue me in on what "priv 2" and "priv 3" are. > > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From djc at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 1 16:15:35 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Nov 1 16:15:35 2001 Subject: [thesite] priv levels (was: voting application) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102031607.0280d2d0@203.197.12.4> <3BE1C6BC.7020806@starkmedia.com> <005101c16321$dda456d0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Message-ID: <3BE1C997.4060609@members.evolt.org> spinhead wrote: > Not sure which lists this should go to these days ;) but we should announce haha - i've felt the same way for months.. :) > loudly that logging in (or eventually, being at a different level?) will get > you a different view. I may just be ignerrunt but I looked at the site for > months before it ever occurred to me to log in, and voila! new cool toys. true dat. this would make a cool article for the FAQ section on the site maybe. we need a minister of propoganda :) .djc. From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 1 17:23:02 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Nov 1 17:23:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] priv levels (was: voting application) In-Reply-To: <01c16321$a8e2f000$834d149a@rudy> Message-ID: rudy, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: rudy > > [...] admins are given priv 3 manually through a brute > force database update ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< not anymore. t.e.o. now has a mechanism in place for priv 4 to change anybody's priv (including their own, but why would you want to?). thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Nov 1 18:20:44 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Nov 1 18:20:44 2001 Subject: Propoganda FAQ.... was ..... Re: [thesite] priv levels (was: voting application) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102031607.0280d2d0@203.197.12.4> <3BE1C6BC.7020806@starkmedia.com> <005101c16321$dda456d0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> <3BE1C997.4060609@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: <000401c16334$8bf31f20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" | | spinhead wrote: | | > loudly that logging in (or eventually, being at a different level?) will get | > you a different view. I may just be ignerrunt but I looked at the site for | > months before it ever occurred to me to log in, and voila! new cool toys. | | | true dat. this would make a cool article for the FAQ section on the site | maybe. we need a minister of propoganda :) Such as: A Road Map to Evolt.org ? How to Use Evolt.org ? other ides? Am I on the same wave length ? (I've got a lot of draft documentation written by various people already, that could be pulled together.) Will have to be a Working Document, i.e. many things in the works now will change this document (UEUE, Voting App., f.e.o., etc.). Can one document display different data based on a User's Priv Level? Just asking, not sure we'd want to do this. Mich From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Nov 1 18:31:25 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Nov 1 18:31:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting App. and UEUE References: Message-ID: <000901c16336$0ac2b1c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Jeff, ----- Original Message ----- From: ".jeff" | michele, | | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | > When theprocess ran through their first set of votes, a | > few suggestions were made immediately, to change the | > voting application. One of those suggestions was that | > the votes be anonymous, i.e. don't list who has already | > voted. | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | more importantly, *don't* show the results at all until the vote is closed. | then, showing or not showing those who've voted so far is a non-issue. That's an option .. kinda nice to have the flexibility for "votes" that don't really matter. e.g. "do you hand code or use a wysiwyg program?", "what is your current browser of choice?" or whatever. More "polls" than votes. Separate question .. does voting application = survey application ? (tho perhaps not the first survey that's being fleshed out on theForum) | | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | > Doing this meant that even those not "allowed" to vote, | > could still vote, as no one would be the wiser that | > someone had voted who wasn't supposed to. | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | it doesn't have to happen this way though. if there is enough cry for it we | can develop the survey/voting application with the ability to either limit | the survey/vote to an entire priv or even to a defined group of | users/members. this sort of solution would allow us to guarantee that only | the appropriate people can vote. This would be great .. and this is what I was getting at .. with respect to the voting application and how the priv levels on weo may not equate the those "allowed" to vote on a particular issue. | | the important thing is that we need to know what people want to see in it | *before* we develop it. that will save everyone a ton of time trying to | work in new things later on (because they'll hopefully already be accounted | for from the beginning). Yup, absolutely ... are you running with this, expanding upon what David had originally proposed? | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | > However, what IS missing still, is the ability to say | > explicitly who gets to vote on what question. | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | no reason that can't be developed in the w.e.o. implementation. Awesome. :) | > | > [...] I don't see how w.e.o.'s current priv level is | > going to work for the voting application. [...] I | > think we need to think about this a bit more and | > decide how best to give rights to those that are | > "allowed" to vote, and to keep out those that aren't. | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | as i see it we only need to break it down based on priv. however, as i've | already said, if the call is there to be able to assign votes/surveys to | individual members, then i'm fine with that. I think so .. as stated above. Just an additional feature. I do see your point, that for a lot of cases/polls/surveys, the w.e.o. Priv ID will be more than adequate. The rest of my original message was with respect to UEUE .. and nothing to do with Voting App. I got an impression that you didn't realize I has switched discussion of apps/implementation mid-way through. Sorry for not being more clear. Anything ya need help with on this, just holler. :) Mich From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Nov 1 18:44:07 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Nov 1 18:44:07 2001 Subject: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting App. and UEUE References: Message-ID: <000e01c16337$d132c100$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> cc'd to thesite and theforum ... *damn I dunno what belongs where these days either* (Sorry if this is confusing to some of theforum members, but my original question was wrt priv levels and how they impact upon the voting application and the ueue scheme being worked on.) Hey Isaac, ----- Original Message ----- From: "isaac" | Votes could range from something completely casual (requiring no membership | or priv level), to something requiring priv 3. i.e., voting won't only be on | admin-related issues. They may effect admins only, or the wider membership. | And WEO is the site for the wider membership, right? | | > Admin only | > BOD only | > Admin and BOD only | > theProcess list members only | > theForum list members only | > theSite list members only (ok, not come up yet ;) | > Voting Members (which may or may not = theForum members) | > General Membership (currently defined at Priv = 1 in weo) | > Members (currently, sort of, maybe defined at Priv = 2 in weo, i.e. those | > with Member Pages) | | theforum members won't vote. Voting members will vote. Any member of | theforum wishing to vote will register their interest and be voted in or | not. Based on Jeff's response, it's not really an issue. But why do you think theforum would not vote? I mean, similar to how theProcess had votes on certain issues that affect their working group. You don't think that having a voting mechanism in place to facilitate keeping track of conversations and people's concensus on a particular item, will be a part of theForum? Jeff's idea of including the flexibility to list certain members as being allowed to vote on a particular vote, will take care of this. Just another level of determining who should be voting on what. | | As MEO people run through the same check as future voting members (i.e., | regarding level of contribution), it makes sense (to me), to run future MEO | people through the same procedure. i.e., you apply for MEO, and you get | voting rights. Or you apply for voting rights, and you get the option of an | MEO account. | | So, I think we should give MEO people priv=2, and that's the voting priv. I'm not sure I would agree with this. I think Dan's commented already. My additional concern would be that there were several (couple hundred) member accounts given out BEFORE we put the restrictions in effect. I'd prefer for each person to decide and apply (however that may be) that "I want to be a Member with voting priviledges" (note, on those votes that the voting membership votes on). [Sidenote, dang, this is getting confusing.] | | I see the current priv scheme as covering admin voting, voting members | (includes MEO people), general membership, etc. In your scheme, it doesn't | cover BoD votes or those specific to actual lists. Ideas on ways for | handling that? I don't know .. or didn't until Jeff responded. He's said he can include that additional flexibility to limit votes (within the voting app) to selected members. That should solve the problem ... exactly how Jeff envisions this, I'm not sure .. nor am I sure I wanna know.. hehehehe ;) Michele From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 1 18:49:05 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Nov 1 18:49:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting App. and UEUE In-Reply-To: <000901c16336$0ac2b1c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: michele, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Michele Foster > > | more importantly, *don't* show the results at all > | until the vote is closed. then, showing or not > | showing those who've voted so far is a non-issue. > > That's an option .. kinda nice to have the flexibility > for "votes" that don't really matter. e.g. "do you > hand code or use a wysiwyg program?", "what is your > current browser of choice?" or whatever. More "polls" > than votes. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< right. these would be considered polls or surveys and the rules governing how the application functions would change for these. for example, polls/surveys would probably display the results up to that point. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Separate question .. does voting application = survey > application ? (tho perhaps not the first survey that's > being fleshed out on theForum) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< voting application and survey application can (and should) be the same application. however, there are a few minor differences in how they're run that the application will account for. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > This would be great .. and this is what I was getting > at .. with respect to the voting application and how the > priv levels on weo may not equate the those "allowed" to > vote on a particular issue. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< that's where our opinions differ. i just don't see the need to create so much distinction. i don't see any reason why the privs on w.e.o. can't equate to voting privilege. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Yup, absolutely ... are you running with this, [...] ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yes, isaac and myself. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > expanding upon what David had originally proposed? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The rest of my original message was with respect to UEUE > .. and nothing to do with Voting App. I got an > impression that you didn't realize I has switched > discussion of apps/implementation mid-way through. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ah, that would be the cause of confusion then. i'm not even going to consider the implications of ueue on other applications until i see more concrete development of the ueue concept and prototype. there are just too many variables in that to consider right now. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From dmah at shaw.ca Thu Nov 1 19:04:33 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Thu Nov 1 19:04:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: from "Warden, Matt" at Nov 01, 2001 02:19:32 PM Message-ID: <200111020104.SAA03047@alice.monkeyland.ca> Okay, I've added a link on test.evolt.org. It will search for tips associated with the person's userid. But like you mentioned earlier, this will not catch all of the tips actually written by the user. Dean Warden, Matt writes: > Actually, I meant instead of listing the articles. Just a link saying > "This authors tips' or something of that sort pointed at > http://lists.evolt.org/thetips/index.cfm/a/whatever?userid=### > > Know what i mean? > > And that would negate the issue of an extra query... From r937 at interlog.com Thu Nov 1 19:22:32 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Thu Nov 1 19:22:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting App. and UEUE Message-ID: <01c1633c$f3e456a0$834d149a@rudy> > i just don't see the need to create so much distinction. me neither > i don't see any reason why the privs on w.e.o. > can't equate to voting privilege. me neither let's keep it simple (sorry to disagree with you, matt -- it happens so infrequently....) we already have members, even though we have not yet physically created their member records or assigned them the priv 2 level -- nevertheless, that's where we're headed now, if y'all want to slap together a whole nuther scheme (think of overlapping venn diagrams) for identifying people who may or may not be members but who can vote, then be my guest, knock yourself out, go nuts, but don't forget to integrate it with the ueue scheme, because sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, you are gonna have user table synchronization problems on the gripping hand, if y'all want to use priv for voting, that's cool furthemore, let's not forget we don't even know for sure what kind of voting we're talking about here -- the kind of survey we're currently prototyping warrants, in my most humble opinion, a priv level no higher than 1, and i can see where we could even have a priv 0 survey rudy From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Nov 1 19:26:32 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Nov 1 19:26:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? References: <200111020104.SAA03047@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: <002401c1633d$be8310e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Damn, that's awesome. :) Thanks Dean Mich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean Mah" | Okay, I've added a link on test.evolt.org. It will search for tips | associated with the person's userid. But like you mentioned earlier, | this will not catch all of the tips actually written by the user. | | Dean From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 1 19:30:11 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Nov 1 19:30:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting App. and UEUE In-Reply-To: <01c1633c$f3e456a0$834d149a@rudy> Message-ID: rudy, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: rudy > > let's keep it simple ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< my point exactly. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > we already have members, even though we have not yet > physically created their member records or assigned > them the priv 2 level -- nevertheless, that's where > we're headed ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< *and* since we've not gone there yet, there's nothing that says we can't have the assignment of priv 2 be something that's done manually (ie, by a human) rather than automatically. that prevents anybody from just walking in a getting voting privileges. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > furthemore, let's not forget we don't even know for sure > what kind of voting we're talking about here ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< amen. the way i see it there's no argument in the world that says we won't want votes that go all up and done the priv scale, including priv 0. in fact, as soon as this application is built and in place, i'm guessing we're going to come up with all sorts of new uses for it. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From isaac at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 1 19:32:49 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Thu Nov 1 19:32:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: <200111020104.SAA03047@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: > Okay, I've added a link on test.evolt.org. It will search for tips > associated with the person's userid. But like you mentioned earlier, > this will not catch all of the tips actually written by the user. good work. can someone add (perhaps in brackets) a link to a definition of tips (probably currently within the list guidelines doc)? i From michele at wordpro.on.ca Thu Nov 1 19:36:28 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Thu Nov 1 19:36:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? References: <200111020104.SAA03047@alice.monkeyland.ca> <002401c1633d$be8310e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <002e01c1633f$1faff800$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Umm.. No results for .jeff (under .jeffrey instead), djc, matt ? :( Only 4 for isaac ? 191 for Rudy at: http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/search/index.html?userid=20 but, how do I get to view past the first 1-10 ? Mich | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Dean Mah" | | | | Okay, I've added a link on test.evolt.org. It will search for tips | | associated with the person's userid. But like you mentioned earlier, | | this will not catch all of the tips actually written by the user. | | | | Dean From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Nov 1 19:44:00 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Nov 1 19:44:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting App. and UEUE In-Reply-To: <01c1633c$f3e456a0$834d149a@rudy> Message-ID: On Nov 1, rudy had something to say about Re: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting... >> i don't see any reason why the privs on w.e.o. >> can't equate to voting privilege. > >me neither > >let's keep it simple > >(sorry to disagree with you, matt -- it happens so infrequently....) Hey, disagreeing with me is fine. But, you're actually agreeing with me here. More infrequently than you thought, I guess... >on the gripping hand, if y'all want to use priv for voting, that's cool Well, splitting hairs maybe, but I'd rather see the terminology/whatever kept as priv 2 = member, priv 3 = admin, etc. rather than priv 2 = voter. And, I'd bet cash on you agreeing with that, you data modler, you. Describing a level, not a specific privlege. >furthemore, let's not forget we don't even know for sure what kind of >voting we're talking about here -- the kind of survey we're currently >prototyping warrants, in my most humble opinion, a priv level no higher >than 1, and i can see where we could even have a priv 0 survey yes, and there could also be a distinction between voting priv and result-viewing priv, as jeff hit on. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 1 19:48:15 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Nov 1 19:48:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: <002e01c1633f$1faff800$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: michele, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Michele Foster > > No results for .jeff (under .jeffrey instead), djc, > matt ? :( Only 4 for isaac ? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yeah, i noticed that too. :( ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > 191 for Rudy at: > http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/search/index.html?userid=20 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< too bad those urls couldn't be something more like: http://lists.evolt.org/tips/search/?userid=20 oh well, all in good time. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > but, how do I get to view past the first 1-10 ? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< the userid needs to be added to the pageresults bit at the bottom. then you'll be able to view all of them for rudy. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From dmah at shaw.ca Fri Nov 2 00:31:58 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Fri Nov 2 00:31:58 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: <002e01c1633f$1faff800$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> from "Michele Foster" at Nov 01, 2001 08:38:48 PM Message-ID: <200111020632.XAA03885@alice.monkeyland.ca> Michele Foster writes: > No results for .jeff (under .jeffrey instead), djc, matt ? :( Only > 4 for isaac ? Like Matt pointed out, if you post to thelist from an address other than the one that you are signed up to evolt.org with, it won't match since I'm only checking matched userid's. Yeah, I was lazy and didn't try searching by name. Even if I did that wouldn't guarantee that all the tips would be found. For instance, if my profile name is "Dean S. Mah" it wouldn't match tips from "Dean Mah" if a searched by exact phrase or AND search. An OR search would return all tips by people named Dean or Mah. > but, how do I get to view past the first 1-10 ? Yeah, as Jeff pointed out, I screwed up. I'll fix that. Dean From dmah at shaw.ca Fri Nov 2 00:36:49 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Fri Nov 2 00:36:49 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: from ".jeff" at Nov 01, 2001 05:49:55 PM Message-ID: <200111020636.XAA03910@alice.monkeyland.ca> .jeff writes: > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: Michele Foster > > > > No results for .jeff (under .jeffrey instead), djc, > > matt ? :( Only 4 for isaac ? > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > yeah, i noticed that too. :( That's a problem with thelist parsing script. It arbitrarily grabs a userid associated with the e-mail address. .jeff and .jeffrey are both registered with jeff%40members.evolt.org. The script looks like it's taking the latest registration. I can write a script to fix that up. I'll take the one with the latest last login. > too bad those urls couldn't be something more like: > > http://lists.evolt.org/tips/search/?userid=20 > > oh well, all in good time. I might be able to do this. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > but, how do I get to view past the first 1-10 ? > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > the userid needs to be added to the pageresults bit at the bottom. then > you'll be able to view all of them for rudy. Yup. I'll fix that too. Dean From dmah at shaw.ca Fri Nov 2 00:42:05 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Fri Nov 2 00:42:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: from "isaac" at Nov 02, 2001 12:03:32 PM Message-ID: <200111020642.XAA03962@alice.monkeyland.ca> I added a [What are tips?] link to the user profile page. Let me know if you want the wording changed. I linked it to thelist guidelines. Dean isaac writes: > can someone add (perhaps in brackets) a link to a definition of tips > (probably currently within the list guidelines doc)? From jeff at members.evolt.org Fri Nov 2 00:43:15 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Fri Nov 2 00:43:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: <200111020636.XAA03910@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: dean, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Dean Mah > > It arbitrarily grabs a userid associated with the e-mail > address. .jeff and .jeffrey are both registered with > jeff%40members.evolt.org. The script looks like it's > taking the latest registration. > > I can write a script to fix that up. I'll take the one > with the latest last login. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< that'd be the solution. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > too bad those urls couldn't be something more like: > > > > http://lists.evolt.org/tips/search/?userid=20 > > > I might be able to do this. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< naw, don't sweat it for now. i'd rather see other things addressed first. i don't wanna see urls like that for *just* the tips search engine. it'd be alot better to have them throughout the tips application and list archives as well. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From dmah at shaw.ca Fri Nov 2 00:51:46 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Fri Nov 2 00:51:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: <002e01c1633f$1faff800$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> from "Michele Foster" at Nov 01, 2001 08:38:48 PM Message-ID: <200111020651.XAA04002@alice.monkeyland.ca> Fixed. And can I just say, damn rudy, you have a lot of tips to your credit. Dean Michele Foster writes: > 191 for Rudy at: > http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/search/index.html?userid=20 > > but, how do I get to view past the first 1-10 ? From jeff at members.evolt.org Fri Nov 2 01:21:55 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Fri Nov 2 01:21:55 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: <200111020651.XAA04002@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: dean, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Dean Mah > > Fixed. And can I just say, damn rudy, you have a lot > of tips to your credit. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< you need to replace &, <, >, and " on the tip synopsis on the tip listings pages with their equivalent html character entity. otherwise the html gets rendered/parsed. assuming your tip synopsis is in a variable called tip_body, the replace would look like this: #ReplaceList(tip_body, "&,<,>,""", "&,<,>,"")# http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/search/index.html?userid=20&opt ion=all&tid=-1&startrow=11&maxrows=10 notice the javascript error you get when visiting the url above? it's coming from the 17th tip on the page. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From webguru at vsnl.net Fri Nov 2 01:23:43 2001 From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon) Date: Fri Nov 2 01:23:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] Site backups In-Reply-To: <20011101181500.4ABDE943@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102124848.00a994f0@203.197.12.4> I'm just curious. What's our disaster management and recovery policy regarding evolt.org code, lists, etc.? (sorry for sounding so CMM-ish). For example, is the site's HTML code/CMS code/server config. documentation/db schema etc. archived somewhere so that in case the server explodes or there's a fire (hopefully won't happen), there's a way of recovering it? Ditto with the list of evolt subscribers for thelist, thesite, theforum, etc. I remember that A List Apart's subscriber base got wiped out when they had major problems with their web hosting provider. That killed a well-known mailing list with a few thousand subscribers. Wouldn't want something similar to happen to us :( I'm sure someone like Martin will now chime in with standard corporate policies regarding data storage, offsite backups, etc. ;) Regards, Madhu <<< * >>> Madhu Menon User Experience Consultant e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com From dmah at shaw.ca Fri Nov 2 07:49:38 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Fri Nov 2 07:49:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: from ".jeff" at Nov 01, 2001 11:23:35 PM Message-ID: <200111021349.GAA00880@alice.monkeyland.ca> Okay, I've added this. For some reason I thought that the messages had the characters escaped when they were stored in the database. I guess I changed that; might've been because the ColorCode.cfm didn't work because of it. Thanks, Dean .jeff writes: > #ReplaceList(tip_body, "&,<,>,""", "&,<,>,"")# From dmah at shaw.ca Fri Nov 2 07:54:04 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Fri Nov 2 07:54:04 2001 Subject: [thesite] Concern: Tips on members pages Message-ID: <200111021354.GAA00898@alice.monkeyland.ca> Last night I was thinking about thecode we put on Sourceforge and the changes that I've added for the tip harvester. I've linked from leo to weo which is fine. But should we be linking from weo to leo? If the evolt.org CMS is a standalone application, do we want to bind it to the mailing list stuff. Should we mark my code with application specific comments? A conditional switch around it? Or should we take it out? Dean From djc at starkmedia.com Fri Nov 2 09:35:36 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Nov 2 09:35:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] Site backups References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102124848.00a994f0@203.197.12.4> Message-ID: <3BE2BD6D.8080605@starkmedia.com> about once a month i gzip a copy of everything important(lists, DB, code) and scoot it over to a directory on Ron Dormans server in virginia its nothing super hardcore, but would get us by in a jam.. ALA's shit.. i never understood that situation.. how could everything just get 'wiped out' ya know? besides, i'm hosting evolt not some anonymous webhost :) Evolt.org - Enterprise expectations on a non-existant budget :) .djc. Madhu Menon wrote: > I'm just curious. What's our disaster management and recovery policy > regarding evolt.org code, lists, etc.? > (sorry for sounding so CMM-ish). > > For example, is the site's HTML code/CMS code/server config. > documentation/db schema etc. archived somewhere so that in case the > server explodes or there's a fire (hopefully won't happen), there's a > way of recovering it? > > Ditto with the list of evolt subscribers for thelist, thesite, theforum, > etc. > > I remember that A List Apart's subscriber base got wiped out when they > had major problems with their web hosting provider. That killed a > well-known mailing list with a few thousand subscribers. Wouldn't want > something similar to happen to us :( From dmah at shaw.ca Fri Nov 2 10:05:54 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Fri Nov 2 10:05:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] Tips on members page? In-Reply-To: from ".jeff" at Nov 01, 2001 10:44:56 PM Message-ID: <200111021606.JAA01308@alice.monkeyland.ca> Okay, I have changed the userid associated with the tip to be the latest last login. I'll leave the URL alone as well. I tried playing with it a bit but I don't fully understand how things are being passed in through the URL. Throw it on the next CodeFest's todo list. Dean .jeff writes: > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > From: Dean Mah > > > > It arbitrarily grabs a userid associated with the e-mail > > address. .jeff and .jeffrey are both registered with > > jeff%40members.evolt.org. The script looks like it's > > taking the latest registration. > > > > I can write a script to fix that up. I'll take the one > > with the latest last login. > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > that'd be the solution. From mwarden at mattwarden.com Fri Nov 2 14:35:28 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Fri Nov 2 14:35:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] Concern: Tips on members pages In-Reply-To: <200111021354.GAA00898@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 2, Dean Mah had something to say about [thesite] Concern: Tips on... >I've linked from leo to weo which is fine. But should we be linking >from weo to leo? If the evolt.org CMS is a standalone application, do >we want to bind it to the mailing list stuff. Should we mark my code >with application specific comments? A conditional switch around it? >Or should we take it out? Actually, that's one of the main reasons I said "link" rather than to go with the original idea of a query listing tips. Regardless, this is for us. it's a custom cms. If we get too far into generalizing it, it won't fit our needs as well. That said, we can certainly keep it in mind and try to find ways of accomplishing what we want with little effect to thecode.sf.net project. IOW, they can comment out the link ;-) -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From mwarden at mattwarden.com Fri Nov 2 21:50:45 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Fri Nov 2 21:50:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] scrub them data! Message-ID: anyone else in need of a good cleanin? select tip_id, attrib_author from thetips where lower(attrib_author) like '%warden%' update thetips set author_id=65 where lower(attrib_author) like '%warden%'; select author_id, attrib_author from thetips where lower(attrib_author) like '%jeff%' select author_id, attrib_author from thetips where lower(attrib_author) like '%.jeff%'; select author_id, attrib_author from thetips where lower(attrib_author) like '%.jeff%' or lower(attrib_author) like '%howden%'; update thetips set author_id=15 where lower(attrib_author) like '%.jeff%' or lower(attrib_author) like '%howden%'; select author_id, attrib_author from thetips where lower(attrib_author) like '%djc%' or lower(attrib_author) like '%cody%'; update thetips set author_id=5 where lower(attrib_author) like '%djc%' or lower(attrib_author) like '%cody%'; just went through making sure i could single out at least most of the tips by an auther without including other peoples' tips. then updated the author_id to that user's userid so that it will show up in dean's list (The Dean's List?). Rather than continuing to try to guess how to identify each person (as you can see, I had some trouble getting all of .jeff's in) and trying to think of who might need this, I figured I'd ask. Anyone? -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From mnickel at www.llamacom.com Sat Nov 3 01:42:39 2001 From: mnickel at www.llamacom.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Sat Nov 3 01:42:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update Message-ID: I've made another update to the design document for UEUE. http://members.evolt.org/mnickel and click on the v.0.2 document Here's in interesting question. It's kinda directed at Dan, but really for any Apache skillz personage. If I where to access the URL for a PHP page, is it possible to rewrite/remove cookies, that are being passed from the browser to the webserver, from within Apache before the request is passed through to the PHP page/engine? Basically this would be some type of handler configured in httpd.conf... Any ideas? Mark From jeff at members.evolt.org Sat Nov 3 01:58:45 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Sat Nov 3 01:58:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: mark, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Mark Nickel > > I've made another update to the design document for > UEUE. > > http://members.evolt.org/mnickel and click on the v.0.2 > document ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i've read and understand it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If I where to access the URL for a PHP page, is it > possible to rewrite/remove cookies, that are being > passed from the browser to the webserver, from within > Apache before the request is passed through to the > PHP page/engine? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i know where you're going with this (having read v.0.2 above) and have some concerns. it's not just server-side scripts you have to worry about when it comes to cookies. you have to concern yourself with javascript as well as it can set and read cookies too. i think the only way you're going to get around this problem is to either kill the cookie entirely when the request is made to a user account or to not have m.e.o. participate in ueue at all. i don't know how possible the former is. the latter isn't a very attractive solution at all in my opinion. just thought i'd weigh in, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From martin at members.evolt.org Sat Nov 3 17:35:59 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sat Nov 3 17:35:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] Site backups Message-ID: Madhu Menon wrote on 2/11/01 8:23 am >I'm sure someone like Martin will now chime in with standard corporate >policies regarding data storage, offsite backups, etc. ;) wha? Me? Just that we need that stuff. Backing up to Ron's server sounds peachy. Dan wrote: >Evolt.org - Enterprise expectations on a non-existant budget :) all goes to show that doing stuff right needn't cost an arm and a leg. Just a bit of thought. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Sat Nov 3 18:27:08 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sat Nov 3 18:27:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: [Theforum] Re: [thasite] voting application Message-ID: Daniel J. Cody wrote on 1/11/01 5:34 pm >> I know you have little interest in using a voting method to ascertain entry >> to privileged status. But I've not seen an effective alternative. > > >*shrug* i just don't want people to be intimidated or afraid of >anything.. a vote suggests competition or 'Absolute Review' of the work >someones done. maybe its just me though and people will be cool with >that if we go that direction I think it'd depend on how it were presented. If it were presented as a blackball fraternity kinda thing, then it would be intimidatory. But if it were presented (and run) as an opportunity to validate how great people think you are, then it's quite different. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Sat Nov 3 18:46:25 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sat Nov 3 18:46:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application Message-ID: Daniel J. Cody wrote on 31/10/01 6:55 am >w.e.o is bloated enough IMO for a CMS. feh - you've not seen Vignette EAP then ;-) >to clarify, a CMS that runs on >oracle and uses a URL scheme that isn't easily implemented and only ~3 >people understand. Right, you *are* talking about EAP, sorry! *grin* Sorry, sore point. We're having performance issues like you wouldn't believe at the moment. That's what happens when clients choose their own solution rather than the one you proposed to them. And then demand a working site in a very, very short space of time. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Sat Nov 3 18:48:32 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sat Nov 3 18:48:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] voting application Message-ID: isaac wrote on 31/10/01 8:03 am >Whether it's integrated within the CMS itself is up for further debate >obviously. (On that issue, I don't mind either way). How are the surveys and questions going to be created, edited, signed off, launched and archived? It's a CMS set of jobs. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From martin at members.evolt.org Sat Nov 3 18:52:50 2001 From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin) Date: Sat Nov 3 18:52:50 2001 Subject: [thesite] Priv Levels, Voting App. and UEUE Message-ID: Michele Foster wrote on 1/11/01 12:31 am > >d.e.o. >Simon should have God privs on this app .. he wrote it and he maintains it >One day, others may volunteer to help ease the load and to administer >certain groups (DMOZ style), and these individuals would have Admin privs. > >f.e.o. >Matt should have (and does?) God privs on this app. >Not sure who is going to help Admin the application, i.e. review/approve >articles. If it will in fact be the same members that review/approve >articles on w.e.o. or not. I don't see that it has to be the same. > >a.e.o. >Gets even more complicated .. as there's an extra Priv level in there that >doesn't exist on w.e.o. The Priv levels for a.e.o. are User, God, >Developer. The User's on a.e.o. are (at this time) hand-selected and do >include all of Admin plus several theSite members who participate in various >projects for evolt. I have "God" Privs on a.e.o. but no where else. >Actually, there is a fourth Priv Level implied on a.e.o. that being "Admin" >which allows Admins to answer emails (however, I'm not sure there is a coded >restriction in place there.) Sounds like (and tell me if you're wrong) what you mean is having a role-based priv system, not a hierarchy. Sounds sensible to me, on all kinds of levels. Cheers Martin _______________________________________________ email: martin at easyweb.co.uk PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB martin at members.evolt.org snailmail: 30 Shandon Place tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985 Edinburgh, url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk Scotland From michele at wordpro.on.ca Sun Nov 4 19:31:25 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Sun Nov 4 19:31:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] Email Probs ? Message-ID: <013d01c1659a$0b7a06c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Hi everyone ..... Seems to be some mail probs the past couple days. Several messages never arrived here from thelist and a couple from thesite. Is it just me? (Did the cats delete my mail when I wasn't home? ;) Mich From djc at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 11:04:02 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Nov 5 11:04:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BE6C6AB.2070300@members.evolt.org> why isn't it attractive to you? m.e.o really doesn't need to participate in ueue as it doesn't offer anything that would need a persons credentials for.. there are really only 3 pages on m.e.o that people ever see, two of them are 'rules' pages and the last one is a input your username and password here page. it might be a bonus for people signing up for m.e.o accounts to have those auto-filled, but its not critical .djc. .jeff wrote: > i think the only way you're going to get around this problem is to either > kill the cookie entirely when the request is made to a user account or to > not have m.e.o. participate in ueue at all. i don't know how possible the > former is. the latter isn't a very attractive solution at all in my > opinion. From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 11:23:04 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 11:23:04 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BE6C6AB.2070300@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > why isn't it attractive to you? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< because i think there are good things to be gained by authenticating the user when visiting m.e.o. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > m.e.o really doesn't need to participate in ueue as it > doesn't offer anything that would need a persons > credentials for.. > > there are really only 3 pages on m.e.o that people ever > see, two of them are 'rules' pages and the last one is > a input your username and password here page. it might > be a bonus for people signing up for m.e.o accounts > to have those auto-filled, but its not critical ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sounds contradictory to me. if we're asking for them to input username and password then it sounds like we're asking for credentials. the fact that we currently only have a few pages that are m.e.o.-root specific isn't the point. what if we decided to offer a bunch more services via the m.e.o. space that required authentication? this is all a moot point though until we can figure out if we can even kill cookies prior to the requested template handling the request. my feeling is that we won't be able to. just my 2c, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Nov 5 11:31:30 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Nov 5 11:31:30 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BE6CD1B.5070606@starkmedia.com> i'm sorry for not putting that in the correct context. i should have said, 'theres nothing except that one page that credentials are required for'. making people type in two pieces of information shouldn't be a showstopper for UEUE. if we decide to add new services to m.e.o. then we could address it at that time again, *if and when that happens*. unified logins are a big problem for evolt. we need to look past the 'what if' and 'if we ever' scenerios. .djc. .jeff wrote: > sounds contradictory to me. if we're asking for them to input username and > password then it sounds like we're asking for credentials. the fact that we > currently only have a few pages that are m.e.o.-root specific isn't the > point. what if we decided to offer a bunch more services via the m.e.o. > space that required authentication? > > this is all a moot point though until we can figure out if we can even kill > cookies prior to the requested template handling the request. my feeling is > that we won't be able to. > > just my 2c, From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 11:43:53 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 11:43:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BE6CD1B.5070606@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > i'm sorry for not putting that in the correct context. > i should have said, 'theres nothing except that one > page that credentials are required for'. making people > type in two pieces of information shouldn't be a > showstopper for UEUE. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i agree. for now i think the big showstopper is whether or not the ueue cookie can be read from the m.e.o. accounts. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > if we decide to add new services to m.e.o. then we > could address it at that time again, *if and when that > happens*. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< again, i agree. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > unified logins are a big problem for evolt. we need to > look past the 'what if' and 'if we ever' scenerios. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< once again, i agree. it's important to try take a look at all the implications before implementation though. if unified login is all this is for (not unified session state), then i've got a question for you. why don't we simply query the users table based on the user's persistent login cookie? that would sure save all the hassles of the various browser bugs regarding redirects, users that disable cookies, building something complex and complicated like ueue, etc. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Nov 5 11:49:25 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Nov 5 11:49:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BE6D14E.8080404@starkmedia.com> sorry, should have written, "unified logins and sessions are a big problem for evolt" to answer your question though, that would require giving every *.e.o site access to the live DB and user info, which is what we're trying to move away from. in the perfect world, we'd like to give approved sites that 'we' may not have control over(like deo) indirect access to our user base without giving them direct access to our actual live database. .djc. .jeff wrote: > if unified login is all this is for (not unified session state), then i've > got a question for you. why don't we simply query the users table based on > the user's persistent login cookie? that would sure save all the hassles of > the various browser bugs regarding redirects, users that disable cookies, > building something complex and complicated like ueue, etc. From djc at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 12:16:05 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Nov 5 12:16:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help Message-ID: <3BE6D78E.3060006@members.evolt.org> on test.evolt.org there is now the functionality to choose a default stylesheet(or 'theme') to view evolt in. before we push this feature to the live site, does anyone with CSS/HTML skillz have time to run though the stylesheets and make sure they're comparable to our main one?( http://evolt.org/evolt/isaac.css ) they're : afistapart.css evoltoldschool.css granite.css latte.css easter.css fresh_tchai.css isaac.css mocchatchaino.css all found at http://test.evolt.org/evolt/style/stylename.css once thats done, i think we can push the current t.e.o site - most of which was done at the last codefest - to live. unless anyone has outstanding issues or problems? jeff, was that you that finished up the stylesheets stuff? if so, thanks! .djc. From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 12:24:00 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 12:24:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help In-Reply-To: <3BE6D78E.3060006@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > on test.evolt.org there is now the functionality to > choose a default stylesheet(or 'theme') to view > evolt in. before we push this feature to the live site, > does anyone with CSS/HTML skillz have time to run though > the stylesheets and make sure they're comparable to our > main one? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'd just like to say that i think we need to think about whether or not we want styles for the links in pagetitle1 and pagetitle2. if you change to the evoltoldschool stylesheet and view an article you'll see that the category name completely disappears in the blue block top left just below the date (pagetitle1). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > once thats done, i think we can push the current t.e.o > site - most of which was done at the last codefest - > to live. unless anyone has outstanding issues or > problems? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm cool with that. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > jeff, was that you that finished up the stylesheets > stuff? if so, thanks! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yeah, i thought i sent something in to this list mentioning that and a couple other things i did. either that or i finished it up when i was going through t.e.o. and optimizing all the latest changes. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From dmah at shaw.ca Mon Nov 5 12:38:46 2001 From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah) Date: Mon Nov 5 12:38:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help In-Reply-To: <3BE6D78E.3060006@members.evolt.org> from "Daniel J. Cody" at Nov 05, 2001 12:16:46 PM Message-ID: <200111051839.LAA01972@alice.monkeyland.ca> Just my question on whether we want to include a link from weo to leo. If someone downloads the source and tries to use it for themselves, this link won't make sense. How are we handling these dependencies now? Dean Daniel J. Cody writes: > once thats done, i think we can push the current t.e.o site - most > of which was done at the last codefest - to live. unless anyone has > outstanding issues or problems? From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Nov 5 15:38:02 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Nov 5 15:38:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help References: <3BE6D78E.3060006@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: <004901c16642$8693ea80$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Dan, I'll do them ... but, I'm lazy ;) Can you drop them into my meo account please. Can I pick one or two others to add too? ;) Thanks, Mich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" | on test.evolt.org there is now the functionality to choose a default | stylesheet(or 'theme') to view evolt in. before we push this feature to | the live site, does anyone with CSS/HTML skillz have time to run though | the stylesheets and make sure they're comparable to our main one?( | http://evolt.org/evolt/isaac.css ) | From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Nov 5 16:18:24 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Nov 5 16:18:24 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help References: Message-ID: <3BE7105A.7070602@starkmedia.com> ok, someone else will have to make the calls on the pagetitle things. lists kinda went wacky this weekend.. one of the relay servers shit itself and i just got done rebuilding it.. messages went to some and not others for all lists - i'm resending the stuff that didn't go through again now .djc. .jeff wrote: > i'd just like to say that i think we need to think about whether or not we > want styles for the links in pagetitle1 and pagetitle2. if you change to > the evoltoldschool stylesheet and view an article you'll see that the > category name completely disappears in the blue block top left just below > the date (pagetitle1). > yeah, i thought i sent something in to this list mentioning that and a > couple other things i did. either that or i finished it up when i was going > through t.e.o. and optimizing all the latest changes. From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Nov 5 16:43:41 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Nov 5 16:43:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help References: Message-ID: <009d01c1664b$b4c87160$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: ".jeff" | dan, | | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | > From: Daniel J. Cody | > | > on test.evolt.org there is now the functionality to | > choose a default stylesheet(or 'theme') to view | > evolt in. before we push this feature to the live site, | > does anyone with CSS/HTML skillz have time to run though | > the stylesheets and make sure they're comparable to our | > main one? | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | i'd just like to say that i think we need to think about whether or not we | want styles for the links in pagetitle1 and pagetitle2. if you change to | the evoltoldschool stylesheet and view an article you'll see that the | category name completely disappears in the blue block top left just below | the date (pagetitle1). Yeah, cos its a link in blue on blue background. I'll fix it when I do all of em. I'm thinking to just change the background colour of the blue box to a lighter shade of dark grey. That blue is just jumping out too much. That style is used throughout. Looks like we're missing a class too.. I'll have to check which one's missing and add it. I'd prefer not to add any more styles, but keep within the same theme of a lighter shade of colour for the blocks (like on weo now). Mich From djc at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 16:52:17 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Nov 5 16:52:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help References: <200111051839.LAA01972@alice.monkeyland.ca> Message-ID: <3BE7184B.5070206@members.evolt.org> sorry, missed that me thinks.. ya, lets include it in there and make a note of it in the CHANGELOG file.. jeff, could you update that too with relevant info about what youv'e done since the last revision? .djc. Dean Mah wrote: > Just my question on whether we want to include a link from weo to leo. > If someone downloads the source and tries to use it for themselves, > this link won't make sense. How are we handling these dependencies > now? > > Dean > > > Daniel J. Cody writes: > > >>once thats done, i think we can push the current t.e.o site - most >>of which was done at the last codefest - to live. unless anyone has >>outstanding issues or problems? From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 17:31:00 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 17:31:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help In-Reply-To: <009d01c1664b$b4c87160$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: michele, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Michele Foster > > | i'd just like to say that i think we need to think > | about whether or not we want styles for the links > | in pagetitle1 and pagetitle2. if you change to the > | evoltoldschool stylesheet and view an article you'll > | see that the category name completely disappears in > | the blue block top left just below the date > | (pagetitle1). > > Yeah, cos its a link in blue on blue background. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yes, my point exactly. unfortunately we're going to run into this problem again -- especially when we allow people to create their own stylesheets. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I'll fix it when I do all of em. I'm thinking to just > change the background colour of the blue box to a > lighter shade of dark grey. That blue is just jumping > out too much. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< hold on there sister. you can't just go changing someone else's stylesheet. this particular one that has the problem i mentioned is a redo of the original evolt.org site design. changing the colors isn't the solution. that's why i brought up the idea of applying a class or something to the links within those two boxes (pagetitle1 & pagetitle2). maybe something like this: .pagetitle1 a:link { /* blah */ } or like this: a.pagetitle1:link { /* blah */ } ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I'd prefer not to add any more styles, but keep within > the same theme of a lighter shade of colour for the > blocks (like on weo now). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< again, like above, no way. you can't mess with the colors. what are we going to do when we encounter this problem again when we allow users to create their own stylesheets? i say we address the problem right now rather than the symptom. sorry, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Nov 5 17:37:41 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Nov 5 17:37:41 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 5, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update >if unified login is all this is for (not unified session state), then i've >got a question for you. why don't we simply query the users table based on >the user's persistent login cookie? that would sure save all the hassles of >the various browser bugs regarding redirects, users that disable cookies, >building something complex and complicated like ueue, etc. it's for unified login, but one of the reasons to do that is to close off meo accounts' ability to query the user database(s). If all there is is the persistent cookie, anyone with an meo account can query the database for the persistent cookie and then login as whomever they want on weo. right? -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 17:39:09 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 17:39:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help In-Reply-To: <3BE7105A.7070602@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > .jeff wrote: > > > i'd just like to say that i think we need to think > > about whether or not we want styles for the links in > > pagetitle1 and pagetitle2. if you change to the > > evoltoldschool stylesheet and view an article you'll > > see that the category name completely disappears in > > the blue block top left just below the date > > (pagetitle1). > > ok, someone else will have to make the calls on the > pagetitle things. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< adrian? what are your thoughts? thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 17:49:30 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 17:49:30 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BE6D14E.8080404@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > sorry, should have written, "unified logins and > sessions are a big problem for evolt" ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no problem. i'm not trying to pick apart what you're saying. i'm trying to analyze the problem(s) and potential solution(s). right now i'm not sure i see how ueue is going to solve the unified sessions problem though unless we implement some sort of database-backed session management (yuck) which brings up back to having to give database access to all the subsites. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > to answer your question though, that would require > giving every *.e.o site access to the live DB and > user info, which is what we're trying to move away > from. in the perfect world, we'd like to give approved > sites that 'we' may not have control over(like deo) > indirect access to our user base without giving them > direct access to our actual live database. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no offense to anyone involved, but if the site is under our domain/logo/namesake/whatever then we should have some level of control over the site or damn well better trust the individual responsible for said site. is that too much to ask? maybe unified logins is more of a social issue than a technical one? thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Nov 5 17:52:34 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Nov 5 17:52:34 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help References: Message-ID: <00ee01c16655$54c90cc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Jeff, | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | yes, my point exactly. unfortunately we're going to run into this problem | again -- especially when we allow people to create their own stylesheets. | | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< If we get to that part ... we'll see if the pre-existing ones are enough or if people start to want to create their own. | > I'll fix it when I do all of em. I'm thinking to just | > change the background colour of the blue box to a | > lighter shade of dark grey. That blue is just jumping | > out too much. | ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< | | hold on there sister. you can't just go changing someone else's stylesheet. Why not? If they haven't defined/modifed an element, then it should be changed. (See below, I've agreed to add the other elements.) There are incorrectly or not at all defined elements on a few of the CSS's that Dan's selected. Hence why someone needs to review them and make sure the elements have all been defined, and/or that the page is readable. If the original creator of the CSS wants to update it now, that's fine with me. Looking at the same style sheet, the class for "side" is the same as "main" which, if you look at this article: http://test.evolt.org/article/User_Defined_Window_Targeting_w_JavaScript/17/ 16286/index.html It is displayed not as intended. So, what should I do in this case? Everything is still readable. | this particular one that has the problem i mentioned is a redo of the | original evolt.org site design. changing the colors isn't the solution. | that's why i brought up the idea of applying a class or something to the | links within those two boxes (pagetitle1 & pagetitle2). maybe something | like this: | | .pagetitle1 a:link { /* blah */ } | | or like this: | | a.pagetitle1:link { /* blah */ } Will use this .. as its consistent with what's been used in the past. Also need to add: a.pagetitle1:visited a.pagetitle1:hover But, I still don't see why we can't change the colour of the box, i.e. PageTitle1, since as a shade of "Main" it would be consistent with the other CSS's we're using. I think all the CSS's should maintain some sort of consistency among themselves. So, the question becomes, how close do we want to keep with the "theme" that we have already for the CSS files for evolt.org? | | what are we going to do when we encounter this problem again when we allow | users to create their own stylesheets? i say we address the problem right | now rather than the symptom. That's fine, I'll add the three new classes as indicated above. Actually, I'm sure it would be a lot better if Isaac or Adrian did this anyway, rather than me. Michele From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 18:33:09 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 18:33:09 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help In-Reply-To: <00ee01c16655$54c90cc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: michele, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Michele Foster > > | yes, my point exactly. unfortunately we're going to > | run into this problem again -- especially when we > | allow people to create their own stylesheets. > > If we get to that part ... we'll see if the pre-existing > ones are enough or if people start to want to create > their own. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< trust me -- it'll be *when*, not if. better to address these issues now rather than later. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > | hold on there sister. you can't just go changing > | someone else's stylesheet. > > Why not? If they haven't defined/modifed an element, > then it should be changed. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< you can make sure the stylesheets are correct as far as the classes and css validity. however, you can't go changing colors, fonts, font sizes, that sort of thing. understand the distinction? the reason it's so important with this particular one is that it's a rendition of our original design which happened to use that blue color across the top with bright green links in it. whether or not it's too much for the eyes or not is not the issue. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Looking at the same style sheet, the class for "side" is > the same as "main" which, if you look at this article: > http://test.evolt.org/article/blah/17/16286/index.html > > It is displayed not as intended. So, what should I do > in this case? Everything is still readable. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< the article looks fine to me. the fact that the little example widgets don't have a different background color behind them is moot (which i'm guessing is what you're basing the "displayed not as intended" remark). i simply need to apply some consistent styling to both the table cell and radio button to get around the issue where the radio button takes the background color of the page itself. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Will use this .. as its consistent with what's been used > in the past. > > Also need to add: > > a.pagetitle1:visited > a.pagetitle1:hover ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< and a.pagetitle1:active, a.pagetitle2:link, a.pagetitle2:visited, a.pagetitle2:hover, a.pagetitle2:active. fwiw, the evoltoldschool.css file needs to have the colors for all pagetitle1 link psuedo-classes set to the green color (#66ff66 i think). it's not as simple as adding them though. if they're added, the html for the links in those sections needs to be updated to use the classes appropriately. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > But, I still don't see why we can't change the colour of > the box, i.e. PageTitle1, since as a shade of "Main" it > would be consistent with the other CSS's we're using. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< the color of the box can't be changed because it's an element of design in the old site which is what is trying to be mimicked. maintaining the stylesheet author's look and feel is more important than trying to create some sort of consistency with previous stylesheets that have been created and used. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I think all the CSS's should maintain some sort of > consistency among themselves. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< again, that's not for us to decide. it's up to the author of the stylesheet. it's up to us to try to account for these sorts of things and build this as flexible as necessary to accommodate them. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > So, the question becomes, how close do we want to keep > with the "theme" that we have already for the CSS files > for evolt.org? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< these styles have nothing to do with any "themes" that have been developed in the past and used on the various sub-sites. in fact, these are sort of a departure from that into a world of uniqueness and creativity. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 19:02:04 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Nov 5 19:02:04 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BE737B5.9040100@members.evolt.org> .jeff wrote: > no problem. i'm not trying to pick apart what you're saying. i'm trying to > analyze the problem(s) and potential solution(s). right now i'm not sure i > see how ueue is going to solve the unified sessions problem though unless we > implement some sort of database-backed session management (yuck) which > brings up back to having to give database access to all the subsites. the problem is we don't want(and shouldnt rely on) every subsite to have access to the user db, right? ueue is going to solve that problem by providing a single access point to the live user DB and passing that info along to the subsite. > no offense to anyone involved, but if the site is under our > domain/logo/namesake/whatever then we should have some level of control over > the site or damn well better trust the individual responsible for said site. > is that too much to ask? > > maybe unified logins is more of a social issue than a technical one? we will trust the people running the subsite, 'we' wont always have control over it though. and it might not always be practical for a new subsite to have direct access to the DB. example: its hosted somewhere other than the network the oracle box happens to be sitting on. .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Nov 5 19:07:22 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Nov 5 19:07:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help References: Message-ID: <3BE738DA.4060700@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: > yes, my point exactly. unfortunately we're going to run into this problem > again -- especially when we allow people to create their own stylesheets. maybe its just my lack of understanding of CSS, but if people create their own stylesheets, they'll be able to see that it looks wrong and fix it, no? > hold on there sister. you can't just go changing someone else's stylesheet. > this particular one that has the problem i mentioned is a redo of the > original evolt.org site design. changing the colors isn't the solution. if no one else jumps up to change and validate these stylesheets, particularly the person who did it, i think michele or whoever volunteers their time to do so should change them > what are we going to do when we encounter this problem again when we allow > users to create their own stylesheets? i say we address the problem right > now rather than the symptom. again, if people choose their own stylesheets, won't it be up to them to decide whether or not it looks ok? maybe i'm missing something, but they're only going to be allowed to change the stylesheet values we have decided on - which are pulled froma pre-defined list in the DB - right? .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Mon Nov 5 19:11:16 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Mon Nov 5 19:11:16 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help References: Message-ID: <3BE739D2.3000300@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: >>Why not? If they haven't defined/modifed an element, >>then it should be changed. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > you can make sure the stylesheets are correct as far as the classes and css > validity. however, you can't go changing colors, fonts, font sizes, that > sort of thing. understand the distinction? who is going to change them then? >>I think all the CSS's should maintain some sort of >>consistency among themselves. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > again, that's not for us to decide. it's up to the author of the > stylesheet. it's up to us to try to account for these sorts of things and > build this as flexible as necessary to accommodate them. i thought you just said we *should* remain consistant? .djc. From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 19:46:06 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 19:46:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help In-Reply-To: <3BE738DA.4060700@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > > yes, my point exactly. unfortunately we're going to > > run into this problem again -- especially when we > > allow people to create their own stylesheets. > > maybe its just my lack of understanding of CSS, but if > people create their own stylesheets, they'll be able to > see that it looks wrong and fix it, no? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sure, but that's not the crux of the problem. the problem is that the styles currently assume that the same color as the links in the main content area won't be the same color that the will be desired color for the bar across the top (pagetitle1 & pagetitle2). in that regard, our current stylesheet is "broken". it requires a very simple fix though. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > if no one else jumps up to change and validate these > stylesheets, particularly the person who did it, i > think michele or whoever volunteers their time to do > so should change them ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< again, correct css is one thing. altering fonts, font sizes, and colors is a completely different animal. it's similar to fixing spelling errors versus rewording an author's sentence. one can be done easily without mistaking what was meant (the misspelling or the css correctness). the other is subjective and open to all sorts of false assumption on the desired effect by the author (sentence structure or fonts, font sizes, colors). ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > again, if people choose their own stylesheets, won't it > be up to them to decide whether or not it looks ok? > maybe i'm missing something, but they're only going to > be allowed to change the stylesheet values we have > decided on - which are pulled froma pre-defined list in > the DB - right? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yes, that's correct. that's why i'm making more of a point to point out this problem. if the author of a future stylesheet happens to want to use the same color as the background color in the top bar as the color for the links in the main body then we'll have this problem again. i think that's a pretty serious limitation. however, the fix is *really* simple. can someone else weigh in here and tell me if i'm making any sense at all? thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 19:48:21 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 19:48:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help In-Reply-To: <3BE739D2.3000300@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > > you can make sure the stylesheets are correct as far > > as the classes and css validity. however, you can't > > go changing colors, fonts, font sizes, that sort of > > thing. understand the distinction? > > who is going to change them then? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i'm saying they shouldn't be changed. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > i thought you just said we *should* remain consistant? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< huh? consistent with regard to what? consistent by making sure all the appropriate classes are in the stylesheet, sure. what sort of consistency are you referring to? thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 19:52:29 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 19:52:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BE737B5.9040100@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > the problem is we don't want(and shouldnt rely on) every > subsite to have access to the user db, right? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< agreed. i think that's ultimately a good thing. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > ueue is going to solve that problem by providing a > single access point to the live user DB and passing > that info along to the subsite. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< a single access point for the login, but not session specific information. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > we will trust the people running the subsite, 'we' wont > always have control over it though. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no? why not? i think there are many reasons why we should make sure that never happens. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > and it might not always be practical for a new subsite > to have direct access to the DB. example: its hosted > somewhere other than the network the oracle box happens > to be sitting on. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< xml data transfer. disconnected subsites aren't a problem. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 19:54:54 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 19:54:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > > why don't we simply query the users table based on the > > user's persistent login cookie? [...] > > it's for unified login, but one of the reasons to do > that is to close off meo accounts' ability to query > the user database(s). If all there is is the > persistent cookie, anyone with an meo account can > query the database for the persistent cookie and > then login as whomever they want on weo. > > right? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sure, but that problem is *way* simple to solve -- username and password on the database access. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Nov 5 20:04:38 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Nov 5 20:04:38 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 5, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update >matt, > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Warden, Matt >> >> > why don't we simply query the users table based on the >> > user's persistent login cookie? [...] >> >> it's for unified login, but one of the reasons to do >> that is to close off meo accounts' ability to query >> the user database(s). If all there is is the >> persistent cookie, anyone with an meo account can >> query the database for the persistent cookie and >> then login as whomever they want on weo. >> >> right? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >sure, but that problem is *way* simple to solve -- username and password on >the database access. Eww. That username and password would be available in the source, eh? We're bound to eventually forget to take out the instances (would be every cfquery tag, no?) where we have the password in the code. And I don't want to ever have to say to a member "yeah you could help out, but i don't want you to see our database password, so no dice." And, if you *don't* say that, I think we get into screening issues. So, IOW, it's *NOT* so easy to solve, IMO. Any restriction of access would have to be done by IP, IMO. And that would be possible with UEUE, assuming it's on a different server (not lists.evolt.org). thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 20:21:17 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Nov 5 20:21:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > We're bound to eventually forget to take out the instances (would be every > cfquery tag, no?) where we have the password in the code. No, you could set both of them in the application.cfm as is usually done with the datasource name. i.e., only need to remove it from one place. > And I don't want to ever have to say to a member "yeah you could help out, > but i don't want you to see our database password, so no dice." And, if > you *don't* say that, I think we get into screening issues. As it is, anyone given access can run a query and grab any password from the db anyway, right? It's one extra level of security with few drawbacks (I'd guess; or is there a performance hit?), so I see no real reason not to add it. If we don't put something like this in place, perhaps we should put a disclaimer on the sign-up form: Don't use any passwords you also use for internet banking, your own server, etc, because anyone with a MEO account can grab passwords from WEO whenever they'd like (is that correct?!). For some, it's commonsense to use a less-critical password for stuff like that, but many people might not think of that. I've not followed the UEUE gear enough to comment on the viability/necessity of that at this stage. isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Nov 5 20:28:45 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Nov 5 20:28:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 6, isaac had something to say about RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update >> And I don't want to ever have to say to a member "yeah you could help out, >> but i don't want you to see our database password, so no dice." And, if >> you *don't* say that, I think we get into screening issues. > >As it is, anyone given access can run a query and grab any password from the >db anyway, right? Yup. THat's the problem we're trying to solve here. Adding a password to the queries just ain't the solution. >It's one extra level of security If by "level" you mean that one must go through one extra step to gain access to our database, then yes. >I've not followed the UEUE gear enough to comment on the viability/necessity >of that at this stage. The benefit of UEUE here is that we could single out only the server with UEUE on it and ONLY allow that server to access the database with member info. Then, problem solved. And it can't be circumvented by looking at our source code. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From michele at wordpro.on.ca Mon Nov 5 20:36:15 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Mon Nov 5 20:36:15 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help References: <3BE738DA.4060700@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: <001201c1666c$32b972c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Ok, sounds to me that we need some changes made to the original (existing) CSS before we can proceed, and then changes made to the HTML on the existing pages. Isaac or Adrian, can you modify the existing CSS to incorporate the changes Jeff has suggested? Then, once that's been done, the actual authors of each of the CSS should go back through them and add the additional classes, make sure the CSS is viewable in as many browsers/operating systems as possible, and validate the CSS files. That should work fine. This way no one person will alter an author's intended colour scheme. Dan, I'll do your Easter one if ya want me too. And any others if the author gives me permission to modify their CSS accordingly. Thanks, Michele From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 20:40:59 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Nov 5 20:40:59 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The benefit of UEUE here is that we could single out only the server with > UEUE on it and ONLY allow that server to access the database with member > info. > > Then, problem solved. And it can't be circumvented by looking at our > source code. How far off is UEUE though? I don't see the problem in throwing the password onto the database temporarily to reduce the risk somewhat. Suddenly you've gone from having *every* single MEO user being able to do anything they like to the database (it's still hard to believe), to it being open to those who've directly participated on thesite and have been entrusted with access, right? isaac -------------------------------------------------------------- triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067 (08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au From isaac at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 20:41:02 2001 From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac) Date: Mon Nov 5 20:41:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help In-Reply-To: <001201c1666c$32b972c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: > Isaac or Adrian, can you modify the existing CSS to incorporate > the changes Jeff has suggested? *points at adrian* it's named isaac.css because the visual styling is mine. the actual implementation is adrian's i think. i wouldn't want to pretend that i'm Mr CSS. :P > Then, once that's been done, the actual authors of each of the > CSS should go > back through them and add the additional classes, make sure the CSS is > viewable in as many browsers/operating systems as possible, and > validate the CSS files. +1 > Dan, I'll do your Easter one if ya want me too. And any others if the > author gives me permission to modify their CSS accordingly. +1 From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Nov 5 20:52:30 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Nov 5 20:52:30 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 6, isaac had something to say about RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update >> The benefit of UEUE here is that we could single out only the server with >> UEUE on it and ONLY allow that server to access the database with member >> info. >> >> Then, problem solved. And it can't be circumvented by looking at our >> source code. > >How far off is UEUE though? Why does that matter? >I don't see the problem in throwing the password onto the database >temporarily to reduce the risk somewhat. Well shit... why don't we take the datasource name, do a bunch of funky shit with it like start out with a numerical value, multiply it by another numerical value, and then convert each into a character so it takes someone a good 10 minutes to figure out what it is? security by obscurity! >Suddenly you've gone from having >*every* single MEO user being able to do anything they like to the database >(it's still hard to believe), to it being open to those who've directly >participated on thesite and have been entrusted with access, right? *shrug* whatever. the people on thesite are the only ones who know about this anyways. so, if you're one for security by obscurity... but, if you wanna go in and add all this, go for it, i guess. teo and feo too, of course... and whereever else there's a query to a member database. rock on, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 21:00:57 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:00:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > > How far off is UEUE though? > > Why does that matter? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< it's called assessing the risk-factor. if it's a couple of days away then it's not worth the effort to plug the existing security hole. if it's a couple of months, then we should probably do something about the existing problem. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > I don't see the problem in throwing the password onto > > the database temporarily to reduce the risk somewhat. > > Well shit... why don't we take the datasource name, do > a bunch of funky shit with it like start out with a > numerical value, multiply it by another numerical value, > and then convert each into a character so it takes > someone a good 10 minutes to figure out what it is? > > security by obscurity! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< dude. now you're just being an immature twit. isaac is *not* suggesting security by obscurity. he's simply saying that a username and password on the live datasource would keep people from doing "bad things", which it will. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > whatever. the people on thesite are the only ones who > know about this anyways. so, if you're one for security > by obscurity... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< again, this is *not* security by obscurity. if that was what we were after we'd simply create a goofy datasource name. this is real security that requires an amount of specific knowledge. besides, don't assume that only thesite knows about this. i seem to recall you not being willing to talk about existing security holes on m.e.o. before because the archives were not only public, but indexed by search engines. i'm not going to sit here and argue with you about it, i have *much* more important things to take care of (more news later). thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 21:03:04 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:03:04 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > > sure, but that problem is *way* simple to solve -- > > username and password on the database access. > > Eww. That username and password would be available in > the source, eh? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< uh, yeah. what's your point? if we can't trust those working on the source then who says we can trust those working ueue? that's not the problem though. out of all the people with access to t.e.o or m.e.o., how many of them have access to w.e.o.? very, very few. the point is that it'll stop anonymous access from m.e.o. accounts that could happen right now. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > We're bound to eventually forget to take out the > instances (would be every cfquery tag, no?) where we > have the password in the code. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< we could variablize it therefore removing the need to alter anything. we can also move the username and password setting files to a separate file that gets included into application.cfm, but never gets moved when the site is taken live. t.e.o.'s datasource could use a different password reducing the number of people with access to w.e.o.'s datasource username/password combination. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > And I don't want to ever have to say to a member "yeah > you could help out, but i don't want you to see our > database password, so no dice." And, if you *don't* say > that, I think we get into screening issues. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< not an issue with t.e.o. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > So, IOW, it's *NOT* so easy to solve, IMO. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sure it is. you're just not willing to look at the obvious. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 21:07:23 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:07:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > > As it is, anyone given access can run a query and > > grab any password from the db anyway, right? > > Yup. THat's the problem we're trying to solve here. > Adding a password to the queries just ain't the > solution. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< user tries to query the live datasource from a m.e.o. account or from t.e.o. and gets an error. user doesn't know the username/password combination for querying. tell me how that isn't a solution. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > It's one extra level of security > > If by "level" you mean that one must go through one > extra step to gain access to our database, then yes. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< if the file with the username and password are on w.e.o., i fail to see how there are *any* steps, short of hacking the box, necessary to access the database. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > The benefit of UEUE here is that we could single out > only the server with UEUE on it and ONLY allow that > server to access the database with member info. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< but ueue isn't the only site that needs access to the user/member info. w.e.o. needs it as well. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Then, problem solved. And it can't be circumvented by > looking at our source code. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no, but it can be circumvented by looking at the source code for ueue. ;p .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Nov 5 21:07:53 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:07:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 5, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update >dude. now you're just being an immature twit. i guess so. >the live datasource would keep people from doing "bad things", which it >will. ok, so, like i said... go ahead. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> whatever. the people on thesite are the only ones who >> know about this anyways. so, if you're one for security >> by obscurity... >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >again, this is *not* security by obscurity. if that was what we were after >we'd simply create a goofy datasource name. this is real security that >requires an amount of specific knowledge. ... that can quickly and easily become public knowledge. >i'm not going to sit here and argue with you about it One wonders why you replied, then. Like I said before, go for it. Just make sure you get teo and feo too. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Nov 5 21:11:17 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:11:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 5, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update >> Eww. That username and password would be available in >> the source, eh? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >uh, yeah. what's your point? > >if we can't trust those working on the source then who says we can trust >those working ueue? that's not the problem though. out of all the people >with access to t.e.o or m.e.o., how many of them have access to w.e.o.? >very, very few. What does access to weo have to do with anything? Or, when dan copies the db over to teo, is there some magical process that changes all the passwords and user information? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> And I don't want to ever have to say to a member "yeah >> you could help out, but i don't want you to see our >> database password, so no dice." And, if you *don't* say >> that, I think we get into screening issues. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >not an issue with t.e.o. ? >you're just not willing to look at the obvious. yup, i guess so. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 21:13:08 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:13:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > > dude. now you're just being an immature twit. > > i guess so. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< and yet you persist. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > the live datasource would keep people from doing "bad > > things", which it will. > > ok, so, like i said... go ahead. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i don't need your approval, nor am i asking for it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > again, this is *not* security by obscurity. if that > > was what we were after we'd simply create a goofy > > datasource name. this is real security that requires > > an amount of specific knowledge. > > ... that can quickly and easily become public knowledge. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no kidding which is why we're not suggesting that as a security measure. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > i'm not going to sit here and argue with you about it > > One wonders why you replied, then. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< because the points you're trying to make are so ridiculous they have to be addressed. you're one of the last ones i would have figured to be on the opposite of this conversation. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Like I said before, go for it. Just make sure you get > teo and feo too. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< f.e.o. is your responsibility. as for t.e.o., it doesn't need to access the live datasource so no issues there. as for preparing it to roll-up to w.e.o. to put this extra bit of security in place, that can come as we (whoever it is that works on this) have time. it's really as simple as doing a search/replace adding the correct attributes to all tags. later, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Nov 5 21:13:27 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:13:27 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 5, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> The benefit of UEUE here is that we could single out >> only the server with UEUE on it and ONLY allow that >> server to access the database with member info. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >but ueue isn't the only site that needs access to the user/member info. >w.e.o. needs it as well. maybe you should re-read the UEUE docs? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Then, problem solved. And it can't be circumvented by >> looking at our source code. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >no, but it can be circumvented by looking at the source code for ueue. ;p um... no? the only way you'd be able to get to the member info would be to get code onto the UEUE server and get it executed. The source code has nothing to do with it. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Nov 5 21:17:32 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:17:32 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 5, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > the live datasource would keep people from doing "bad >> > things", which it will. >> >> ok, so, like i said... go ahead. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >i don't need your approval, nor am i asking for it. interesting. i thought we were moving towards consensus-based decisions. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > i'm not going to sit here and argue with you about it >> >> One wonders why you replied, then. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >because the points you're trying to make are so ridiculous they have to be >addressed. by calling me immature? i appreciate the help. >you're one of the last ones i would have figured to be on the opposite of >this conversation. im not on the opposite. i'm on the "i don't see this as a benefit worth the work" side. SOOOOOO, like i've said 4 or 5 times before, if you're willing to do the work, rock on. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> Like I said before, go for it. Just make sure you get >> teo and feo too. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >f.e.o. is your responsibility. Oh, it is? And why is that? Fuck that, I'm sorry. If you wanna make the change, then make the change. If you don't, I really don't see the benefit of adding this to one member database and not the other. >as for t.e.o., it doesn't need to access the >live datasource so no issues there. Um. I give up. I must just be being immature and rediculous. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 21:17:37 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:17:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > What does access to weo have to do with anything? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< we have other things to worry about besides data collection. what about deleting data? on w.e.o. that'd be disastrous. on t.e.o. it'd be a minor inconvenience. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Or, when dan copies the db over to teo, is there some > magical process that changes all the passwords and user > information? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no, there isn't. an issue, but only one of many existing issues. what's to keep someone from just wiping the content table on w.e.o. right now? where would we be then? going to go take a shower now before heading to the hospital. you have yourself a nice evening too. later, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Nov 5 21:19:54 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:19:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 5, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update >> Or, when dan copies the db over to teo, is there some >> magical process that changes all the passwords and user >> information? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >no, there isn't. an issue, but only one of many existing issues. what's to >keep someone from just wiping the content table on w.e.o. right now? where >would we be then? .jeff, weo's database is on a DIFFERENT server than all other databases. WEO is on a different server than all other sites. I believe this is already the case, \but if it ISN'T isolated by IP, it certainly can be, I'm sure. but, if you still wanna put the work in, go for it. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From jeff at members.evolt.org Mon Nov 5 21:23:29 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:23:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > > i don't need your approval, nor am i asking for it. > > interesting. i thought we were moving towards > consensus-based decisions. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< of course. consensus != unanimous ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > by calling me immature? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no, by saying that the suggestion of putting a username/password combination on the live db's datasource was security by obscurity. it's not and you know it. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > im not on the opposite. i'm on the "i don't see this as > a benefit worth the work" side. SOOOOOO, like i've said > 4 or 5 times before, if you're willing to do the work, > rock on. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< right on, why didn't you just say that in the beginning? i wasn't asking you to do the work. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > f.e.o. is your responsibility. > > Oh, it is? And why is that? > > Fuck that, I'm sorry. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< maybe responsibility of development on that subsite has shifted. if it has, i'm not aware of that happening in which case i apologize for saying it's your responsibility. the point of that though is that if there are sites out there leveraging that datasource, it's the code owners responsibility to either make it work or live without the access. besides, it's not like f.e.o. is even live yet. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From mwarden at mattwarden.com Mon Nov 5 21:28:57 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Mon Nov 5 21:28:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 5, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >of course. consensus != unanimous > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> by calling me immature? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >no, by saying that the suggestion of putting a username/password combination >on the live db's datasource was security by obscurity. it's not and you >know it. please don't speak for me... >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> im not on the opposite. i'm on the "i don't see this as >> a benefit worth the work" side. SOOOOOO, like i've said >> 4 or 5 times before, if you're willing to do the work, >> rock on. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >right on, why didn't you just say that in the beginning? I did, about 5 or 6 emails ago. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > f.e.o. is your responsibility. >> >> Oh, it is? And why is that? >> >> Fuck that, I'm sorry. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >maybe responsibility of development on that subsite has shifted. if it has, >i'm not aware of that happening in which case i apologize for saying it's >your responsibility. the point of that though is that if there are sites >out there leveraging that datasource, it's the code owners responsibility to >either make it work or live without the access. Just wanna point out that just because someone takes up work that no one else has volunteered to do doesn't make that project that person's sole responsibility until the end of time. >besides, it's not like >f.e.o. is even live yet. oh, so i guess you're relying on people not knowing about it... thanks, -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From michele at wordpro.on.ca Tue Nov 6 09:46:33 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Tue Nov 6 09:46:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] Unacceptable Behaviour Message-ID: <00d601c166da$9ad8fce0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> dude. now you're just being an immature twit. IMHO, the above is not acceptable behaviour for this list (for any list in fact). If one must resort to name calling in order to get their point across, then perhaps its time to take a break from the computer and rethink the issue. Comments such as the above do nothing to foster community, openness, nor volunteerism. Please refrain from making such comments in the future. Each and every person's comments, ideas, suggestions, whatever are valued within evolt.org. Let's remember that. This is not the place for personal attacks. Let's keep the professionalism of evolt.org intact. Thanks, Michele From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Nov 6 11:22:25 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Nov 6 11:22:25 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help References: Message-ID: <3BE81C7C.8080600@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: >>>you can make sure the stylesheets are correct as far >>>as the classes and css validity. however, you can't >>>go changing colors, fonts, font sizes, that sort of >>>thing. understand the distinction? >>> >>who is going to change them then? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > i'm saying they shouldn't be changed. i'm saying if x.css doesn't have the same classes as y.css, it should be changed. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>i thought you just said we *should* remain consistant? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > huh? consistent with regard to what? > > consistent by making sure all the appropriate classes are in the stylesheet, > sure. what sort of consistency are you referring to? oy. never mind.. .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Nov 6 11:28:02 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Nov 6 11:28:02 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BE81DCD.2000205@starkmedia.com> .jeff wrote: >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>we will trust the people running the subsite, 'we' wont >>always have control over it though. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > no? why not? > > i think there are many reasons why we should make sure that never happens. care to share them, or to just keep continually arguing ? >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>and it might not always be practical for a new subsite >>to have direct access to the DB. example: its hosted >>somewhere other than the network the oracle box happens >>to be sitting on. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > xml data transfer. disconnected subsites aren't a problem. um. this is pretty much what we're doing with ueue. 'data transfer' from a DB connected machine to one that isn't. i'm confused as to if you're agreeing or not. .djc. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Nov 6 11:37:04 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Nov 6 11:37:04 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BE81FEA.4050402@starkmedia.com> we'd be fine. i'd restore from the archive logs. enough with the fucking disaster scenerios and the lame jabs.. christ. .djc. .jeff wrote: > no, there isn't. an issue, but only one of many existing issues. what's to > keep someone from just wiping the content table on w.e.o. right now? where > would we be then? > going to go take a shower now before heading to the hospital. you have > yourself a nice evening too. From djc at starkmedia.com Tue Nov 6 11:38:45 2001 From: djc at starkmedia.com (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Nov 6 11:38:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BE8204F.60707@starkmedia.com> nice attitude.. jeez. its a wonder why w.e.o access is closed off! .djc. .jeff wrote: > i don't need your approval, nor am i asking for it. From djc at members.evolt.org Tue Nov 6 11:50:32 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Nov 6 11:50:32 2001 Subject: back to the *point* WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BE82295.2090107@members.evolt.org> mark, looks nice :) take out about the part regarding m.e.o complexities for now. i know we talked about it on the phone, but lets just disregard that 'X factor' :) thanks again! .djc. Mark Nickel wrote: > > I've made another update to the design document for UEUE. > > http://members.evolt.org/mnickel and click on the v.0.2 document > > Here's in interesting question. It's kinda directed at Dan, but really > for any Apache skillz personage. > > If I where to access the URL for a PHP page, is it possible to > rewrite/remove cookies, that are being passed from the browser to the > webserver, from within Apache before the request is passed through to the > PHP page/engine? > > Basically this would be some type of handler configured in httpd.conf... > > Any ideas? From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Nov 6 12:56:00 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Nov 6 12:56:00 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BE81DCD.2000205@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > > i think there are many reasons why we should make > > sure that never happens. > > care to share them, or to just keep continually > arguing ? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i don't feel that i'm the one arguing. i feel that i'm bringing up valid points and being responded to as if i'm crazy for considering such solutions. there are lots of reasons we should make sure that we have some sort of connection to all sub-sites. one of the most important is to make sure that the sub-site isn't being used in a fashion directly in conflict with our mission in general. another is to make sure they fall within our charter or bylaws as an organization, whatever those might be. basically it comes down to guaranteeing there are checks and balances in place. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > > xml data transfer. disconnected subsites aren't a > > problem. > > um. this is pretty much what we're doing with ueue. > 'data transfer' from a DB connected machine to one > that isn't. i'm confused as to if you're agreeing > or not. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i don't see anything about data transfer in either of the ueue infrastructure design documents. the only thing i see is the setting of a cookie that contains the very basic of user information. also, how does ueue address the possibility where an evolt "subsite" was actually under a different domain? how would it be able to set cookies for that domain? thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Tue Nov 6 14:17:19 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Tue Nov 6 14:17:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BE81FEA.4050402@starkmedia.com> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > we'd be fine. i'd restore from the archive logs. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< which ones? these ones? "about once a month i gzip a copy of everything important(lists, DB, code) and scoot it over to a directory on Ron Dormans server in virginia" http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-November/1564113.html or something else? i'm not trying to play games or be a smartass. i'm honestly wanting to know. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > enough with the fucking disaster scenerios ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< a wise man once said, "plan for the worst, hope for the best". i only bring up these "fucking disaster scenerios (sic)" because i was asked to provide evidence that something needs to be done now. it's simply an analysis of our existing risk-factor. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > and the lame jabs.. christ. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sorry you see them that way. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From r937 at interlog.com Tue Nov 6 14:17:23 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Tue Nov 6 14:17:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help Message-ID: <01c166fc$9805e740$034f149a@rudy> >if no one else jumps up to change and validate these stylesheets, >particularly the person who did it, i think michele or whoever >volunteers their time to do so should change them +1 on general principles it's hard enough getting people to volunteer, let's make sure we don't burden them with too much stifling bureaucracy... > maybe i'm missing something, but they're only going to be allowed > to change the stylesheet values we have decided on - which are > pulled from a pre-defined list in the DB - right? the pre-defined list was the original concept for the ELEMENT table (see http://members.evolt.org/rudy/evoltb.gif) each thingie (a dom object like BODY or TD), plus each id or class that we needed (e.g. #main or .sidebar or whatever) would be an ELEMENT in the style sheet, and user-defined values for these elements would be stored in SCHEMELEMENT and the collection of values would form a SCHEME aardvark and i came up with the concept over beer at the Keg in toronto but i think somebody built an interface that manipulated the style sheet as text and saved the text as a .css external file > can someone else weigh in here and tell me if i'm making any sense at all? wish i could help, but i stopped following the continuing saga of user-definable style sheets when i learned that the database was not going to be used and they were going to be manipulated as external text files if that sounds catty, i'm sorry, it is not intended to be i do appreciate that it is easier to build a non-database application and i also appreciate that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush so if a non-database solution exists, i got no problems going alng with it does that help? rudy From djc at members.evolt.org Tue Nov 6 14:23:22 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Tue Nov 6 14:23:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BE846D0.3010705@members.evolt.org> .jeff wrote: >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>From: Daniel J. Cody >> >>we'd be fine. i'd restore from the archive logs. >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > > which ones? these ones? > http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-November/1564113.html note the question mahdu was asking about if our stuff was archived somewhere in case of exploding servers or fire. as for discovering what archive logs are, http://www.oracle.com/ http://www.orafaq.com From john at userfrenzy.com Wed Nov 7 09:39:19 2001 From: john at userfrenzy.com (John Handelaar) Date: Wed Nov 7 09:39:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org > [mailto:thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org]On Behalf Of .jeff > Sent: 06 November 2001 18:06 > To: thesite at lists.evolt.org > Subject: RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update > > also, how does ueue address the possibility where an evolt "subsite" was > actually under a different domain? how would it be able to set > cookies for > that domain? Dunno how UEUE does it. Here's how to _do_ it: ------------------------------------------ John Handelaar T +44 20 7209 4117 M +44 7930 681789 F +44 870 169 7657 E john at userfrenzy.com ------------------------------------------ From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Nov 7 09:40:06 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Nov 7 09:40:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] user selectable style help In-Reply-To: <01c166fc$9805e740$034f149a@rudy> Message-ID: rudy, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: rudy > > it's hard enough getting people to volunteer, let's make > sure we don't burden them with too much stifling > bureaucracy... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< agreed. i'm not trying to introduce more bureaucracy into this task. i'm simply trying to frame what's ok to change and what's not -- similar to how we do with the article approval process. it's equally hard to get people to contribute material and i don't want to burden them with the possibility that too much of their work will get changed. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > but i think somebody built an interface that manipulated > the style sheet as text and saved the text as a .css > external file ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i think you might be thinking about joshua's app. http://members.evolt.org/joshua/ if so, it only changes a subset of the styles in the stylesheet. if it's something else, i'm not aware of it myself. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > wish i could help, but i stopped following the > continuing saga of user-definable style sheets when i > learned that the database was not going to be used and > they were going to be manipulated as external text files ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< no harm done. i think there's just a little misunderstanding. the database is still being used to store the structure of the data. this makes it extremely easy to get the information necessary to build the edit interface. we're simply using text files as the delivery mechanism to cut out the need for a query. so, when the full meal deal is working it'll go something like this: 1) user chooses to create a new stylesheet and visits online stylesheet "editor". 2) user fills in the various values for each of the "elements" he can set values for. 3) user goes through preview process until he/she is happy with the result 4) user saves the stylesheet (this is where the cool stuff happens) 5) the data from the form is saved into the database for easy retrieval later should the user decide to edit the stylesheet in any fashion. 6) stylesheet is written out in it's entirety to a text file to be used by any user that chooses to view the site in that css design. so, they're really working in tandem. we're harnessing the advantages of each to make a better overall product. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > does that help? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< not with what i was asking about. the part i'm asking about is whether or not my suggestion of the need to apply a class to the links in s classed pagetitle1 and pagetitle2 is a good one. if you don't know why this is a problem then go to t.e.o. and choose the evoltoldschool.css stylesheet as the one to use. then, go view any article. notice how the category name disappears in the blue box top left? now, if the design had the blue bar extending across the entirety of the content "box" like it did in v1.0, then you'd also have a problem with the author link just below the article title. all i'm suggesting is that i think it's an oversight on our part to not class those links separately so they don't have to take on whatever color the links in the main content area are set to. is my question more clear now? thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at members.evolt.org Wed Nov 7 10:13:29 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Nov 7 10:13:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: Propoganda FAQ.... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102031607.0280d2d0@203.197.12.4> <3BE1C6BC.7020806@starkmedia.com> <005101c16321$dda456d0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> <3BE1C997.4060609@members.evolt.org> <000401c16334$8bf31f20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <3BE95D8B.3080403@members.evolt.org> Mich - ya, pretty much that.. "A Road Map to Evolt.org".. when i got my first apple][gs they had this cool 'get started with your new computer' disk.. taught you things like how to use a mouse(which weren't all that standard..), point and click, drag & drop, etc.. simple GUI things that anyone would learn if they jerked around with it long enough, but you learned a lot faster with this :) maybe posting some screenshots of what evolt looks like when you're not logged in, what it looks like when you are logged in etc.. how an article looks when you're the author of it, etc.. things like that make sense kinda? :) .djc. Michele Foster wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel J. Cody" > | > | spinhead wrote: > | > | > loudly that logging in (or eventually, being at a different level?) will > get > | > you a different view. I may just be ignerrunt but I looked at the site > for > | > months before it ever occurred to me to log in, and voila! new cool > toys. > | > | > | true dat. this would make a cool article for the FAQ section on the site > | maybe. we need a minister of propoganda :) > > > Such as: > > A Road Map to Evolt.org ? > How to Use Evolt.org ? > > other ides? > > Am I on the same wave length ? (I've got a lot of draft documentation > written by various people already, that could be pulled together.) > > Will have to be a Working Document, i.e. many things in the works now will > change this document (UEUE, Voting App., f.e.o., etc.). > > Can one document display different data based on a User's Priv Level? Just > asking, not sure we'd want to do this. From evolt at spinhead.com Wed Nov 7 14:30:46 2001 From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead) Date: Wed Nov 7 14:30:46 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: Propoganda FAQ.... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102031607.0280d2d0@203.197.12.4> <3BE1C6BC.7020806@starkmedia.com> <005101c16321$dda456d0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> <3BE1C997.4060609@members.evolt.org> <000401c16334$8bf31f20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <3BE95D8B.3080403@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: <000b01c167b1$822c7af0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> If a Minister of Propaganda would be the person who leads newbies thru evolt's coolness, acquainting them with all the obvious and not-so-obvious features, making them feel welcome and helping them over the rough spots; and would also be the person who helps outsiders (prospective members?) see why evolt is good for them, good for the web, good for the world; kind of a really geeky WalMart greeter*, then I'd love to submit my resume for the position, if it ever exists ;) spinhead * (americanism) WalMart is a huge chain of discount stores founded in Texas by zillionaire Sam Walton. All WalMart stores employee an official 'greeter' whose job is, quite literally, to stand inside the front doors and greet customers as they arrive. They also answer questions and do general customer service stuff, but they're waiting at the door when you walk in so you never have to go looking for help. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Cody" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:12 AM Subject: [thesite] Re: Propoganda FAQ.... [ . . . ] we need a minister of propoganda :) [ . . . ] From sgd at ti3.com Wed Nov 7 15:09:08 2001 From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter) Date: Wed Nov 7 15:09:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: Propoganda FAQ.... Message-ID: > > * (americanism) WalMart is a huge chain of discount stores > founded in Texas > by zillionaire Sam Walton. All WalMart stores employee an > official 'greeter' http://www.walmartstores.com/ WalMart trivia: Did you know that the music heard inside your local WalMart is the exact music being played at every WalMart across the country? Each WalMart feeds its audio via satellite from the home base in Arkansas.... I find that a little creepy, but that's me... sgd From miriam at dynagirl.com Wed Nov 7 15:38:14 2001 From: miriam at dynagirl.com (Miriam Frost) Date: Wed Nov 7 15:38:14 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: Propoganda FAQ.... Message-ID: <007001c167d1$ea92f590$79cff3cd@walthers.com> > kind of a really geeky WalMart greeter* FWIW, that would be a Minion of Propaganda; the Minister of Propaganda / Mistress of Propaganda would be equivalent to the Marketing/PR Director. {I still have some business cards with that title from an old job ;-)~ } From webguru at vsnl.net Wed Nov 7 15:38:17 2001 From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon) Date: Wed Nov 7 15:38:17 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: Propoganda FAQ.... In-Reply-To: <20011107211420.15F0552080@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108025710.028cf9a0@203.197.12.4> At 02:44 AM 11/8/2001, you wrote: >* (americanism) WalMart is a huge chain of discount stores founded in Texas >by zillionaire Sam Walton. All WalMart stores employee an official 'greeter' >whose job is, quite literally, to stand inside the front doors and greet >customers as they arrive. They also answer questions and do general customer >service stuff, but they're waiting at the door when you walk in so you never >have to go looking for help. I see that I'm already beginning to have a positive effect by way of increased culture-sensitivity ;) 1) In your browser, holding down Ctrl and then rolling the mouse scroller will quickly change font sizes. 2) Pressing down the scroller will create a scroll widget on the screen. Now, if you move your mouse up and down, the page will scroll. How fast or slow depends on how much you move the mouse. It's easier than using scroll bars. Hang on, is this list even parsed for tips? :-/ Madhu <<< * >>> Madhu Menon User Experience Consultant e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net From r937 at interlog.com Wed Nov 7 15:45:12 2001 From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy) Date: Wed Nov 7 15:45:12 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: Propoganda FAQ.... Message-ID: <01c167d5$80a9ef40$ea4e149a@rudy> > then I'd love to submit my resume for the > [Minister of Propaganda] position, if it ever exists ;) joel, the position not only already exists, it has been occupied since the very beginning by dave mclean however, it is an unofficial position, and furthermore, there's nothing that says we can't have co-MOPs rudy From djc at members.evolt.org Wed Nov 7 15:57:45 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Nov 7 15:57:45 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: Propoganda FAQ.... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102031607.0280d2d0@203.197.12.4> <3BE1C6BC.7020806@starkmedia.com> <005101c16321$dda456d0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> <3BE1C997.4060609@members.evolt.org> <000401c16334$8bf31f20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <3BE95D8B.3080403@members.evolt.org> <000b01c167b1$822c7af0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Message-ID: <3BE9AD7B.50009@members.evolt.org> thats pretty much it.. letting the web know about cool shit we're doing here.. example: our third birthday is coming up, and our community is thriving more now than ever. i think it would be cool to have something to send to some sites basically saying, "evolt.org turns three blah blah.. compared to better funded(or funded period!) community sites that have been falling by the wayside - especially in the last year - what has evolt.org been doing right" or something like that. editorialists eat that stuff up.. how david(us) came out ahead of highly publisized, highly financed, and highly hyped golaiths. as rudy said, dave mcc has laid claim to the title since about day 8, but evolt advocacy really isn't about anyone applying for the job, just doing it :) at any rate, i think it would be tres cool to start activley doing this stuff again. our third birthday is an awesome place to start that. and this should probably get moved off this list :) .djc. spinhead wrote: > If a Minister of Propaganda would be the person who leads newbies thru > evolt's coolness, acquainting them with all the obvious and not-so-obvious > features, making them feel welcome and helping them over the rough spots; > and would also be the person who helps outsiders (prospective members?) see > why evolt is good for them, good for the web, good for the world; kind of a > really geeky WalMart greeter*, then I'd love to submit my resume for the > position, if it ever exists ;) From evolt at spinhead.com Wed Nov 7 16:38:01 2001 From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead) Date: Wed Nov 7 16:38:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: Propoganda FAQ.... References: <01c167d5$80a9ef40$ea4e149a@rudy> Message-ID: <003901c167db$26f9fa20$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Hey, 'Minion of Propaganda' is cool, too (thanks, Miriam.) Seriously, though - Dan mentions the third birthday approaching. Are there already plans to promote this? (Don't want to muddy the waters; if this should be discussed elsewhere/elsewhen, lemme know.) spinhead ----- Original Message ----- From: "rudy" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [thesite] Re: Propoganda FAQ.... > > then I'd love to submit my resume for the > > [Minister of Propaganda] position, if it ever exists ;) > > joel, the position not only already exists, it has been occupied since the > very beginning by dave mclean > > however, it is an unofficial position, and furthermore, there's nothing > that says we can't have co-MOPs > > rudy > > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From mnickel at new.rr.com Wed Nov 7 21:47:33 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Wed Nov 7 21:47:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BE9FDEC.2536BD96@new.rr.com> John Handelaar wrote: > > Dunno how UEUE does it. Here's how to _do_ it: > > > Yup, that's about right.... A hidden field in a form is set with the subsites URL. The UEUE server will then set cookies based on the subsite's domain... :) If you want to check some of this out... head over here: http://members.evolt.org/garrett/uetest/register.php If you view source you can see some of the framework. Not everything is perfect... I mean, we leave the subsite-secret-key in plain text... clearly Not A Good Thing(tm), but it's the general gist of the thing... After you register, you are redirected back to garrett's site, simulating a redirect to a *.e.o subsite. If you want to relogin, go http://members.evolt.org/mnickel/ueue/ueue_login.php This relogin simulates a login form on a subsite, garrett's, with a redirect_site back to garrett's... the biggest advantage is that you get to look at your cookies for *.e.o and most of the digital signature stuff is there. This is all based on the UEUE v.0.1 document. It hasn't been fully updated with v.0.2 Mark -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From mnickel at new.rr.com Wed Nov 7 21:47:37 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Wed Nov 7 21:47:37 2001 Subject: back to the *point* WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: <3BE82295.2090107@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: <3BEA00BD.D767C4CD@new.rr.com> "Daniel J. Cody" wrote: > take out about the part regarding m.e.o complexities for now. i know we > talked about it on the phone, but lets just disregard that 'X factor' :) > Actually, the original question has still gone unanswered: Theoretically, is it possible to create an Apache handler in Perl/whatever for m.e.o. that would strip all UEUE-based cookies? The 'X-factor', I believe, was the reference to the complexities of using UEUE cookie-based authentication on m.e.o. Please refresh my addled brain on that one, Dan?? I would propose that cookie-based authentication is not really "the ideal" solution for all this... J2EE and .NET really address the whole Global Session, Global Authentication problems... However, cookie-based authentication *IS* generally "good enough" for our purposes. My new I.S. motto: "It doesn't have to be good, just good enough" I forget where I read that, but I like it.. J2EE and .NET are going to rely on server-to-server communication to facilitate the authentication... Another solution would be to add digital certificates to everyone's browser who signs up for an account on ueue.evolt.org. Then we could build a really kick-ass X.509 certificate handler environment and issue certificates from ueue.evolt.org. Plus we could add biometric user authentication!! :) sw33t!!!! I went to a seminar by a crazy paranoid CSI/FBI guy in Milwaukee. (There was another CodeFest person there, unfortunately I can't remember your name... please please forgive me.. :) ) Some CA guy made a major plug for their SSO solution... Cheers! Mark -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Nov 7 22:32:02 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Nov 7 22:32:02 2001 Subject: back to the *point* WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BEA00BD.D767C4CD@new.rr.com> Message-ID: mark, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Mark Nickel > > > take out about the part regarding m.e.o complexities > > for now. i know we talked about it on the phone, but > > lets just disregard that 'X factor' :) > > Actually, the original question has still gone > unanswered: Theoretically, is it possible to create > an Apache handler in Perl/whatever for m.e.o. that > would strip all UEUE-based cookies? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< by strip you mean delete the cookies entirely? that would have quite negative effects on persistent logins for those users who visit m.e.o. sites. if you're talking about simply suppressing the reporting of the passed cookies then i believe that will still leave javascript open as a method of reading the users ueue cookies as javascript asks the browser for the cookies and doesn't read them from the headers. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > J2EE and .NET are going to rely on server-to-server > communication to facilitate the authentication... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i really like the sound of this approach. this serves to remove the problems associated with multiple redirects, the problems associated with cookies, the problems with any site that wants to participate having to use whatever authentication/cookie scheme we put in place, and greatly reduces the chances of malicious users figuring out our authentication mechanisms and secret keys (which would still be needed for server-to-server communication. we also aren't impaired by cookie number and size limits as the data would never be transported to the end-user. at that point we could effectively create a system that would create a unified session across sites as opposed to just a unified login. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at members.evolt.org Wed Nov 7 22:32:06 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Nov 7 22:32:06 2001 Subject: back to the *point* WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: <3BE82295.2090107@members.evolt.org> <3BEA00BD.D767C4CD@new.rr.com> Message-ID: <3BEA0B93.7000403@members.evolt.org> Mark Nickel wrote: > Actually, the original question has still gone unanswered: Theoretically, is > it possible to create an Apache handler in Perl/whatever for m.e.o. that would > strip all UEUE-based cookies? to be honest, i'm not sure.. i'll check it out in the morn > The 'X-factor', I believe, was the reference to the complexities of using UEUE > cookie-based authentication on m.e.o. Please refresh my addled brain on that > one, Dan?? thats correct > could build a really kick-ass X.509 certificate handler environment and issue > certificates from ueue.evolt.org. Plus we could add biometric user > authentication!! :) sw33t!!!! retinal scan based ldap authentication perhaps? just a thought here, but would a thing like this work at all?: user goes to dan.evolt.org with X cookie(probably md5'd). dan.evolt.org grabs cookie, sends it via xml over local signed ssl certs to ueue.evolt.org. ueue.evolt.org assesses cookie, and sends a 'yes' or 'no' back to dan.evolt.org saying, 'user is cool with these credentials'. inter-server communication would be xml packets encrypted via locally signed certs. or better yet, ldap over ssl. just some thoughts at 10:30 at night aftera six pack :) > I went to a seminar by a crazy paranoid CSI/FBI guy in Milwaukee. (There was > another CodeFest person there, unfortunately I can't remember your name... > please please forgive me.. :) ) Some CA guy made a major plug for their SSO > solution... ya, greg was telling me about that.. heard the FBI guy pretty much bashed MS and sent the MS folks scurrying - not to address their problems but - to find holes in open source packages. "Well he said our solutions are insecure, but look at how insecure X open source software is!!!!!!" wish i coulda been there, sorry for that uncalled for giddyness :) .djc. From jeff at members.evolt.org Wed Nov 7 22:32:10 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Wed Nov 7 22:32:10 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BE9FDEC.2536BD96@new.rr.com> Message-ID: mark, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Mark Nickel > > Yup, that's about right.... A hidden field in a form is > set with the subsites URL. The UEUE server will then > set cookies based on the subsite's domain... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< my understanding of cookies is that you can't set a cookie for another domain. ie, if i'm visiting cnn.com, they can't set a cookie for abc.com. http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/rfc/rfc2109.html#sec-4.3.2 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > After you register, you are redirected back to garrett's > site, simulating a redirect to a *.e.o subsite. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< i didn't get the redirect when i registered. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If you want to relogin, go > http://members.evolt.org/mnickel/ueue/ueue_login.php > > This relogin simulates a login form on a subsite, > garrett's, with a redirect_site back to garrett's... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< this one seemed to work. i'm surprised by the number of cookies being used for just basic info though. as of now we're talking about 8 cookies. if we're setting a cookie for each piece of info then we could easily bump against the 20 cookie limit (http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/rfc/rfc2109.html#sec-6.3) also, i'm concerned that things like my username and my email are in these cookies in clear text. this opens up severe privacy concerns with regard to m.e.o. cookie usage that don't currently exist. these concerns of mine may not be necessary though as i notice you're setting a cookie with the hashed values as well. if it's just the hashed values that will be used in the final implementation then that's not so much of a problem. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From djc at members.evolt.org Wed Nov 7 22:42:11 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Wed Nov 7 22:42:11 2001 Subject: back to the *point* WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BEA0E11.4000805@members.evolt.org> this is just me an limited understanding of j2ee and .net, but wouldn't we need to have these technologies in place to use them? if i'm wrong, ok, but one more thought :) the purpose of what we're trying to do here is to make it language agnostic. if we have a subsite in jsp, it can talk to our user DB. same with asp, cf, php, perl, python, whatever - we don't need to rely on any one language to develop evolt sites while assuring they're able to hook into the 'collective' :) again, i may not have a grasp of the technologies here, just lemme know if not .djc. .jeff wrote: >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >>J2EE and .NET are going to rely on server-to-server >>communication to facilitate the authentication... >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> > i really like the sound of this approach. this serves to remove the From mwarden at mattwarden.com Wed Nov 7 22:58:39 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Wed Nov 7 22:58:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Nov 7, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update >mark, > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< >> From: Mark Nickel >> >> Yup, that's about right.... A hidden field in a form is >> set with the subsites URL. The UEUE server will then >> set cookies based on the subsite's domain... >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >my understanding of cookies is that you can't set a cookie for another >domain. ie, if i'm visiting cnn.com, they can't set a cookie for abc.com. > >http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/rfc/rfc2109.html#sec-4.3.2 ? -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From mnickel at new.rr.com Thu Nov 8 09:31:16 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Thu Nov 8 09:31:16 2001 Subject: XML-RPC Digression... WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: <3BEA0E11.4000805@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: <3BEA2A8D.3739508E@new.rr.com> Ok, if you really want my Grand Unified UEUE Theory without J2EE, (GUUEUET??? :) ) here it goes: o browser connects to *.evolt.org site and wants to login. o *.e.o site makes an XML-RPC request to ueue.evolt.org service with a subsite username and password to access the XML-RPC service on ueue.evolt.org. o ueue.evolt.org returns an XML-RPC package to the *.evolt.org subsite with a pass/fail result o *.evolt.org is responsible for making nicey-nicey session's using cookies between the browser and *.evolt.org subsite if the user login passes/is successful. o no futher interaction with ueue.evolt.org is necessary **OR** o if we don't want to trust anyone *EVERY* access of the browser to the *.e.o site will result in the *.e.o subsite re-authenticating the user via XML-RPC to the ueue.evolt.org server The above, obviously, does not solve the Global User Sessions across all *.evolt.org... Each subsite would still be responsible for that task. cookies would be sufficent then. The XML-RPC payload could be made GPG encrypted, SSL'ed, etc. This is oh-so-similar to the straight DB lookup, DSN username/password discussion in this thread, however with XML-RPC it's server-side language agnostic which would satisfy the "generic" component for the implementation of each subsite. I believe Matt W. has done some of this intra-network querying, but I believe that is something we should stay away from. That native client-server database access would work, but I think that the XML-RPC is just more funner... :) . Besides, I just love the whole market-speak surrounding Web Services... :) :) :) :) I think it's hilarious In my gut, this is what I call the "good" solution. All the cookie dancing/MD5'ing, is the "good enough" solution. Thanks! Mark "Daniel J. Cody" wrote: > this is just me an limited understanding of j2ee and .net, but wouldn't > we need to have these technologies in place to use them? > > if i'm wrong, ok, but one more thought :) the purpose of what we're > trying to do here is to make it language agnostic. if we have a subsite > in jsp, it can talk to our user DB. same with asp, cf, php, perl, > python, whatever - we don't need to rely on any one language to develop > evolt sites while assuring they're able to hook into the 'collective' :) > > again, i may not have a grasp of the technologies here, just lemme know > if not > > .djc. > > .jeff wrote: > > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >>J2EE and .NET are going to rely on server-to-server > >>communication to facilitate the authentication... > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >> > > i really like the sound of this approach. this serves to remove the From mnickel at new.rr.com Thu Nov 8 09:31:22 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Thu Nov 8 09:31:22 2001 Subject: Biometric UEUE Digression -- WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: <3BE82295.2090107@members.evolt.org> <3BEA00BD.D767C4CD@new.rr.com> <3BEA0B93.7000403@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: <3BEA2E18.9DE137E3@new.rr.com> > retinal scan based ldap authentication perhaps? just a thought here, but > would a thing like this work at all?: Heck yea! > user goes to dan.evolt.org with X cookie(probably md5'd). dan.evolt.org > grabs cookie, sends it via xml over local signed ssl certs to > ueue.evolt.org. ueue.evolt.org assesses cookie, and sends a 'yes' or > 'no' back to dan.evolt.org saying, 'user is cool with these > credentials'. inter-server communication would be xml packets encrypted > via locally signed certs. or better yet, ldap over ssl. just some > thoughts at 10:30 at night aftera six pack :) Actually, evolt member's computer has a biometic input device that is the passkey to their digital certificate signed by evolt.org and issued to the evolt member. When the user logs on to their system, the digital cert. keyring is opened and ready for use. when the user goes to dan.evolt.org, the digital cert. is passed to the server, the server sends the digital cert over xml/ssl/gpg to ueue.evolt.org to which checks the digital cert. for validity with the digital cert. server (basically X.509/LDAP) and returns their user profile to dan.evolt.org or failure.. dan.evolt.org sets a cookie to maintain session state with the user and checks the digital cert., each http request. Because dan.evolt.org knows its a good cert. since ueue.evolt.org said so, dan.evolt.org can trust the user's digital cert. and won't need to interact with ueue.evolt.org unless profile information would need to be updated!!! :) sw33t! Token-based 1 time password generators would work almost as well... :) Biometrics are *almost* as sexy as Nano-tech, but not quite.. :) > ya, greg was telling me about that.. heard the FBI guy pretty much > bashed MS and sent the MS folks scurrying - not to address their > problems but - to find holes in open source packages. "Well he said our > solutions are insecure, but look at how insecure X open source software > is!!!!!!" And scurry they did!!! I literally heard mouths drop open and hands slap foreheads throughout his presentation from MS shops trying to remember if they've got the latest patches... Without saying anything direct, he basically said the Open Source applications were generally more secure because the peer review process kept things honest... I thought, though, several of his comments were *VERY* inappropiate and not very Politically Correct... But he mentioned Bastelle linux on his home servers... OOOoOOooooo :) He also slammed local security consulting groups that don't partner with law enforcement... Calling those shops "security boutiques" I'm hoping he wasn't including Sun Tzu in that grouping... They seem bright. w3rd... going to bed. Mark > > wish i coulda been there, sorry for that uncalled for giddyness :) > > .djc. > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 8 09:31:28 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Nov 8 09:31:28 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: matt, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Warden, Matt > > > my understanding of cookies is that you can't set a > > cookie for another domain. ie, if i'm visiting > > cnn.com, they can't set a cookie for abc.com. > > width="1" height="1" > src="http://www.733twear.com/setcookie.cfm?shiz=foo" /> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< yes, that's a valid option. however, it requires that "subsite" have a mechanism in place to answer the request and apply it correctly. it also requires the ueue application to have a path for this request stored for every subsite that will interface with it. additionally, it requires a page view on ueue and wouldn't be transparent to the end-user. just my thoughts, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From mnickel at new.rr.com Thu Nov 8 09:31:31 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Thu Nov 8 09:31:31 2001 Subject: J2EE Digression... WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: <3BEA0E11.4000805@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: <3BEA25B6.CD5D492B@new.rr.com> djc wrote: > this is just me an limited understanding of j2ee and .net, but wouldn't > we need to have these technologies in place to use them? Yes you would. Throw out the Coldfusion/PHP/Perl and embrace Java Server Pages/Servlets/and EJB's. If you still want the authentication server-to-server, then you need an XML-RPC architecture. This doesn't solve the problems of Global user sessions.... :) > if i'm wrong, ok, but one more thought :) the purpose of what we're > trying to do here is to make it language agnostic. if we have a subsite > in jsp, it can talk to our user DB. same with asp, cf, php, perl, > python, whatever - we don't need to rely on any one language to develop > evolt sites while assuring they're able to hook into the 'collective' :) > > again, i may not have a grasp of the technologies here, just lemme know > if not > > .djc. > > .jeff wrote: > > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >>J2EE and .NET are going to rely on server-to-server > >>communication to facilitate the authentication... > >><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > >> > > i really like the sound of this approach. this serves to remove the Ok, here's my understanding of J2EE in a nutshell. I'm not going to talk about .NET because I know that it's just basically the same thing as J2EE but written VB style with a Hailstorm/User authentication/authorization layer... (Really Sun ONE and .NET are competeing products who's underlying technologies are J2EE and C#/Biztalk/IIS/ASP...) Basically J2EE is a EJB (Enterprise Java Bean) Server Container. This Container is a logical construct that can reside over several physical server/load balancers/etc. Within this Container, you've got Session Beans. These constructs are responsible for maintaining "states" across the Container architecture. Sessions can be of all different classes but basically we're talking about User Sessions spanning the entire architecture. I believe that Resources (Database connections/MQSeries connections/etc) also utilize the Session Beans for their purposes... I believe that you can have inter-architecture operability, i.e. ColdFusion to J2EE, using IIOP or CORBA... It's ugly, but I believe that it is possible... IMHO, J2EE works great when you have "clients" that are really humans accessing data through web-applications who get data from a multitude of sources... When your "clients" become Autonomous agents, then the model will still work, but you get into these hybrid J2EE "app-servers" that are sold by CommerceOne, BlueStone(now HP), RosetteNet, etc... JBoss is really the only Open Source project that is attempting a to have J2EE functionality but not necessarily J2EE certification. This is the same fine line that Mesa walks... It's OpenGL compliant, but not certified... I'm pretty sure that's essentially how the J2EE works.. To the best of my knowledge, anyway...... n e 1 want to change from CF to Java??? Mark -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From mnickel at new.rr.com Thu Nov 8 09:31:32 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Thu Nov 8 09:31:32 2001 Subject: back to the *point* WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BEA20BF.AD73ACE0@new.rr.com> .jeff wrote > by strip you mean delete the cookies entirely? that would have quite > negative effects on persistent logins for those users who visit m.e.o. > sites. if you're talking about simply suppressing the reporting of the I was speaking of supressing the cookies from being passed from the browser through Apache, to the PHP engine to interpret the *.php page. The cookies would still exist in the the users cookiejar on the browser side. Apache would prevent these from being put into X server-side scripting language's $COOKIE variables... And I would only toy with cookies who's name begin with ueue_* any other cookies wouldn't be touched. If m.e.o. were to set other cookies, these wouldn't be touched... I know this would defeat the purpose of ueue on m.e.o. which is kinda what we are circling back around to saying... No UEUE for m.e.o. because we are allowing the "X-Factor" whereby users have server-side scripting capability... > passed cookies then i believe that will still leave javascript open as a > method of reading the users ueue cookies as javascript asks the browser for > the cookies and doesn't read them from the headers. Would you be able to provide more information on this? I'm unfamiliar with Javascript haxoring in this way. I would think that by mod'ing Apache, any hacks in Javascript would be twarted because at some point in time l33t haxor johnny is going to need to redirect to a webserver "somewhere", right? Since only cookies for a domain are sent to the webserver for that domain, I don't see how the cookies could be stolen if Apache were to supress ueue_* cookies from going to the server-side scripting language on m.e.o..... But, honestly, I don't profess to be an expert in all things so I'm really eager for more information. Truly! :) :) Again, w.r.t. the 20 cookie limit, I had no idea.... That's the beauty of a community like evolt and the concept of peer review.. One doesn't have to know *everything* we all contribute to the whole! :) Thanks! Mark -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 8 10:25:04 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Nov 8 10:25:04 2001 Subject: back to the *point* WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BEA0E11.4000805@members.evolt.org> Message-ID: dan, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Daniel J. Cody > > this is just me an limited understanding of j2ee and > .net, but wouldn't we need to have these technologies > in place to use them? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< nope, not at all. what we're talking about here is a very basic cross-site authentication model where the user store is disconnected for security reasons. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > if i'm wrong, ok, but one more thought :) the purpose of > what we're trying to do here is to make it language > agnostic. if we have a subsite in jsp, it can talk to > our user DB. same with asp, cf, php, perl, python, > whatever - we don't need to rely on any one language to > develop evolt sites while assuring they're able to hook > into the 'collective' :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< that's the beauty of what i'm talking about. the language of each subsite isn't an issue as long as the subsite can 1) open a server-to-server line of communication between itself and ueue and 2) parse/create an xml packet. this approach would also allow us to maintain a unified session across subsites. as a user creates session information it would be up to the subsite to create an xml packet with each piece of session information and pass that packet to ueue for storage. if the user goes off to another subsite, that subsite would then try to authenticate the user with ueue and would get either a "fail" or an xml packet containing user information as well as that user's session information, if it existed. the beauty here is that it'd be up to the subsites to do this reporting of session information and decide what they want to do with session information created at another subsite that had been reported to ueue. if there was sensitive information pertinent only to a subsite they could choose to not pass that along to ueue for the global session. obviously to make this work we'd need to come up with a defined format for storing and reporting this session information to make it easy for the subsites to use it. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 8 10:25:09 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Nov 8 10:25:09 2001 Subject: back to the *point* WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BEA20BF.AD73ACE0@new.rr.com> Message-ID: mark, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Mark Nickel > > > by strip you mean delete the cookies entirely? that > > would have quite negative effects on persistent logins > > for those users who visit m.e.o. sites. if you're > > talking about simply suppressing the reporting of the > > I was speaking of supressing the cookies from being > passed from the browser through Apache, to the PHP > engine to interpret the *.php page. The cookies > would still exist in the the users cookiejar on the > browser side. Apache would prevent these from being put > into X server-side scripting language's $COOKIE > variables... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sounds like you'd need to write this protection layer for each app server. too much work though if it's going to leave the cookies wide open for harvesting with javascript. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > Would you be able to provide more information on this? > I'm unfamiliar with Javascript haxoring in this way. I > would think that by mod'ing Apache, any hacks in > Javascript would be twarted because at some point in > time l33t haxor johnny is going to need to redirect to > a webserver "somewhere", right? Since only cookies for > a domain are sent to the webserver for that domain, I > don't see how the cookies could be stolen if Apache were > to supress ueue_* cookies from going to the server-side > scripting language on m.e.o..... But, honestly, I don't > profess to be an expert in all things so I'm really > eager for more information. Truly! :) :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< grabbing cookies with javascript is really rather simple. all i have to do is query the document.cookies object and it'll tell me everything i need to know. then, i can report them back to my server-side script in a multitude of ways for logging purposes. these ways would include things like pass the entire mess of cookie values as a url parameter to a hidden iframe, as a url parameter to an image swap, to a hidden form field and submit the form, etc. supressing the cookies server-side won't stop this since javascript communicates directly with the browser and not with anything server-side to get the cookies. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 8 10:25:16 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Nov 8 10:25:16 2001 Subject: J2EE Digression... WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BEA25B6.CD5D492B@new.rr.com> Message-ID: mark, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Mark Nickel > > > this is just me an limited understanding of j2ee and > > .net, but wouldn't we need to have these technologies > > in place to use them? > > Yes you would. Throw out the Coldfusion/PHP/Perl and > embrace Java Server Pages/Servlets/and EJB's. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< nope, not at all. the logic for the application is simple enough it can be developed in whatever language is most comfortable to the person writing it. the language each subsite uses would be completely irrelevant so long as they can communicate server-to-server and create/parse xml packets. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > If you still want the authentication server-to-server, > then you need an XML-RPC architecture. This doesn't > solve the problems of Global user sessions.... :) ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< but it can. see my response to dan in the original thread. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > I'm pretty sure that's essentially how the J2EE works.. > To the best of my knowledge, anyway...... > n e 1 want to change from CF to Java??? ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< sarcasm noted. *grin* no platform change is necessary. in fact, it's better if we don't change platforms for this. in the end it will be more secure if ueue is more of a blackbox -- input information and get information back out with no idea how it does it. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From jeff at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 8 10:25:17 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Thu Nov 8 10:25:17 2001 Subject: XML-RPC Digression... WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BEA2A8D.3739508E@new.rr.com> Message-ID: mark, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Mark Nickel > > In my gut, this is what I call the "good" solution. > All the cookie dancing/MD5'ing, is the "good enough" > solution. ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< and here it feels to me like the cookie/md5'ing is more work because of all the issues with cookies. .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Thu Nov 8 10:25:19 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Thu Nov 8 10:25:19 2001 Subject: XML-RPC Digression... WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BEA2A8D.3739508E@new.rr.com> References: <3BEA0E11.4000805@members.evolt.org> <3BEA2A8D.3739508E@new.rr.com> Message-ID: <20011108160925.73fe3290.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> On Thu, 08 Nov 2001 00:47:41 -0600 Mark Nickel wrote: > Ok, if you really want my Grand Unified UEUE Theory without J2EE, > (GUUEUET??? :) ) Just call it GARRETT and get it over and done with *:) G. "We now return you to your scheduled programming" -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Nov 8 13:28:51 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Nov 8 13:28:51 2001 Subject: XML-RPC Digression... WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BEA2A8D.3739508E@new.rr.com> Message-ID: On Nov 8, Mark Nickel had something to say about XML-RPC Digression... WAS:... >I believe Matt W. has done some of this intra-network querying, but I >believe that is something we should stay away from. +42 on that. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From mwarden at mattwarden.com Thu Nov 8 13:28:56 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Thu Nov 8 13:28:56 2001 Subject: J2EE Digression... WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update In-Reply-To: <3BEA25B6.CD5D492B@new.rr.com> Message-ID: On Nov 8, Mark Nickel had something to say about J2EE Digression... WAS:... >djc wrote: > >> this is just me an limited understanding of j2ee and .net, but wouldn't >> we need to have these technologies in place to use them? > >Yes you would. Throw out the Coldfusion/PHP/Perl and embrace Java Server >Pages/Servlets/and EJB's. > >If you still want the authentication server-to-server, then you need an >XML-RPC architecture. This doesn't solve the problems of Global user >sessions.... :) Maybe I'm missing something here, but couldn't session information be created when the user is authenticated. IOW, if the user is authenticated, included in the XML response would be the user's information. The receptor (could be any language) takes that info, parses it, and then creates its own session information. When another language needs to access the session info, it won't be there, and the user would be re-authenticated(we'd probably still want to do something so that the username and password can be extracted from an encrypted cookie or something), and that language would then create its own session variables. weeeeee! -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From djc at members.evolt.org Thu Nov 8 14:00:33 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Thu Nov 8 14:00:33 2001 Subject: [thesite] UEUE related reading. Message-ID: <3BEAE418.90907@members.evolt.org> maybe we dont have to re-invent the wheel here: http://www.psynch.com/about/integration-auth.html P-Synch: Open architecture for authentication http://nareau.weblogs.com/ The Nareau Project(Identity Management) http://eugene.manilasites.com/stories/storyReader$127 Distributed single sign-on (SSO) system http://www.cni.org/projects/authentication/authentication-wp.html A White Paper on Authentication and Access Management Issues in Cross-organizational Use of Networked Information Resources http://java.sun.com/security/jaas/doc/acsac.html User Authentication and Authorization in the Java(TM) Platform http://www.dlib.org/dlib/june98/scout/06roszkowski.html A Distributed Architecture for Resource Discovery Using Metadata From webguru at vsnl.net Thu Nov 8 14:49:11 2001 From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon) Date: Thu Nov 8 14:49:11 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109015909.0288cd90@203.197.12.4> Hi all. Somebody has pointed out that it's often hard to satisfy all categories of readers in an article. While the advanced developers will know what something like SKU means, newbies probably won't. Yet, sometimes you have to use abbreviations and acronyms in articles. What I'd like to do to partially fix the problem is to accept as legal HTML for articles. Then, whenever an abbreviation or acronym is used, we just add the tag to them. We can also style them so they have, say, a dotted underline. When someone hovers their mouse on them, it's explained to them. Simple. So, instead of a sentence like: Not all browsers support all standards laid out by the W3C you'd have: Not all browsers support all standards laid out by the W3C While technically, you should for abbreviations and for acronyms, we could probably do with either one of them. What do you think? Madhu PS: An acronym is an abbreviation that is pronounced as a word. So NASA is an acronym, while CNN is an abbreviation. Words like SQL and URL can be either. <<< * >>> Madhu Menon User Experience Consultant e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net From roselli at earthlink.net Thu Nov 8 15:19:53 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Thu Nov 8 15:19:53 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109015909.0288cd90@203.197.12.4> Message-ID: <200111082116.fA8LGIjE004059@leo.evolt.org> > From: Madhu Menon [...] > What I'd like to do to partially fix the problem is to accept > as legal HTML for articles. Then, whenever an abbreviation or acronym > is used, we just add the tag to them. We can also style them so > they have, say, a dotted underline. When someone hovers their mouse on > them, it's explained to them. Simple. good point... it's not verboten, but it could certainly be added to the code style guide... i'll get to it later on tomorrow... hopefully... [...] > PS: An acronym is an abbreviation that is pronounced as a word. So > NASA is an acronym, while CNN is an abbreviation. Words like SQL and > URL can be either. URL is never an acronym... those who use it as such should be shot... From gnarly at punkass.com Thu Nov 8 15:19:57 2001 From: gnarly at punkass.com (Olly Hodgson) Date: Thu Nov 8 15:19:57 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109015909.0288cd90@203.197.12.4> Message-ID: <006f01c1689b$48b38a30$0100a8c0@olly> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Madhu Menon" Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles > What I'd like to do to partially fix the problem is to accept as > legal HTML for articles. Then, whenever an abbreviation or acronym is used, > we just add the tag to them. We can also style them so they have, > say, a dotted underline. When someone hovers their mouse on them, it's > explained to them. Simple. +1 assuming all (or most) of the major browsers support . Olly - www.gnarly.f2s.com - From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk Thu Nov 8 16:01:54 2001 From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley) Date: Thu Nov 8 16:01:54 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109015909.0288cd90@203.197.12.4> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109015909.0288cd90@203.197.12.4> Message-ID: <20011108220310.7d38e9f9.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> On Fri, 09 Nov 2001 02:07:37 +0530 Madhu Menon wrote: > What I'd like to do to partially fix the problem is to accept as > legal HTML for articles. +1 What about including the acronym tag as well? G. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/ PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/ From mnickel at new.rr.com Fri Nov 9 10:06:23 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Fri Nov 9 10:06:23 2001 Subject: back to the *point* WAS: Re: [thesite] UEUE v.0.2 Update References: Message-ID: <3BEB5F4E.19B20693@new.rr.com> .jeff wrote: > sounds like you'd need to write this protection layer for each app server. > too much work though if it's going to leave the cookies wide open for > harvesting with javascript. Based on my experience, I don't see this as too challenging.... We'd just have to make a policy that states that if you want to utilize the UEUE, then you have to run an Apache-based app-server and the evolt.org cookie-supression module...*if* such suppression is even possible. Even now, CF runs as an apache module so in theory we should be able to suppress cookies... I'm sure though, that you'd have to do this in the module and not from within a directive in httpd.conf.... PHP and mod_perl wouldn't be a problem because they are open source... ColdFusion OTH, we can't change... >grabbing cookies with javascript is really rather simple. all i have to do >is query the document.cookies object and it'll tell me everything i need to >know. then, i can report them back to my server-side script in a multitude >of ways for logging purposes. these ways would include things like pass the Aahhh... now I see. I wasn't aware that you could do Javascript redirects... I can see how this would be a problem... Hrm... Thanks very much for the information... :) Mark -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From roselli at earthlink.net Fri Nov 9 10:06:29 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Fri Nov 9 10:06:29 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles In-Reply-To: <006f01c1689b$48b38a30$0100a8c0@olly> Message-ID: <3BEACE37.2944.BBBA1254@localhost> > From: "Olly Hodgson" > > +1 assuming all (or most) of the major browsers support . doesn't really matter... if they don't, nothing happens... From mnickel at new.rr.com Fri Nov 9 10:06:35 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Fri Nov 9 10:06:35 2001 Subject: [thesite] [UEUE] Unified Sessions req. for more details Message-ID: <3BEB64E5.4FDC7EF4@new.rr.com> .jeff, anyone, please fill in some more details surrounding the what and why for unified sessions? I understand the concept and the why's for them in a J2EE sense, but gimmie some nuts and bolts for our situation... All this network/session traffic to and from ueue.evolt.org and the subsites to support these sessions is going to result in a slow end-user experience, IMHO. Potentially *every* browser connections is going to result in session synchronization with the subsite and ueue.evolt.org... I think that the unified session is a bit of creeping featurism to UEUE, but I'm interested in understanding more. Mark -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From roselli at earthlink.net Fri Nov 9 10:06:36 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Fri Nov 9 10:06:36 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109015909.0288cd90@203.197.12.4> Message-ID: <3BEAE783.7787.BC1CE137@localhost> > From: Madhu Menon [...] > What do you think? i think it's done... http://evolt.org/guide_code/index.html From mnickel at new.rr.com Fri Nov 9 10:06:37 2001 From: mnickel at new.rr.com (Mark Nickel) Date: Fri Nov 9 10:06:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE? Message-ID: <3BEB6360.D478EE1D@new.rr.com> Ok, I'm sensing a bit of "go back to the drawing board" feeling with this whole thread... I think that all our security paranoid, no matter how justified (which I believe is valid), is causing us to question heavily the possibility of a cookie-based UEUE. Remember, the O'Reilly solution worked because all subsite where directly controlled by O'Reilly. In our case, we are planning on opening this up to sites not directly under our control. Personally, I believe that the solution proposed in my Biometrics Post is the One TrueWay(tm): http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-November/1564197.html :) Please correct me if I'm wrong, I've a thick skin, but won't a XML-RPC based solution take longer to implement because of the experience level of us? I've never really done a XML-RPC application. I totally understand how to do it, but I've never actually coded something before... That's why I thought the cookie solution was good, easy, simple, quick to get up and running... I know that it's a bit questionable on the security side... Is that question enough to prevent this from being a successful application? Dan, I know that we keep getting hung up on trying to include m.e.o. into the UEUE mix. You've said several times that we should ignore this X-factor... Can we really do that? At what point do we say, enough with this discussion, fricken code something and move on..! ?? :) I'm having a problem ignoring m.e.o. which is probably adding to my wishy-washy stance on this... So, slap me with a trout if this is ranting too much.. :) :) I'm going to take the concepts posted here on thesite and pull together a UEUE v.0.2a document that's XML-RPC based just for the funsies of it... I'm also going to study some of the links you dug up, Dan, on this whole SSO stuff... Anything open source that jumped out at you? Mark -- "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly." -Batman costume warning label From michele at wordpro.on.ca Fri Nov 9 10:26:37 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Fri Nov 9 10:26:37 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles References: <3BEAE783.7787.BC1CE137@localhost> Message-ID: <023d01c1693b$0e5c4700$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Adrian, Do you want to add them to the "Allowed Tags" list, later on in the FAQ? Mich ----- Original Message ----- From: "aardvark" | | i think it's done... | | http://evolt.org/guide_code/index.html From roselli at earthlink.net Fri Nov 9 10:40:22 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Fri Nov 9 10:40:22 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles In-Reply-To: <023d01c1693b$0e5c4700$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: <200111091637.fA9GbajE003525@leo.evolt.org> >From: "Michele Foster" > > Do you want to add them to the "Allowed Tags" list, later on in the > FAQ? whoops... From djc at members.evolt.org Fri Nov 9 11:22:21 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Nov 9 11:22:21 2001 Subject: [thesite] changelog updates Message-ID: <3BEC10EF.4080504@members.evolt.org> matt, jeff - can you two update the changelog in the evolttest public_html directory with the changes you made at or after codefest please? thanks! .djc. From evolt at spinhead.com Fri Nov 9 12:01:08 2001 From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead) Date: Fri Nov 9 12:01:08 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109015909.0288cd90@203.197.12.4> <20011108220310.7d38e9f9.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> Message-ID: <000001c16946$9d4b27a0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Confusing. If I have to stop with each group of letters that's not a word and decide if it's an acronym or an abbreviation, it adds complexity without (as far as I know) adding value. But, does using both abbreviation and acronym add value that I'm missing? spinhead [ . . . ] > What about including the acronym tag as well? > [ . . . ] From mwarden at mattwarden.com Fri Nov 9 12:58:39 2001 From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt) Date: Fri Nov 9 12:58:39 2001 Subject: [thesite] [UEUE] Unified Sessions req. for more details In-Reply-To: <3BEB64E5.4FDC7EF4@new.rr.com> Message-ID: On Nov 8, Mark Nickel had something to say about [thesite] [UEUE] Unified... >Potentially *every* browser connections is going to result in session >synchronization with the subsite and ueue.evolt.org... Why would that be? Maybe there's some security concern I'm not thinking of. The query to ueue would only happen when session information doesn't exist or, for some reason, is invalid. From then on, the app can grab the info from the session, like weo does now. And, like i said, if someone goes from weo to deo, and deo needs certain information, deo wouldn't have an active session for this user, so it treats them as unauthenticated (except for maybe username/pw in cookie) and authenticates with ueue. Then it builds its own session. There are now two active sessions for the same user (one in CF, one in PHP), but that should be ok... I think. -- mattwarden mattwarden.com From roselli at earthlink.net Fri Nov 9 12:58:43 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Fri Nov 9 12:58:43 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles In-Reply-To: <000001c16946$9d4b27a0$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Message-ID: <200111091811.fA9IBojE007926@leo.evolt.org> > From: "spinhead" > > Confusing. If I have to stop with each group of letters that's not a > word and decide if it's an acronym or an abbreviation, it adds > complexity without (as far as I know) adding value. But, does using > both abbreviation and acronym add value that I'm missing? > > [ . . . ] > > What about including the acronym tag as well? > > [ . . . ] if you check out the code style guide (http://evolt.org/guide_code/), you'll see that IE5+/win (for example) doesn't display a tool-tip on , but it does display it no ... N6/win does it for both, thankfully... as an author, though, you generally want to make your articles easy to read and understand, and while i don't think and is something we'll strictly enforce (i'm not gonna expect it on HTML, for instance, given our audience), it's certainly a nice thing to take that extra step when coding it... IOW, if you don't want to take the time, that's up to you, but i think it does add value... From webguru at vsnl.net Fri Nov 9 13:58:56 2001 From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon) Date: Fri Nov 9 13:58:56 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles In-Reply-To: <20011109064315.2F68D9A8@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110004637.02811a20@203.197.12.4> At 12:13 PM 11/9/2001, you wrote: >Confusing. If I have to stop with each group of letters that's not a word >and decide if it's an acronym or an abbreviation, it adds complexity without >(as far as I know) adding value. But, does using both abbreviation and >acronym add value that I'm missing? Well... one elegant solution for this is to use the tag only for the first instance of the acronym or abbreviation. So, you're talking about J2EE in article, use it only the first time it's mentioned. As for when to add it, I would have to say, "use common sense". Like Adrian said, HTML, URL, HTTP etc. that come in the "things you better know before you become a web developer" category don't require explaining. Something like "802.11" or "NAT" *does*. It also depends on your audience. If you're writing for a larger audience, it's to your credit if they understand you. If your audience is smaller and speak the jargon of the trade, you can do without the tags. Madhu <<< * >>> Madhu Menon User Experience Consultant e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net From evolt at spinhead.com Fri Nov 9 13:59:01 2001 From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead) Date: Fri Nov 9 13:59:01 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles References: <200111091811.fA9IBojE007926@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <000d01c16954$577ca380$080a000a@HEISENBERG> Good points. I just noticed the display/non-display on the updated evolt page. In that case, I'm more likely to use 'acronym' for both, since it apparently displays more consistently. Re: writing style, I spell out potentially confusing/unknown abbreviations and acronyms on first use anyway, so this is just icing. Thanks joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "aardvark" To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles > > From: "spinhead" > > > > Confusing. If I have to stop with each group of letters that's not a > > word and decide if it's an acronym or an abbreviation, it adds > > complexity without (as far as I know) adding value. But, does using > > both abbreviation and acronym add value that I'm missing? > > > > [ . . . ] > > > What about including the acronym tag as well? > > > [ . . . ] > > if you check out the code style guide (http://evolt.org/guide_code/), > you'll see that IE5+/win (for example) doesn't display a tool-tip on > , but it does display it no ... N6/win does it for > both, thankfully... > > as an author, though, you generally want to make your articles > easy to read and understand, and while i don't think and > is something we'll strictly enforce (i'm not gonna > expect it on HTML, for instance, given our audience), it's certainly a > nice thing to take that extra step when coding it... > > IOW, if you don't want to take the time, that's up to you, but i think > it does add value... > > > > _______________________________________________ > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to: > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite > From webguru at vsnl.net Fri Nov 9 13:59:05 2001 From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon) Date: Fri Nov 9 13:59:05 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles In-Reply-To: <20011109064315.2F68D9A8@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110005422.00afc730@203.197.12.4> At 12:13 PM 11/9/2001, you wrote: >if you check out the code style guide (http://evolt.org/guide_code/), >you'll see that IE5+/win (for example) doesn't display a tool-tip on >, but it does display it no ... N6/win does it for >both, thankfully... Aardvark, While it works, there's no visual cue to the reader that he can hover his mouse there and get an explanation. How about if we styled the tag like this: CURSOR: help; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px dotted (Found this on some web site but forgot the URL) It's a real bummer that IE doesn't show a tooltip for . Let's stick to then and ignore the semantic difference, eh? Madhu <<< * >>> Madhu Menon User Experience Consultant e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net From djc at members.evolt.org Fri Nov 9 14:22:19 2001 From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody) Date: Fri Nov 9 14:22:19 2001 Subject: [thesite] Re: [Admin] Article Update - evolt.org Source Code In-Reply-To: <200111092014.fA9KEwjF012442@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: The NS6/Mozilla sidebar is also working now. Thanks to morbus for helping with the RDF formatting! .djc. On Fri, 9 Nov 2001 info at evolt.org wrote: > > > An article on thesite has been updated by an admin. > > Date: 11/09/2001 > Time: 2:17 PM CST(-0600) > Admin: djc > > Reason cited for the update: > > updated rdf link > > Article: evolt.org Source Code > Author: dmah > > Synopsis: > > Want to build your own Web community? Want to help make evolt.org better? Take a look at the code to get you started. > > Article: > >

One of the founding tenets of evolt.org is to build better Web > communities. As well, evolt.org continues to grow and thrive based on the contributions of all of its members. With that in mind, here you will find a lot of the code and tools that make up evolt.org which > members have contributed. So whether you are building your own > community and want to avoid "reinventing the wheel," want to take a look to get some ideas and learn from a living example, or you want to chip in and make evolt.org better, grab the code and have some fun.

> >

All of the code that you find here is released under the > GNU > General Public License. If you do not know what that means, please > take a quick second to read the license to get the gist of it.

> >

Available Now

> >
> >
Perl Tip ? > > http://evolt.org/evolt_source_code/ > > Thank you! > > > ___________________________________________________ > if con is the opposite of pro, then would the > opposite of progress be congress? > From roselli at earthlink.net Fri Nov 9 14:22:23 2001 From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark) Date: Fri Nov 9 14:22:23 2001 Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110005422.00afc730@203.197.12.4> References: <20011109064315.2F68D9A8@relay.evolt.org> Message-ID: <200111092012.fA9KChjE012378@leo.evolt.org> > From: Madhu Menon > > While it works, there's no visual cue to the reader that he can hover > his mouse there and get an explanation. correct, i hadn't gotten to that yet... last night went from being productive to something else... it was a good something else... even though my apartment is missing 5 windows and it got rather chilly last night... > How about if we styled the tag like this: > > CURSOR: help; > BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px dotted > > (Found this on some web site but forgot the URL) yeah, i saw that article, too... oh, wiat, here it is: http://alistapart.com/stories/practicalcss/ ok, whomever has access to the master evolt CSS file(s) might want to add this to it/them (isaac.css): abbr, acronym, .help { border-bottom : 1px dotted #000000 ; } if you want, add cursor : help ; , although i must admit that i'm not a big fan of that... the class .help is handy should we decide we want that effect on other things with titles but that aren't in or tags... i suggest black as the default for the regular site because the dark green won't have enough contrast and i fear it may recede too much... but whomever does it, feel free to play... > It's a real bummer that IE doesn't show a tooltip for . Let's > stick to then and ignore the semantic difference, eh? er, no thanks, i'd really much rather not... if we decide to use semantic markup, let's use it correctly and let the browser makers catch up... i know that sounds a bit silly, but i code Comments: 1 - [not rated] The tag isn't closed around Comments and then the Rating link isn't there at all. Hence, the Comments: 1 - [not rated] is being linked as to the Comments. I dunno if this is cause by there being no ratings for this particular article or not. Guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to see the next revived article ;) Thanks, Mich From jeff at members.evolt.org Fri Nov 9 16:35:51 2001 From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff) Date: Fri Nov 9 16:35:51 2001 Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file In-Reply-To: <02af01c16969$4bc0e5a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> Message-ID: michele, ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > From: Michele Foster > > Hi Folks (specifically Adrian ;) > > Since I'm updating the CSS files this weekend ..... I > just want to make sure there are no objections to the > following additions, as discussed this week: > > abbr, acronym, .help { border-bottom : 1px dotted #000000 ; } > > a.pagetitle1:link > { text-decoration : underline ; > color : #XXXXXX ; } /* PageTitleLinkColor */ > > a.pagetitle1:visited > { text-decoration : underline ; > color : #XXXXXX ; } /* PageTitleVisitedColor */ > > a.pagetitle1:hover > { text-decoration : underline ; > color : #XXXXXX ; } /* PageTitleHoverColor */ ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< don't forget the additional pieces i pointed out in the stylesheet thread that brought up this suggestion. a.pagetitle1:active a.pagetitle2:link a.pagetitle2:visited a.pagetitle2:hover a.pagetitle2:active http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-November/1564142.html additionally, the html on t.e.o. will need to be updated to reflect these changes. thanks, .jeff http://evolt.org/ jeff at members.evolt.org http://members.evolt.org/jeff/ From michele at wordpro.on.ca Fri Nov 9 16:50:06 2001 From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster) Date: Fri Nov 9 16:50:06 2001 Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file References: <200111092203.fA9M3GjE016200@leo.evolt.org> Message-ID: <02ca01c1696f$dd9c9f40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "aardvark" | > From: "Michele Foster" | [...] | > abbr, acronym, .help { border-bottom : 1px dotted #000000 ; } | | #000000; should be based on something... | | /* HRColor */? | /* CodeTextColor */? | | yeah... something like that... black won't work in all situations, | obviously... | | i'll defer to your judgment on this... /* PrimaryTextColor */ Probably the most logical in this case .. we don't want them to stand out too much. btw, I'm looking through the CSS now .. and for the life of me can't figure out what ".code" is for? Do you remember off hand, Adrian? The only difference between "code" and ".code" is assignment of a background-color, but why? Could the ".code" just be a left-over from before code was put into 
 tags and styled based on the textarea?

Thanks,

Michele







From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov  9 16:50:10 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:50:10 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o styles..
In-Reply-To: <3BEC566A.9070103@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> was just about to push up t.e.o to live and wanted to
> log out.
>
> Error resolving parameter APP.SESSION.USER.SCHEME
>
> The object SCHEME is not present in the scope named
> APP.SESSION.USER. It is likely that you have
> misspelled the name of the object you are trying to
> access.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

shit, i thought i'd found all instances of that occurring.  apparently not.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> and i thought, "funny, i don't remember using a scope
> like that."
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

you weren't.  and the reads and writes to the session scope weren't being
locked.  so, i killed one half of that by doing a readonly lock in
application.cfm and using the duplicate() function to copy the session scope
into app.session.  that makes all reads to app.session possible without the
need for locking.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> also, when you somehow do get the page to reload for
> you and log back in, it doesn't remember what stylesheet
> you used. untill you log back out that is!!
>
> crazy wacky fun!
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

no clue why that's happening.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> next time, instead of effectively re-writting the work
> i've done, let me know so i can spend the time
> elsewhere. and make sure it works.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i didn't rewrite your code.  i only tightened up and tweaked what was
already there.  at least it works better now than it did before i started.

have a good one,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov  9 16:50:14 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:50:14 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] on teo - Revived Article
In-Reply-To: <02bf01c1696d$a6b7ce20$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
> 
> Before teo gets moved to live... there's a small bug in
> the new "Revived Article" feature.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

fixed.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov  9 16:51:06 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov  9 16:51:06 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
References: 
Message-ID: <02cf01c16971$76c61b00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Hey Jeff,

I didn't ignore what you suggested ... but .....


----- Original Message -----
From: ".jeff" 

| don't forget the additional pieces i pointed out in the stylesheet thread
| that brought up this suggestion.
|
| a.pagetitle1:active


We don't have "active" anywhere else .. anyone have any idea why? (Adrian,
Isaac??)


| a.pagetitle2:link
| a.pagetitle2:visited
| a.pagetitle2:hover
| a.pagetitle2:active

I didn't do pagetitle2 because:




User-Defined Window
Targeting w/ JavaScript
Author: .jeff



The title is being classed based on the 
 and the author (and link) is
being classed based on the class "content".

However, .... damnit .. there is no class called "content" .. so, ummm..
?????

I dunno what to do or what should be done .. I'd be a lot more comfortable
if someone else would take over fixing up the main CSS file .. so that we
have a "good" one to work from.  Any chance I can entice Adrian or Issac to
do this, please?

Thanks,

Michele






From webguru at vsnl.net  Fri Nov  9 17:06:59 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Fri Nov  9 17:06:59 2001
Subject: [thesite] Eliminating jargon in articles
In-Reply-To: <20011109064315.2F68D9A8@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110043411.02813038@203.197.12.4>

At 12:13 PM 11/9/2001, you wrote:
>URL is never an acronym...

I agree, but not everyone does.


>those who use it as such should be shot...

I respectfully direct your attention, sir, to the following URL:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=Duke+of+URL

;)

Happy shooting spree.

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov  9 17:13:21 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov  9 17:13:21 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o styles..
References: 
Message-ID: <3BEC62FD.1040707@members.evolt.org>

'at least'? it doesn't show the style if you're logged in, and it throws 
an error if you log out!
why not just send me a note, "Dan, heres what could be done better"?

i don't see the point of me or anyone else writting code for this if 
you're just going to 'tweak' it till you're happy with it and then not 
tell anyone.

...

.jeff wrote:

> i didn't rewrite your code.  i only tightened up and tweaked what was
> already there.  at least it works better now than it did before i started.






From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  9 17:59:44 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov  9 17:59:44 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <02ca01c1696f$dd9c9f40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <200111092359.fA9NxhjE021403@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "Michele Foster" 
[...] 
> btw, I'm looking through the CSS now .. and for the life of me can't
> figure out what ".code" is for?  Do you remember off hand, Adrian? 
> The only difference between "code" and ".code" is assignment of a
> background-color, but why?  Could the ".code" just be a left-over from
> before code was put into 
 tags and styled based on the textarea?

.code is for textareas full of code... which we still do, so you should 
leave that in place...

whereas code handles the  tag... so you should leave that 
in place as well...




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov  9 18:05:20 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov  9 18:05:20 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
References: <200111092359.fA9NxhjE021403@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <030501c1697b$eb68eaa0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: "aardvark" 


| > From: "Michele Foster" 
| [...]
| > btw, I'm looking through the CSS now .. and for the life of me can't
| > figure out what ".code" is for?  Do you remember off hand, Adrian?
| > The only difference between "code" and ".code" is assignment of a
| > background-color, but why?  Could the ".code" just be a left-over from
| > before code was put into 
 tags and styled based on the textarea?
|
| .code is for textareas full of code... which we still do, so you should
| leave that in place...

Ok, gotcha .. so the textarea colour is being overwritten if the
class="code" is used.  That makes sense now.  Sorry for the dumb
questions... I'm just trying to figure out what goes with what.

Thanks,

Mich





From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  9 18:11:56 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov  9 18:11:56 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <02cf01c16971$76c61b00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <200111100011.fAA0BtjE022047@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "Michele Foster" 
[...] 
> I dunno what to do or what should be done .. I'd be a lot more
> comfortable if someone else would take over fixing up the main CSS
> file .. so that we have a "good" one to work from.  Any chance I can
> entice Adrian or Issac to do this, please?

er... mccreath was the last keeper of the CSS... there's been so 
much changed in there that i have no idea what's up...

oh, wait... this used to be in there:

td.content	{	line-height : 130% ; }

we removed that style because it was causing all sorts of problems 
in assorted browsers...




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov  9 18:25:42 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov  9 18:25:42 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
References: <200111100011.fAA0BtjE022047@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <031001c1697e$c53d28c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: "aardvark" 

| er... mccreath was the last keeper of the CSS... there's been so
| much changed in there that i have no idea what's up...

Unfortunately, David's not around now ..  :(

|
| oh, wait... this used to be in there:
|
| td.content { line-height : 130% ; }

Yeah, saw that commented out.

|
| we removed that style because it was causing all sorts of problems
| in assorted browsers...

Makes sense.

However, the references are still being used in two spots within an article
view (not sure about other pages, yet).

Can you tell me what to do with Jeff's suggested additions please, with
respect to pagetitle2. The only place where a link is now, is for the
Author's linked name.




User-Defined Window
Targeting w/ JavaScript
Author: .jeff



So, my questions are .... and these are probably dumb .. but I don't wanna
mess it all up.

Should the three link classes be created for "pageTitle2" ?  Should the
 above be deleted all together?  Or do we still want
the  tags there?  If we want the  tags, will the link classes
defined for pageTitle2 be used or should they instead be defined for use
within the  tag?   ACK  ;)

And what about "active" state?  Not defined elsewhere, should it be?

Thanks,

Michele





From webguru at vsnl.net  Fri Nov  9 23:56:55 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Fri Nov  9 23:56:55 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <20011110005459.63F03BFB2@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110111915.00b08e18@203.197.12.4>

At 06:24 AM 11/10/2001, you wrote:
>er... mccreath was the last keeper of the CSS... there's been so
>much changed in there that i have no idea what's up...

Which brings up a good point. Are we treating the evolt.org project like a 
"real" site development project. If so, there must be revision history 
records for all changes made to code, css, etc. At my last company, there 
was no such thing when I joined. Everyone working on the project had access 
to the CSS files. When something went wrong, the finger-pointing would begin.

I solved the problem by introducing a strict version control process for 
all elements of the project, including the CSS. I only let the Production 
Lead and the Site Producer control the CSS file, and if something needed to 
be changed, there would be a note made in the revision history explaining 
what was changed and why it was necessary to change it. This increased 
accountability and also made it easier to convince clients when they said 
things like, "hey, I never asked for that to be changed to purple!".

Shouldn't we have the same? It's trivial to do this in something like 
Excel. Heck, even a text file would do. A simplified version for the CSS 
would record:

1) Date
2) Changes made - what was added, what was removed
3) Change made by [author]
4) Reason for change
5) Impact analysis - what parts of the site it will affect (OK, you can 
leave this out if you're so inclined)

None of us have perfect memories. 6 months down the road, you might be left 
wondering why you don't have .hover for a certain class. Let's make a 
simple text file to record these changes somewhere.

Regards,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From garrett at polytechnic.co.uk  Sat Nov 10 07:54:23 2001
From: garrett at polytechnic.co.uk (Garrett Coakley)
Date: Sat Nov 10 07:54:23 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110111915.00b08e18@203.197.12.4>
References: <20011110005459.63F03BFB2@relay.evolt.org>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20011110111915.00b08e18@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <20011110124108.3137f583.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk>

On Sat, 10 Nov 2001 11:27:26 +0530
Madhu Menon  wrote:

> Which brings up a good point. Are we treating the evolt.org project
> like a "real" site development project. If so, there must be revision
> history records for all changes made to code, css, etc.

[snip]

> Shouldn't we have the same? It's trivial to do this in something like 
> Excel. 

[snip]


+1, but not Excel, thats just another layer that someone needs to
remember to update. 

Just start using CVS (Concurrent Versioning System). All updates to code
will be logged with who, what and when automatically. If people forget
to update Changelogs at least the system will have a record of the last
person to change a file and we'll be able to generate diffs to see
exactly what they did.

I've said this before, and no doubt I'll say it again, I can't
understand why a project the size and scope of the evolt.org network is
not using a versioning system. 


G.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WORK: http://spiked.co.uk/
PLAY: http://polytechnic.co.uk/



From martin at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 10 08:46:00 2001
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Sat Nov 10 08:46:00 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
Message-ID: 

Garrett Coakley wrote on 10/11/01 12:41 pm

>+1, but not Excel, thats just another layer that someone needs to
>remember to update. 
>
>Just start using CVS (Concurrent Versioning System). All updates to code
>will be logged with who, what and when automatically. If people forget
>to update Changelogs at least the system will have a record of the last
>person to change a file and we'll be able to generate diffs to see
>exactly what they did.
>
>I've said this before, and no doubt I'll say it again, I can't
>understand why a project the size and scope of the evolt.org network is
>not using a versioning system. 

For both code and content (it's pretty normal for a CMS too).

Cheers
Martin

_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
       martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
  tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985                      Edinburgh,
  url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk                 Scotland




From martin at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 10 12:03:51 2001
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Sat Nov 10 12:03:51 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
Message-ID: 

Mark Nickel wrote on 9/11/01 5:02 am

>I think that all our security paranoid, no matter how justified (which I
>believe is valid), is causing us to question heavily the possibility of
>a cookie-based UEUE.  Remember, the O'Reilly solution worked because all
>subsite where directly controlled by O'Reilly.  In our case, we are
>planning on opening this up to sites not directly under our control.

I think that is the one single core stumbling block of a cookie
solution.

Unless we leave out meo of course.

>Please correct me if I'm wrong, I've a thick skin, but won't a XML-RPC
>based solution take longer to implement because of the experience level
>of us?  I've never really done a XML-RPC application.  I totally
>understand how to do it, but I've never actually coded something
>before...

Possibly so, but as we're not on VC-specified timescales, does
this matter? And isn't an opportunity to learn A Good Thing?

Cheers
Martin

_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
       martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
  tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985                      Edinburgh,
  url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk                 Scotland




From roselli at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 11 11:01:12 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Sun Nov 11 11:01:12 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <031001c1697e$c53d28c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <3BEE68A8.25908.C9CD5B7E@localhost>

sorry for the late response... i, er, had to go on friday...

> From: "Michele Foster" 
> |
> | td.content { line-height : 130% ; }
[...] 
> However, the references are still being used in two spots within an
> article view (not sure about other pages, yet).
> 
> Can you tell me what to do with Jeff's suggested additions please,
> with respect to pagetitle2. The only place where a link is now, is for
> the Author's linked name.
> 
> 
> 
> 
User-Defined
> Window Targeting w/ JavaScript
Author:  href="/user/jeff/15/index.html" title="Author info!">.jeff
> 
> 
> 
> So, my questions are .... and these are probably dumb .. but I don't
> wanna mess it all up.
> 
> Should the three link classes be created for "pageTitle2" ?  Should
> the  above be deleted all together?  Or do we

class="content" should be gutted, IMO... it was for the content 
area of the page only, and meant to sit in a , and neither of 
those applies, so i'd cut it from ... after all, it only controls 
line-height, right?

> still want the  tags there?  If we want the  tags, will
> the link classes defined for pageTitle2 be used or should they instead
> be defined for use within the  tag?   ACK  ;)

leave the ... i don't think it's a 100% perfect usage of the 
tags, but someone else felt they were, and with the itnerpretation of 
the specs so open, it's not worth worrying about...

> And what about "active" state?  Not defined elsewhere, should it be?

maybe i'm on crack, but i see no reason to define a new a set of 
pseudo-classes... the generic a pseudo-classes cascade well 
enough...

just seems like spaghetti to me...




From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com  Sun Nov 11 15:52:23 2001
From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com)
Date: Sun Nov 11 15:52:23 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2AF@arnold.bedrock.com>

Martin replied to Mark who said:

| >Please correct me if I'm wrong, I've a thick skin, but won't 
| a XML-RPC
| >based solution take longer to implement because of the 
| experience level
| >of us?  I've never really done a XML-RPC application.  I totally
| >understand how to do it, but I've never actually coded something
| >before...
|
| Possibly so, but as we're not on VC-specified timescales, does
| this matter? And isn't an opportunity to learn A Good Thing?

This landed in that sweet spot where we ask "do we get to play with it _and_
have fun?"

I am with Mark Nickel on terms of "understand, haven't done," as perhaps are
others.

Keeping an eye on the forces which govern development on the site, though, I
can also perceive other risks which may need to be investigated before we
put fingertip to keyboard. Not being raised on the milk and honey of
thecode, however, I may as well be naive as to what these are, precisely. 

I think that a relevant and initial question in a decision about UEUE might
be: do we need a solution to a problem right away, or can we develop
something which will benefit evolt, but take our time to learn it and play
for fun?





From martin at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 11 16:51:33 2001
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Sun Nov 11 16:51:33 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
Message-ID: 

Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com wrote on 11/11/01 9:59 pm

>Keeping an eye on the forces which govern development on the site, though, I
>can also perceive other risks which may need to be investigated before we
>put fingertip to keyboard.

Investigating risks is always a useful thing, even if it's just a quick
sketch, so we know what we're letting ourselves in for and can make
sensible decisions based on an understanding of the risks.

>I think that a relevant and initial question in a decision about UEUE might
>be: do we need a solution to a problem right away, or can we develop
>something which will benefit evolt, but take our time to learn it and play
>for fun?

Or alternatively:
Is what we have good enough for the time being (if not the ideal
situation)?

Cheers
Martin

_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
       martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
  tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985                      Edinburgh,
  url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk                 Scotland




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Sun Nov 11 17:11:36 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Sun Nov 11 17:11:36 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 11, Martin had something to say about RE: [thesite] Back to the...

>Or alternatively:
>Is what we have good enough for the time being (if not the ideal
>situation)?

No, unless you feel that stunting other projects like f.e.o is acceptable.

What I have there now is such a messy kludge and I don't even have certain
situations figured out.

I see this as a step towards expansion. It's almost like building a second
part of a city across a river, having no bridge or other structure to
allow for anyone to reach it. You can put people on one side of the other,
but it becomes a royal pain in the ass if someone wants to go from one
side to the other.

Let's build the bridge. I'm personally getting tired of trying to get my
monkey vine(1) to substitute. I'd certainly be willing to help out with
UEUE, especially (even?) if we go the XML data transfer route.

And, not to be a semanticsnazi, but I believe XML-RPC isn't exactly what
we'd be using. XML-RPC is a way for language A on server A to call a
procedure in language B, optionally on server B. That's my understanding,
anyways. We'd be doing a straight data transfer using XML and
HTTP. Similar, but I don't think the same.

Just my $0.02.

Ok, back to literal speech...


--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com



(1) - thick, rope-like vine that hangs from trees near water
(usually). used often to swing on into or across water.





From martin at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 11 17:58:14 2001
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Sun Nov 11 17:58:14 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
Message-ID: 

Warden, Matt wrote on 11/11/01 11:13 pm

>>Or alternatively:
>>Is what we have good enough for the time being (if not the ideal
>>situation)?
>
>No, unless you feel that stunting other projects like f.e.o is acceptable.

So do I understand you right - what we have now runs what we have
in production now well enough, but won't run other things we
have in the pipeline like feo?

Cheers
Martin

_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
       martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
  tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985                      Edinburgh,
  url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk                 Scotland




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Sun Nov 11 18:05:14 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Sun Nov 11 18:05:14 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 12, Martin had something to say about RE: [thesite] Back to the...

>>>Or alternatively:
>>>Is what we have good enough for the time being (if not the ideal
>>>situation)?
>>
>>No, unless you feel that stunting other projects like f.e.o is acceptable.
>
>So do I understand you right - what we have now runs what we have
>in production now well enough, but won't run other things we
>have in the pipeline like feo?

I think (that is, if *I* understand your question right). But, the whole
problem UEUE is trying to solve deals with the subsites... basically
trying to fit multiple sites into software that originally was built for a
single site.

So, yeah, w.e.o's fine now. But, like I said, the purpose of UEUE is to
"hook in" other sites without creating duplicates of things like the
member table, etc.

Make sense? Did I even answer your question?  ;-)


Thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 11 22:39:06 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 11 22:39:06 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <3BEE68A8.25908.C9CD5B7E@localhost>
Message-ID: 

adrian,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> > And what about "active" state?  Not defined elsewhere,
> > should it be?
>
> maybe i'm on crack, but i see no reason to define a new
> a set of pseudo-classes... the generic a pseudo-classes
> cascade well enough...
>
> just seems like spaghetti to me...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

are you referring to the :active pseudo class?  or, are you talking about my
suggested changes to the base css?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 11 22:51:23 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 11 22:51:23 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <02cf01c16971$76c61b00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> I didn't ignore what you suggested ... but .....
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

ok

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> We don't have "active" anywhere else .. anyone have any
> idea why? (Adrian, Isaac??)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

not having it should be considered an oversight then.  to be semantically
correct, we should be defining the :active pseudo class for all links.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> I didn't do pagetitle2 because:
>
> 
>
> 
> 
User-Defined Window Targeting w/ JavaScript

> Author:   href="/user/jeff/15/index.html" title="Author info!"
> >.jeff
>
> 
>
> The title is being classed based on the 
 and the
> author (and link) is being classed based on the class
> "content".
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

*but* there is nothing styling the  tag, which is what i'm saying is the
problem.  we just need to throw a class of pagetitle2 on the  tag in that
cell and put the corresponding css in the stylesheet.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 12 00:38:03 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Mon Nov 12 00:38:03 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o styles..
In-Reply-To: <3BEC62FD.1040707@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> it doesn't show the style if you're logged in, [...]
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

it does for me.  it doesn't pull the appropriate scheme from the user's
preferences when you initially logged in, but it hasn't ever done that.
however, if you're using "remember me" and come back to the site after
choosing and saving a scheme it will use that scheme when displaying the
site.

anyway, it just took all of 30 seconds to fix this problem.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> and it throws an error if you log out!
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

easily fixable.  fwiw, it was throwing that error before i worked on it as
well, it just wasn't prefaced with "app.".

anyway, i found the source of that particular problem and have fixed it.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> why not just send me a note, "Dan, heres what could be
> done better"?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

precedent.  we've never really done it that way.  practically since the
beginning i've gone in and made performance enhancements where i've seen the
need.  why should i do it any different now?  this is all sort of confusing
to me though, didn't you already thank me for stepping in and working on it?

http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-November/1564130.html

it's like anything, we need to test to find bugs.  i can't be expected to
find *every* possible one.  that's why we have a staging site to begin with.
if you find something, know what the problem is, and have time to fix it
then take care of it yourself.  if not, send a notice to me via thesite list
and i'll address it if i have time.  however, *don't* complain because i try
to help.  that's not too much to ask is it?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i don't see the point of me or anyone else writting code
> for this if you're just going to 'tweak' it till you're
> happy with it and then not tell anyone.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i don't want to upset anybody by reporting back that i fixed some code i
thought was causing performance issues, could be written smoother, was just
straight up sloppy, or whatever.  however, my urge to make the site perform
to its maximum outweighs this.  it's not like i'm trying to hide anything.
if anybody asks, i'm more than happy to talk about changes.  i'm just not
going to make it a point to go into detail about every little nuance that
was altered.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 12 00:45:12 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Mon Nov 12 00:45:12 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

martin,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Martin
>
> > I think that all our security paranoid, no matter how
> > justified (which I believe is valid), is causing us
> > to question heavily the possibility of a cookie-based
> > UEUE.  Remember, the O'Reilly solution worked because
> > all subsite where directly controlled by O'Reilly.
> > In our case, we are planning on opening this up to
> > sites not directly under our control.
>
> I think that is the one single core stumbling block of
> a cookie solution.
>
> Unless we leave out meo of course.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

that's just the thing though.  leaving out m.e.o. is *very* difficult.  the
only way to do it is to do something that would render ueue almost useless
and that's to set cookies for fully-qualified domains (ie, admin.evolt.org)
instead of the evolt.org domain as a whole (.evolt.org).  doing this means
there won't be any authentication cookies for m.e.o to send/receive, thereby
giving us the needed peace of mind.  however, it now means that the
authentication process would have to set a cookie for *every* site that
needs to "hook in".  see the difference?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From roselli at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 12 00:59:49 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Mon Nov 12 00:59:49 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BEE68A8.25908.C9CD5B7E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BEF2D31.3941.CCCD11E4@localhost>

> From: ".jeff" 
>
> are you referring to the :active pseudo class?  or, are you talking
> about my suggested changes to the base css?

adding pseudo-classes... see next post...



From roselli at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 12 01:08:01 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Mon Nov 12 01:08:01 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: 
References: <02cf01c16971$76c61b00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <3BEF2F23.7155.CCD4AB58@localhost>

> From: ".jeff" 
> 
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > We don't have "active" anywhere else .. anyone have any
> > idea why? (Adrian, Isaac??)
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> not having it should be considered an oversight then.  to be
> semantically correct, we should be defining the :active pseudo class
> for all links.

right now we've got:
a:link
a:visited
a:hover

so, change the :hover to :active, but don't add it...

> > The title is being classed based on the 
 and the
> > author (and link) is being classed based on the class
> > "content".
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> *but* there is nothing styling the  tag, which is what i'm saying
> is the problem.  we just need to throw a class of pagetitle2 on the
>  tag in that cell and put the corresponding css in the
> stylesheet.

*why*?  i don't see why we need to do that, it hasn't been 
necessary for a year now, no one seems to have problems with it 
as-is...  it doesn't make the code more correct... if anything, it 
means we have to class another element, which doesn't seem 
necessary...

i guess i need to know why the  needs a class...  so far, i 
haven't heard anything, unless i've missed it in the early part of the 
thread...




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 12 01:18:34 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Mon Nov 12 01:18:34 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <3BEF2F23.7155.CCD4AB58@localhost>
Message-ID: 

aardvark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> > not having it should be considered an oversight then.
> > to be semantically correct, we should be defining the
> > :active pseudo class for all links.
>
> right now we've got:
> a:link
> a:visited
> a:hover
>
> so, change the :hover to :active, but don't add it...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

huh?  i think that's even worse.  out of the four pseudo classes, :active is
by far the least used.  however, in the interest of user controlled
stylesheets in the future, don't you think it has a place?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > *but* there is nothing styling the  tag, which is
> > what i'm saying is the problem.  we just need to
> > throw a class of pagetitle2 on the  tag in that
> > cell and put the corresponding css in the stylesheet.
>
> *why*?  i don't see why we need to do that, it hasn't
> been necessary for a year now, no one seems to have
> problems with it as-is...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

agreed.  and so long as we're the only ones providing the stylesheets for
the site it will likely not be an issue.  however, if we allow users to
create their own *then* it will become a problem.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i guess i need to know why the  needs a class...  so
> far, i haven't heard anything, unless i've missed it in
> the early part of the thread...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yes, i think you must have missed it because i had a very succinct argument
for it complete with an example.

go to http://test.evolt.org/
login
go to http://test.evolt.org/member/index.html?action=signup2 and select
evoltoldschool.css as your stylesheet
click save styles
go to http://test.evolt.org/article/view/17/16286/
notice the category (below the date) is invisible?

now, while still at this page, imagine if the cell to the right which
contains the article title and author link was this same blue?  the author
link would be invisible as well.  classing (and styling) these links
separately from the rest of the links in the main content area allow us to
resolve this problem now and in the future.

make sense?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From djc at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 12 12:25:23 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Nov 12 12:25:23 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
References: <20011110005459.63F03BFB2@relay.evolt.org>	<5.1.0.14.2.20011110111915.00b08e18@203.197.12.4> <20011110124108.3137f583.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3BF01446.5000108@members.evolt.org>

tried this once right after 2.0 was done. unfortunatly, no one else 
'bought-in' with it for a variety of reasons.(too difficult to use, not 
their style, easier to make changes to live code)

*shrug*

.djc.

Garrett Coakley wrote:


> Just start using CVS (Concurrent Versioning System). All updates to code
> will be logged with who, what and when automatically. If people forget
> to update Changelogs at least the system will have a record of the last
> person to change a file and we'll be able to generate diffs to see
> exactly what they did.





From djc at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 12 12:37:54 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Nov 12 12:37:54 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o styles..
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF01734.2020504@members.evolt.org>

.jeff wrote:


>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>why not just send me a note, "Dan, heres what could be
>>done better"?
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> precedent.  we've never really done it that way.  practically since the
> beginning i've gone in and made performance enhancements where i've seen the
> need.  why should i do it any different now?  


because the more you do this 'behind the scenes updates/whatever', the 
less other people trying to work on this site understand how things work.

a couple weeks ago we were talking about who would be comfortable 
working on the CF code for evolt. i'm not anymore because of the behind 
the scenes stuff you're doing and not telling anyone about or 
documenting anywhere but your own head.


> to me though, didn't you already thank me for stepping in and working on it?
> 
> http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-November/1564130.html


yes, i thanked you for finishing it up? does that make it ok that you 
pretty much changed the way i wrote it? i didnt even know it was done 
because you ddint say anything. my thanks was for what i thought was 
finishing my code. *not* for changing it and then not checking to see it 
worked 100%


> it's like anything, we need to test to find bugs.  i can't be expected to
> find *every* possible one.  that's why we have a staging site to begin with.


fuck *that*. if you're in there changing code, you can at least do minor 
bug testing, like logging out and back in. this isn't the 'jeff writes 
code and everyone else does QA' show.


> if you find something, know what the problem is, and have time to fix it
> then take care of it yourself.  if not, send a notice to me via thesite list
> and i'll address it if i have time.  however, *don't* complain because i try
> to help.  that's not too much to ask is it?


ya, it is. i'm not the bad guy here because i'm complaining about you 
making changes to what i did without telling anyone. i'm *not* 
complaining about you trying to help, so don't spin it that way.

seriously, if you can't be bothered to simply let people who are also 
trying to work with you on this know what you're doing, don't bother 
working on it at all.

 
> i don't want to upset anybody by reporting back that i fixed some code i
> thought was causing performance issues, could be written smoother, was just
> straight up sloppy, or whatever.  however, my urge to make the site perform
> to its maximum outweighs this.  it's not like i'm trying to hide anything.
> if anybody asks, i'm more than happy to talk about changes.  i'm just not
> going to make it a point to go into detail about every little nuance that
> was altered.

common, we're all big kids here... no one has a problem with hearing 
better ways to do things or your urge to make things better. 
people(myself being #1 probably and most vocal) have a problem with you 
changing code they may have written and not telling them about it.

thats the problem.

.djc.




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 12 14:52:16 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Mon Nov 12 14:52:16 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o styles..
In-Reply-To: <3BF01734.2020504@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> > [...] why should i do it any different now?
>
> because the more you do this 'behind the scenes
> updates/whatever', the less other people trying to work
> on this site understand how things work.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

funny, this is the first i've heard of this being a problem.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> a couple weeks ago we were talking about who would be
> comfortable working on the CF code for evolt. i'm not
> anymore because of the behind the scenes stuff you're
> doing and not telling anyone about or documenting
> anywhere but your own head.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

why is this suddenly a problem now?  in the 2+ years i've been working on
this it hasn't ever been brought up before.  so, i ask again, why now?

the statement "not telling anyone or documenting anywhere but your own head"
is not true.  most every change i've made has been reported in some fashion
to this list or commented in the code.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> yes, i thanked you for finishing it up? does that make
> it ok that you pretty much changed the way i wrote it?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

"you pretty much changed the way i wrote it" is a gross exaggeration.  the
only *big* changes i made were:

1) logic to take users who already had member records to
   the stylesheet page instead of the member
   creation/update page which was a requested change by
   several members of this list
2) "re-scoping" the session stuff so it wouldn't require
   locks for reading.

other than that i just cleaned up alittle spaghetti code, paramed some
variables to avoid possible errors, wrapped form values with Trim() and
Val() where appropriate, and removed some redundant code.

i did *not* rewrite it, although i still think it needs lots of work (maybe
that rewrite you keep blaming me for) before it's ready for production.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i didnt even know it was done because you ddint say
> anything.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

my apologies.  i've been busy.  it's hard to remember what little details
have been already taken care of and which ones still need attention.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> my thanks was for what i thought was finishing my code.
> *not* for changing it and then not checking to see it
> worked 100%
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

then i guess i shouldn't help unless i can completely finish the portion
that needs work?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > it's like anything, we need to test to find bugs.  i
> > can't be expected to find *every* possible one.
> > that's why we have a staging site to begin with.
>
> fuck *that*. if you're in there changing code, you can
> at least do minor bug testing, like logging out and
> back in.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

how do you know i didn't do that?  i did actually test the login/logout
portion of it as that was critical to seeing if it was working properly.
however, at the point i tested that it wasn't throwing any errors.  when i
made some changes, it started erroring (which i found through continued
testing) and i worked to fix those errors.  my mistake -- i thought i'd
found all the problems.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> this isn't the 'jeff writes code and everyone else does
> QA' show.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

where did i ever say it was?

aren't you getting just alittle accusatory?  what happened to just reporting
a bug when you find it?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > if you find something, know what the problem is, and
> > have time to fix it then take care of it yourself.
> > if not, send a notice to me via thesite list and i'll
> > address it if i have time.  however, *don't* complain
> > because i try to help.  that's not too much to ask is
> > it?
>
> ya, it is.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

sorry then.  i guess the 2+ years we've been doing it that way was a major
burden to you then.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i'm not the bad guy here because i'm complaining about
> you making changes to what i did without telling anyone.
> i'm *not* complaining about you trying to help, so don't
> spin it that way.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

that's not the feeling i get whenever i try to help on t.e.o. or make a
suggestion (see thread "user selectable style help").

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> seriously, if you can't be bothered to simply let people
> who are also trying to work with you on this know what
> you're doing, don't bother working on it at all.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

wait, you just said i shouldn't spin it like you're complaining about me
helping.  i'm not sure how else i can take the comment above.

your claims that i "can't be bothered to simply let people ... know what
you're doing" is utterly false.

what's this?
http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-October/1563989.html

and this?
http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-October/1563984.html

and this?
http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-October/1564004.html

these all contain information about changes i made to the code.  they're
also all in the last month.  i can go back through the archives and find
more if you think i haven't made my point yet.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> common, we're all big kids here... no one has a problem
> with hearing better ways to do things or your urge to
> make things better. people(myself being #1 probably and
> most vocal) have a problem with you changing code they
> may have written and not telling them about it.
>
> thats the problem.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

there is no problem except your perception of it (see above for proof).

are you sure this isn't all based on my lack of action on your request to
update the changelog?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From evolt at spinhead.com  Mon Nov 12 14:52:22 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Mon Nov 12 14:52:22 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
References: <20011110005459.63F03BFB2@relay.evolt.org>	<5.1.0.14.2.20011110111915.00b08e18@203.197.12.4> <20011110124108.3137f583.garrett@polytechnic.co.uk> <3BF01446.5000108@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <000701c16bb8$370714d0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

I think, though, if there's any possiblity of expanding the base of
potential coders, etc. this becomes a necessary evil, not a convenience.
Without versioning/source control, there's no chance we'll ever stay
professional.

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel J. Cody" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file


> tried this once right after 2.0 was done. unfortunatly, no one else
> 'bought-in' with it for a variety of reasons.(too difficult to use, not
> their style, easier to make changes to live code)
>
> *shrug*
>
> .djc.
>
> Garrett Coakley wrote:
>
>
> > Just start using CVS (Concurrent Versioning System). All updates to code
> > will be logged with who, what and when automatically. If people forget
> > to update Changelogs at least the system will have a record of the last
> > person to change a file and we'll be able to generate diffs to see
> > exactly what they did.
>
>





From djc at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 12 15:43:09 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Nov 12 15:43:09 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o styles..
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF04151.3000806@members.evolt.org>

.jeff wrote:

>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>From: Daniel J. Cody
>>
>>
>>>[...] why should i do it any different now?
>>>
>>because the more you do this 'behind the scenes
>>updates/whatever', the less other people trying to work
>>on this site understand how things work.
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> funny, this is the first i've heard of this being a problem.


see this is the problem with selctivley snipping and replying out of 
context(AKA line by line replies) if you're going to include what i was 
replying to, at least include it all so there's some context left.

"practically since the beginning i've gone in and made performance 
enhancements where i've seen the need.  why should i do it any different 
now?"

so, you've done this since the beginning. yet, this is the first you've 
heard of it being a problem???

anyways, i'm not going to get into that on on list.


>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>a couple weeks ago we were talking about who would be
>>comfortable working on the CF code for evolt. i'm not
>>anymore because of the behind the scenes stuff you're
>>doing and not telling anyone about or documenting
>>anywhere but your own head.
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> why is this suddenly a problem now?  in the 2+ years i've been working on
> this it hasn't ever been brought up before.  so, i ask again, why now?


while 2+ years ago it may have just been you, me and walker working on 
the code there are more than you me and walker here now.


> my apologies.  i've been busy.  it's hard to remember what little details
> have been already taken care of and which ones still need attention.

> aren't you getting just alittle accusatory?  what happened to just reporting
> a bug when you find it?


relax and don't get defensive.

[selective snipping]
>>common, we're all big kids here... no one has a problem
>>with hearing better ways to do things or your urge to
>>make things better. people(myself being #1 probably and
>>most vocal) have a problem with you changing code they
>>may have written and not telling them about it.
>>
>>thats the problem.
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> there is no problem except your perception of it (see above for proof).
> 
> are you sure this isn't all based on my lack of action on your request to
> update the changelog?

my perception? jeezus. unless you can give me more than 3 examples of 
letting people know you fixed something(and *how* you fixed it, which is 
also part of the point) for the 68 times you logged into the t.e.o FTP 
account between Oct 13 and Oct 26, its moot what my 'perception' is.

no it doesn't have anything to do with the changelog, which i see you 
accessed a couple hours ago, but sadly still haven't had the time to update.

.djc.





From emeyer at lclark.edu  Mon Nov 12 15:43:14 2001
From: emeyer at lclark.edu (Erika Meyer)
Date: Mon Nov 12 15:43:14 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o styles..
In-Reply-To: <3BF01734.2020504@members.evolt.org>
References: 
 <3BF01734.2020504@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

djc,

>seriously, if you can't be bothered to simply let people who are 
>also trying to work with you on this know what you're doing, don't 
>bother working on it at all.

This sort of language "if you can't be bothered..." etc comes across 
as combative and accusatory... even abusive.   It is not at all 
pleasant to witness.  Even less pleasant to be the brunt of, and as 
you know, I speak from experience.

Thank you,

Erika
-- 




From roselli at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 12 15:51:20 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Mon Nov 12 15:51:20 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BEF2F23.7155.CCD4AB58@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BEFFCBF.9230.CFF7D266@localhost>

> From: ".jeff" 
> >
> > right now we've got:
> > a:link
> > a:visited
> > a:hover
> >
> > so, change the :hover to :active, but don't add it...
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> huh?  i think that's even worse.  out of the four pseudo classes,
> :active is by far the least used.  however, in the interest of user
> controlled stylesheets in the future, don't you think it has a place?

my bad...

i was looking at the CSS1 spec (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-
CSS1#anchor-pseudo-classes) when i wrote that, which has only 3 
pseudo-classes, with hover not being one of them... as such, i 
figured we'd cut the replace the incorrect one, that's all... but 
looking at the CSS2 spec (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-
CSS2/selector.html#dynamic-pseudo-classes), yeah, go for it... i'm 
not too picky since it has such a brief appearance to make...

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > > *but* there is nothing styling the  tag, which is
> > > what i'm saying is the problem.  we just need to
> > > throw a class of pagetitle2 on the  tag in that
> > > cell and put the corresponding css in the stylesheet.
> >
> > *why*?  i don't see why we need to do that, it hasn't
> > been necessary for a year now, no one seems to have
> > problems with it as-is...
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> agreed.  and so long as we're the only ones providing the stylesheets
> for the site it will likely not be an issue.  however, if we allow
> users to create their own *then* it will become a problem.

this is true, but it goes back to the relationship between elements 
that i tried to create, so that only a few colors would be needed, 
which would then color a number of elements a piece... the 
vestigial comments are still in isaac.css...

since, however, i think the approach now is to let the user 
customize every element regardless of other elements, then yes, 
there is the potential a user could make something disappear... but 
if we're going to give the user that control, then he/she should be 
capable of not fixing those things... i don't think we need to idiot-
proof it for our audience...

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > i guess i need to know why the  needs a class...  so
> > far, i haven't heard anything, unless i've missed it in
> > the early part of the thread...
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> yes, i think you must have missed it because i had a very succinct
> argument for it complete with an example.

er... yep, i missed it...

> go to http://test.evolt.org/
> login
> go to http://test.evolt.org/member/index.html?action=signup2 and
> select evoltoldschool.css as your stylesheet click save styles go to

cool, you've got AFistApart in there... i still like stealth better -- 
namely because no one else who saw it could read anything...

> http://test.evolt.org/article/view/17/16286/ notice the category
> (below the date) is invisible?

yep...

> now, while still at this page, imagine if the cell to the right which
> contains the article title and author link was this same blue?  the
> author link would be invisible as well.  classing (and styling) these
> links separately from the rest of the links in the main content area
> allow us to resolve this problem now and in the future.
> 
> make sense?

does now, yeah... just was lacking context...

and yes, i see your point...

i think a better solution, however, is ensuring the predefined CSS 
files don't make that mistake...

the fallback should be classing...

IOW, my preferences/arguments still stand... (like allowing our 
users to mess it up because we trust they might actually go and 
fix it)...

er... am i making sense now (so sleepy)?





From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Mon Nov 12 15:51:26 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Mon Nov 12 15:51:26 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o styles..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 12, Erika Meyer had something to say about Re: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o...

>djc,
>
>>seriously, if you can't be bothered to simply let people who are 
>>also trying to work with you on this know what you're doing, don't 
>>bother working on it at all.
>
>This sort of language "if you can't be bothered..." etc comes across 
>as combative and accusatory... even abusive.   It is not at all 
>pleasant to witness.  Even less pleasant to be the brunt of, and as 
>you know, I speak from experience.

Yeah, I agree. Unfortunately, .jeff's been on the other side of it as
well, so it's probably just how they prefer to speak to each other.

thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 12 16:06:56 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Mon Nov 12 16:06:56 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o styles..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

 
> Yeah, I agree. Unfortunately, .jeff's been on the other side of it as
> well, so it's probably just how they prefer to speak to each other.

I'm beginning to think so too.


i




From djc at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 12 16:07:01 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Mon Nov 12 16:07:01 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o styles..
References:  <3BF01734.2020504@members.evolt.org> 
Message-ID: <3BF04744.9020308@members.evolt.org>

erika -

i'm sorry it comes across that way to you, but theres nothing i can do 
to help how you're interpretting a conversation between me and jeff(god 
forbid if you heard how we talked to eachother on the phone. oh, 
hopefully i've not offended anyone practicing Atheism, Islam, Buddhism, 
Hinduism, or Taoism with the use of the term 'god')

jeff and i tend to disagree with eachother all the time, and it can seem 
brutal at times to people who may be watching.

theres always that thar' delete key!! weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Erika Meyer wrote:

 
> This sort of language "if you can't be bothered..." etc comes across as 
> combative and accusatory... even abusive.   It is not at all pleasant to 
> witness.  Even less pleasant to be the brunt of, and as you know, I 
> speak from experience.






From jeff at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 12 16:55:55 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Mon Nov 12 16:55:55 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <3BEFFCBF.9230.CFF7D266@localhost>
Message-ID: 

aardvark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> > agreed.  and so long as we're the only ones providing
> > the stylesheets for the site it will likely not be an
> > issue.  however, if we allow users to create their own
> > *then* it will become a problem.
>
> this is true, but it goes back to the relationship
> between elements that i tried to create, so that only a
> few colors would be needed, which would then color a
> number of elements a piece... the vestigial comments are
> still in isaac.css...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

agreed.  most of that is still in place.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> since, however, i think the approach now is to let the
> user customize every element regardless of other
> elements, then yes, there is the potential a user could
> make something disappear... but if we're going to give
> the user that control, then he/she should be capable of
> not fixing those things... i don't think we need to
> idiot-proof it for our audience...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i disagree.  here's why.  we're giving the user the ability to style the
background color of three different cells.  for one of those cells the user
may decide they'd like to set the background color to be the same as the
foreground color for the links in the main content area -- as is the case
with evoltoldschool.css to recreate v1.0 look and feel.  however, without
giving them the ability to color the links in the upper two cells
independently of the links in the content area, but instead forcing it to be
the same color as the links in the main content area, we've unnecessarily
made it impossible to do without hiding key elements/functionality of the
site.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i still like stealth better -- namely because no one
> else who saw it could read anything...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

select all and you can read it just fine.  ;p  only a geek would think of
that though.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> and yes, i see your point...
>
> i think a better solution, however, is ensuring the
> predefined CSS files don't make that mistake...
>
> the fallback should be classing...
>
> IOW, my preferences/arguments still stand... (like
> allowing our users to mess it up because we trust
> they might actually go and fix it)...
>
> er... am i making sense now (so sleepy)?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yes, but i think you're answer dodges the current situation.  in other
words, how are we supposed to make evoltoldschool.css work with the existing
site while still maintaining the old v1.0 look and feel?

i've offered my solution to the problem.  i'd like to hear yours.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From jeff at members.evolt.org  Tue Nov 13 09:27:41 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Tue Nov 13 09:27:41 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o styles..
In-Reply-To: <3BF04151.3000806@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> > funny, this is the first i've heard of this being a
> > problem.
>
> see this is the problem with selctivley snipping and
> replying out of context(AKA line by line replies) if
> you're going to include what i was replying to, at
> least include it all so there's some context left.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

sorry.  i tried to leave as much as possible to maintain context while still
snipping enough so it didn't look like a bunch of one-liner replies to a
huge block of text (thereby confusing the specific point i was referring to
which might be buried in the middle of said block of text).

context isn't really that important in my replies as you and i know what you
said.  i think it's more important to be able to pinpoint exactly what
point(s) i'm responding to.  i don't think i should have to say this, but i
*don't* selectively snip to confuse people or purposely alter the context.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> "practically since the beginning i've gone in and made
> performance enhancements where i've seen the need.  why
> should i do it any different now?"
>
> so, you've done this since the beginning. yet, this is
> the first you've heard of it being a problem???
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

that i can recall, yes.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > why is this suddenly a problem now?  in the 2+ years
> > i've been working on this it hasn't ever been brought
> > up before.  so, i ask again, why now?
>
> while 2+ years ago it may have just been you, me and
> walker working on the code there are more than you me
> and walker here now.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i didn't say 2+ years ago.  i said *in* the past 2+ years.  in other words,
this is something that started 2+ years ago and has continued up til the
other day when suddenly a complaint was registered.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> relax and don't get defensive.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

back at ya buddy.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> my perception? jeezus. unless you can give me more than
> 3 examples of letting people know you fixed something
> (and *how* you fixed it, which is also part of the
> point) for the 68 times you logged into the t.e.o FTP
> account between Oct 13 and Oct 26, its moot what my
> 'perception' is.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

no, it's not moot.  i don't always change things when i log in.  sometimes i
log in to see how something was done.  additionally, there's *nothing* that
says that each of those 68 logins reflects a different change.  many of
those logins could be tied to a session of coding where i reached the ftp
session timeout before i was finished making changes and saving them.  post
the 68 logins and i'll do my best to account for every one of them.

fwiw, if you'd bothered to read the 3 examples i posted, you'd have seen
that i did say *how* i'd fixed the problems i encountered.  additionally,
there are comments in the code in places where i wanted to make sure there
was information left behind about changes and the reason behind them.

speaking of ftp logs -- if they're going to be held over people's heads,
then i think they ought to be accessible to any member of this list.  that's
not too much to ask is it?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> no it doesn't have anything to do with the changelog,
> which i see you accessed a couple hours ago, but sadly
> still haven't had the time to update.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah, sorry.  was curious what exactly was in the file and then had to help
with the baby.  maybe you've been too far out of the loop lately to hear
that announcement.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 09:27:46 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Nov 13 09:27:46 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BEFFCBF.9230.CFF7D266@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BF0569E.9371.D156E2C1@localhost>

> From: ".jeff" 
[...]
> i disagree.  here's why.  we're giving the user the ability to style
> the background color of three different cells.  for one of those cells
> the user may decide they'd like to set the background color to be the
> same as the foreground color for the links in the main content area --
> as is the case with evoltoldschool.css to recreate v1.0 look and feel.
>  however, without giving them the ability to color the links in the
> upper two cells independently of the links in the content area, but
> instead forcing it to be the same color as the links in the main
> content area, we've unnecessarily made it impossible to do without
> hiding key elements/functionality of the site.

ok, i see your point now... but then wouldn't that mean that we 
have to *individually* class *every*  that sits outside of the main 
content cell?

the reason i ask is (hopefully) clear... i'm resisting classing every 
element just to apply a style... it feels like spaghetti, and it feels 
like we're now embedding our style in our markup -- not hard 
styles, but definitely calls to specific styles (which is close 
enough, IMO)... style elements and containers, class exceptions, 
use inline for extreme exceptions... instead we're talking about 
treating every  as an exception, which really makes it the 
norm...

> > i still like stealth better -- namely because no one
> > else who saw it could read anything...
> 
> select all and you can read it just fine.  ;p  only a geek would think
> of that though.

how do you think i read the copy on those all white and super-light-
gray sites?

> > i think a better solution, however, is ensuring the
> > predefined CSS files don't make that mistake...
> >
> > the fallback should be classing...
> >
> > IOW, my preferences/arguments still stand... (like
> > allowing our users to mess it up because we trust
> > they might actually go and fix it)...
> >
> > er... am i making sense now (so sleepy)?
> 
> yes, but i think you're answer dodges the current situation.  in other
> words, how are we supposed to make evoltoldschool.css work with the
> existing site while still maintaining the old v1.0 look and feel?

we don't... it doesn't have to be a 1:1 re-creation...

> i've offered my solution to the problem.  i'd like to hear yours.

thing is, i don't see a problem...

i *do* see solutions being proposed, but if i don't see a problem, i'll 
resist solving it...

i just don't think a 1:1 re-creation of one design or complete 
customization is good enough reason to start bloating code with 
embedded pseudo-style...

this all goes back to my preference to see a more restrictive 
scheme of allowing customization if we feel our users are too dim 
to notice they're not seeing some links anymore after they make 
their own...





From djc at members.evolt.org  Tue Nov 13 12:39:53 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Tue Nov 13 12:39:53 2001
Subject: [thesite] Re: FAQ Articles
In-Reply-To: <00c401c16c4f$78cb7360$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

wow, i didnt realize that..

seeing as the definition of an 'admin' has changed since this feature was
put in place, i think we need to open it up.

jeff, how hard would it be?

.djc.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Michele Foster wrote:
> 
> It is my understanding that only Admin members can author FAQ articles.
> Hence, when I resigned my position as an "Admin" member, I changed the
> author of the three FAQ's I had written/coordinated to another Admin member.
> 
> Was my understanding mistaken?
> 
> There is, however, one "code-related" restriction in effect.  That being,
> all FAQ articles must have a "key-phrase", which is only available to Admin
> members.  I'm not sure if there are other restrictions in place limiting the
> FAQ category to only those members with Priv >= 3.
> 
> So, it comes down to two options:
> 
> (1) Let other members (non-admins) author FAQ articles, and:
>         (a)  another admin inserts the key-phrase
>         (b)  delete the requirement that an FAQ must have a key-phrase
> (2)  Let only Admins author FAQ articles.





From djc at members.evolt.org  Tue Nov 13 12:40:00 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Tue Nov 13 12:40:00 2001
Subject: [thesite] RE: FAQ Articles .. was ... Re: [Theforum] survey draft 3
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

alrighty then, disregard my last post.. thanks jeffy

.djc.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, .jeff wrote:
> yes, you're understanding was mistaken.  anybody user can author a faq.

> that doesn't keep the user from submitting a faq though since the keyphrase
> can be assigned to the article later.





From jeff at alphashop.net  Tue Nov 13 12:40:02 2001
From: jeff at alphashop.net (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue Nov 13 12:40:02 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] other articles by this author
Message-ID: 

hey all,

just a quick note to say that i noticed a problem with the article display
in the "other articles by this author" section when the author hasn't
actually authored any approved articles yet (problem only visible to priv
>=3).  i fixed it by adding a check of the getauthorarticles.recordcount and
outputting the text "This user has yet to write any articles." when
appropriate.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From jeff at members.evolt.org  Tue Nov 13 13:05:12 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Tue Nov 13 13:05:12 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <3BF0569E.9371.D156E2C1@localhost>
Message-ID: 

aardvark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> ok, i see your point now... but then wouldn't that mean
> that we have to *individually* class *every*  that
> sits outside of the main content cell?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

well, with the exception of the  tags that sit within pagetitle1 and
pagetitle2, pretty much every  *is* already classed.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> instead we're talking about treating every  as an
> exception, which really makes it the norm...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

actually, we're treating every block of  tags as a group of elements to
be classed.  really all we're concerned with is if the background of the
element where the  sits can have its color set *and* that containing
element is not the content cell, then we need to consider permitting that
 tag color be set separately.

right now we've already got the links in the sidebar taken care of.  we've
got the links above the tab taken care of.  the links in the main content
area are taken care of.  the only ones remaining are the links in cells
using pagetitle1 and pagetitle2 classes.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > yes, but i think you're answer dodges the current
> > situation.  in other words, how are we supposed to
> > make evoltoldschool.css work with the existing site
> > while still maintaining the old v1.0 look and feel?
>
> we don't... it doesn't have to be a 1:1 re-creation...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

you say we don't.  i feel exactly the opposite.  to me, the blue bar across
the top is a key piece of the look and feel.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > i've offered my solution to the problem.  i'd like to
> > hear yours.
>
> thing is, i don't see a problem...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

what do you call those links disappearing when i view the site with
evoltoldschool.css?  that's a problem.  whether the solution involves the
suggestions i made or not, we need to fix it somehow.  would you prefer to
alter the stylesheet instead?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i just don't think a 1:1 re-creation of one design or
> complete customization is good enough reason to start
> bloating code with embedded pseudo-style...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

easy with the exaggerative phrases.  98% of the cases where this could be a
problem are already taken care of.  addressing 2 more will *not* bloat the
code.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> this all goes back to my preference to see a more
> restrictive scheme of allowing customization if we feel
> our users are too dim to notice they're not seeing some
> links anymore after they make their own...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i fail to see how you'd restrict the user in setting the color for
pagetitle1 and pagetitle2 cells such that links won't disappear in there
because of common color usage.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From r937 at interlog.com  Tue Nov 13 14:19:40 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Tue Nov 13 14:19:40 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
Message-ID: <01c16c74$da6a72e0$e34f149a@rudy>

>... i'm resisting classing every element just to apply a style...
> it feels like spaghetti, and it feels like we're now embedding
> our style in our markup

+1

this might make a good article

adding a class to every html element is fuggly -- i cannot pedantically
claim that this intellectually lazy practice does not separate style from
content, because it does, according to the letter of the law, but it's
still fuggly, and breaks the spirit...

i'd rather see a style sheet with styles declared for the html elements
themselves than for every tom dick and harry class that the author feels
needs a different treatment


rudy





From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 14:19:46 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Nov 13 14:19:46 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BF0569E.9371.D156E2C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <200111131927.fADJRmjE011375@leo.evolt.org>

> From: ".jeff" 
> 
> well, with the exception of the  tags that sit within pagetitle1
> and pagetitle2, pretty much every  *is* already classed.

hmmm, just looked, and you're right... everything not in the content 
area is classed... i know why we (i) did it, but it seems so 
inelegant... anyway...

> actually, we're treating every block of  tags as a group of
> elements to be classed.  really all we're concerned with is if the
> background of the element where the  sits can have its color set
> *and* that containing element is not the content cell, then we need to
> consider permitting that  tag color be set separately.

yeah, i've got that, and i see the value of it...

> right now we've already got the links in the sidebar taken care of. 
> we've got the links above the tab taken care of.  the links in the
> main content area are taken care of.  the only ones remaining are the
> links in cells using pagetitle1 and pagetitle2 classes.

which i guess means they were the last hold-outs...

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > > yes, but i think you're answer dodges the current
> > > situation.  in other words, how are we supposed to
> > > make evoltoldschool.css work with the existing site
> > > while still maintaining the old v1.0 look and feel?
> >
> > we don't... it doesn't have to be a 1:1 re-creation...
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> you say we don't.  i feel exactly the opposite.  to me, the blue bar
> across the top is a key piece of the look and feel.

except now we've got a black bar which is moreso a key piece of 
look and feel... yes, the stripe certainly has value, and i see why 
you want to do it...

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > > i've offered my solution to the problem.  i'd like to
> > > hear yours.
> >
> > thing is, i don't see a problem...
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> what do you call those links disappearing when i view the site with
> evoltoldschool.css?  that's a problem.  whether the solution involves
> the suggestions i made or not, we need to fix it somehow.  would you
> prefer to alter the stylesheet instead?

i would prefer to alter the stylesheet... i would prefer that style 
creators not make those errors, and i would prefer that people who 
create custom styles figure out not to do that...

however, i don't have the time right now, and with all of your points, 
i really don't care so much now...

reasons i am resisting, though:

- too many things to change/adjust when creating styles... very 
intimidating to do and track...

- adding more classes, regardless of what else is there...

- updating all CSS files (seee below)...

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > i just don't think a 1:1 re-creation of one design or
> > complete customization is good enough reason to start
> > bloating code with embedded pseudo-style...
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> easy with the exaggerative phrases.  98% of the cases where this could
> be a problem are already taken care of.  addressing 2 more will *not*
> bloat the code.

heh, we have different definitions... adding two, IMO, is bloat... and 
it also sets a precedent (which if you do this i'd like to avoid 
setting) that whenever something doesn't look right, instead of 
adjusting the CSS, we add more HTML...

this also means with every addition of classes, we have to (or at 
least damn well should) go back and update *every* CSS file out 
there that links to the site...

and *that* is a task i find way too daunting to be interested in...

i'm hoping you at least see my concern there....

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > this all goes back to my preference to see a more
> > restrictive scheme of allowing customization if we feel
> > our users are too dim to notice they're not seeing some
> > links anymore after they make their own...
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> i fail to see how you'd restrict the user in setting the color for
> pagetitle1 and pagetitle2 cells such that links won't disappear in
> there because of common color usage.

no, take it waaaay back... i had the idea of *not* allowing every 
element to be adjusted, that there were relationships between 
them... so, for instance, the color you chose for the right sidebar 
would be used for pagetitle1's bg and the text of pagetitle2 (or 
whatever, this is from memory)...

this way could avoid having that happen, and if it did, the user 
would see it immediately, instead of after adjusting 40+ unique 
styles (is it more?)...

but again, that idea was summarily gutted when the style changer 
was built, so i let it go...

independently of that, since i think we can't guarantee CSS authors 
or users won't make those errors, go for it, class away...

just don't say i didn't try to take my ball and go home...

er...





From jeff at alphashop.net  Tue Nov 13 15:58:56 2001
From: jeff at alphashop.net (Jeff Howden)
Date: Tue Nov 13 15:58:56 2001
Subject: [thesite] oracle modification
Message-ID: 

dan (or anybody else here who's able to take care of this),

could you take a look at the following url and see about implementing it on
t.e.o. and w.e.o.?

http://www.orafaq.com/msgboard/tools/messages/2146.htm

i need this done as i'll need the ability to generate random numbers from
within oracle.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From roselli at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 16:19:23 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Tue Nov 13 16:19:23 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <01c16c74$da6a72e0$e34f149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <200111132209.fADM9ijE018837@leo.evolt.org>

>From: "rudy" 
>
> >... i'm resisting classing every element just to apply a style...
> > it feels like spaghetti, and it feels like we're now embedding
> > our style in our markup
> 
> +1
> 
> this might make a good article

keep talking... i'm running low on article ideas right now...

sort of an exploration of how classing *everything* isn't true 
separation?  or something else?

> adding a class to every html element is fuggly -- i cannot
> pedantically claim that this intellectually lazy practice does not
> separate style from content, because it does, according to the letter
> of the law, but it's still fuggly, and breaks the spirit...
> 
> i'd rather see a style sheet with styles declared for the html
> elements themselves than for every tom dick and harry class that the
> author feels needs a different treatment

i completely agree...

but we didn't build the site that way...

*however*, some of the classing is pretty specific, actually implying 
some relationship between elements aside from just classing 
them... for instance, all the links in the sidebar are classed as 
'sidebar'... whether or not that's good or bad is up to you...

anyway, that's completely bizarre rambling that doesn't help this 
thread, so feel free to hit delete...





From djc at members.evolt.org  Tue Nov 13 16:25:52 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Tue Nov 13 16:25:52 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
References: <200111132209.fADM9ijE018837@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3BF4410F.8050000@members.evolt.org>

so ahh.. what does michele need to do to make the stylesheets work?

if length(discussion) > Days(7);
	ask(original question);

:)

.djc.

aardvark wrote:


> anyway, that's completely bizarre rambling that doesn't help this 
> thread, so feel free to hit delete...






From isaac at triplezero.com.au  Wed Nov 14 09:13:52 2001
From: isaac at triplezero.com.au (Isaac Forman)
Date: Wed Nov 14 09:13:52 2001
Subject: [thesite] feature request: article title in comment alert
Message-ID: 


Can we get the article title in there as well?

Thanks,

isaac



>       
> Hello,
>     
> xxxxxxx has commented on a discussion thread you posted
> to evolt.org.  Would you like to read what was written?
>     
> http://www.evolt.org/article/view/xx/xxxx/index.html#comments
>     
> Thanks,
>     
> evolt.org staff
> _______________________________________
> (if you would like to turn off this automatic notification, you may
> do so on the site- just log in and click on 'Edit Account'.)
>     	




From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 09:13:59 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov 14 09:13:59 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <3BF4410F.8050000@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3BF1CF46.20049.D7154489@localhost>

> From: "Daniel J. Cody" 
>
> so ahh.. what does michele need to do to make the stylesheets work?
> 
> if length(discussion) > Days(7);
>  ask(original question);

did we hit 7?  thought we just hit 2...

wow, i really did jump into this thread late...

michele should do as .jeff suggested...

class the pagetitle1/2  tags, add that to the CSS, and run with 
it....

but who's gonna add 'em to all the other CSS files?





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Wed Nov 14 09:14:02 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Wed Nov 14 09:14:02 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <200111131927.fADJRmjE011375@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

aardvark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> [...] and it also sets a precedent (which if you do
> this i'd like to avoid setting) that whenever something
> doesn't look right, instead of adjusting the CSS, we
> add more HTML...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i'd like to avoid setting that precedent as well.  this is a case where i
saw the potential for problems in the future with a fairly simple solution
available.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> this also means with every addition of classes, we have
> to (or at least damn well should) go back and update
> *every* CSS file out there that links to the site...
>
> [...]
>
> i'm hoping you at least see my concern there....
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah, that's the shitty part about it.

better now than later when there are *way* more stylesheets to deal with.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> no, take it waaaay back... i had the idea of *not*
> allowing every element to be adjusted, that there were
> relationships between them... so, for instance, the
> color you chose for the right sidebar would be used for
> pagetitle1's bg and the text of pagetitle2 (or whatever,
> this is from memory)...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

that's not a fair example though because the sidebar and pagetitle1 don't
share the same background color right now.

anyway, seems we're in agreement.  i'll do some research to see what all
needs to be adjusted.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From jeff at members.evolt.org  Wed Nov 14 09:14:03 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Wed Nov 14 09:14:03 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <01c16c74$da6a72e0$e34f149a@rudy>
Message-ID: 

rudy,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: rudy
>
> i'd rather see a style sheet with styles declared for
> the html elements themselves than for every tom dick
> and harry class that the author feels needs a different
> treatment
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

unfortunately you need to class some elements differently for accessibility
and non-css degradability purposes and still maintain some form of design.
sure, if everything is text that'd be easy enough.

just my 2?,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Wed Nov 14 09:33:34 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Wed Nov 14 09:33:34 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
References: <3BF1CF46.20049.D7154489@localhost>
Message-ID: <001d01c16d22$35d2af00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Adrian,

----- Original Message -----
From: "aardvark" 


| > From: "Daniel J. Cody" 
| >
| > so ahh.. what does michele need to do to make the stylesheets work?
| >
| > if length(discussion) > Days(7);
| >  ask(original question);
|
| did we hit 7?  thought we just hit 2...
|
| wow, i really did jump into this thread late...
|
| michele should do as .jeff suggested...
|
| class the pagetitle1/2  tags, add that to the CSS, and run with
| it....


 finally  .... ;)

One last question .. are we adding classes for the Active state for all
links?  Currently we only have Link, Hover, Visited.   If undefined, I'm
guessing its defaulting to one of the others, which is why its never been an
issue.  I'd prefer to get it all done right the first time tho.

|
| but who's gonna add 'em to all the other CSS files?

That would be me ... just been waiting for you guys to decide what needs to
be done. I'll fix all the files currently in use, as well as the new ones
proposed for the stylesheet selector.  (Except f.e.o., I'll send the info to
Matt/Garrett to update that one, since its very different than the others.)


Jeff, I have the CSS files here locally, let me know if you've updated them
please.  I'll post the changes required to the template pages to this list.


Thanks,

Michele







From djc at members.evolt.org  Wed Nov 14 10:14:43 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Wed Nov 14 10:14:43 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
References: <3BF1CF46.20049.D7154489@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BF26016.1060301@members.evolt.org>

she's got all the CSS files for each site and the new ones..

.djc.

aardvark wrote:


> but who's gonna add 'em to all the other CSS files?






From djc at members.evolt.org  Wed Nov 14 10:14:48 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Wed Nov 14 10:14:48 2001
Subject: [thesite] oracle modification
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF25FE2.50108@members.evolt.org>

dean will probably be the one to do this since i'm a babe in the woods 
re: stored procs

.djc.

Jeff Howden wrote:

> dan (or anybody else here who's able to take care of this),
> 
> could you take a look at the following url and see about implementing it on
> t.e.o. and w.e.o.?
> 
> http://www.orafaq.com/msgboard/tools/messages/2146.htm
> 
> i need this done as i'll need the ability to generate random numbers from
> within oracle.






From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 14:19:17 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov 14 14:19:17 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200111131927.fADJRmjE011375@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111141641.fAEGfAjE020503@leo.evolt.org>

> From: ".jeff" 
[...]
> > [...] and it also sets a precedent (which if you do
> > this i'd like to avoid setting) that whenever something
> > doesn't look right, instead of adjusting the CSS, we
> > add more HTML...
> 
> i'd like to avoid setting that precedent as well.  this is a case
> where i saw the potential for problems in the future with a fairly
> simple solution available.

as long as you agree on that, i'm good...

> > this also means with every addition of classes, we have
> > to (or at least damn well should) go back and update
> > *every* CSS file out there that links to the site...
[...]
> yeah, that's the shitty part about it.
> 
> better now than later when there are *way* more stylesheets to deal
> with.

agreed...

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > no, take it waaaay back... i had the idea of *not*
> > allowing every element to be adjusted, that there were
> > relationships between them... so, for instance, the
> > color you chose for the right sidebar would be used for
> > pagetitle1's bg and the text of pagetitle2 (or whatever,
> > this is from memory)...
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> that's not a fair example though because the sidebar and pagetitle1
> don't share the same background color right now.

it was just an example, though...

for those who are interested, if you go to view-
source:http://evolt.org/evolt/isaac.css and look at the comments, 
you'll see that when i first built it i had assigned 'variables' to 
everything and suggested what attributes should consist of and 
where they should be re-used... so if you see /* as MainBGColor 
*/, for example, that means use the value you set for MainBGColor 
earlier in the CSS...

it's still a good guide to keep the overall design consistency for 
those making new CSS, even if it is falling out of date now...

> anyway, seems we're in agreement.  i'll do some research to see what
> all needs to be adjusted.

dig...





From dmah at shaw.ca  Wed Nov 14 14:19:24 2001
From: dmah at shaw.ca (Dean Mah)
Date: Wed Nov 14 14:19:24 2001
Subject: [thesite] oracle modification
In-Reply-To: <3BF25FE2.50108@members.evolt.org> from "Daniel J. Cody" at Nov 14, 2001 06:13:22 AM
Message-ID: <200111141649.JAA01717@alice.monkeyland.ca>

I have loaded the stored proc into the test and production Oracle
databases.

Dean


Daniel J. Cody writes:

> dean will probably be the one to do this since i'm a babe in the woods 
> re: stored procs
> 
> .djc.
> 
> Jeff Howden wrote:
> 
> > dan (or anybody else here who's able to take care of this),
> > 
> > could you take a look at the following url and see about implementing it on
> > t.e.o. and w.e.o.?
> > 
> > http://www.orafaq.com/msgboard/tools/messages/2146.htm
> > 
> > i need this done as i'll need the ability to generate random numbers from
> > within oracle.




From roselli at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 14 14:19:25 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Wed Nov 14 14:19:25 2001
Subject: [thesite] Additions to default CSS file
In-Reply-To: <001d01c16d22$35d2af00$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <200111141641.fAEGfAjE020502@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "Michele Foster" 
[...] 
> One last question .. are we adding classes for the Active state for
> all links?  Currently we only have Link, Hover, Visited.   If
> undefined, I'm guessing its defaulting to one of the others, which is
> why its never been an issue.  I'd prefer to get it all done right the
> first time tho.

i think .jeff suggested that, and if we're gonna update it, it's a good 
idea to do it now...





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Wed Nov 14 16:55:20 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Wed Nov 14 16:55:20 2001
Subject: [thesite] oracle modification
In-Reply-To: <200111141649.JAA01717@alice.monkeyland.ca>
Message-ID: 

dean,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Dean Mah
> 
> I have loaded the stored proc into the test and
> production Oracle databases.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

thanks dean.

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Wed Nov 14 23:16:25 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Wed Nov 14 23:16:25 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
Message-ID: <005101c16d94$610fd720$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Hey folks..

Was browsing a site that someone posted to thelist .... Comes from IBM
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/usability/library/us-tricks/?article=u
ser

Here's how they list their ratings.

What do you think of this article?
Killer! (5) Good stuff (4) So-so; not bad (3) Needs work (2) Lame! (1)

I like it .. more "fun/interesting/enticing" than ours ...

     1 (bad)    2 (poor)     3 (okay)      4 (good)     5(great!!)

Comments ?

Michele






From jungwirr at chumpsquad.com  Thu Nov 15 11:27:11 2001
From: jungwirr at chumpsquad.com (Russell J. Jungwirth)
Date: Thu Nov 15 11:27:11 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
In-Reply-To: <005101c16d94$610fd720$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

I like the more constructive aspect to their rating system.  It seems to
be more in line with the interactive nature of an on-line community.

I'd change the top and bottom ratings - 'Killer' and 'Lame' are just a
little too cliche.

A Must Read (5) Worth Looking At (4) Not Bad (3) Needs Work (2) Don't
Bother (1)

russ

> Killer! (5) Good stuff (4) So-so; not bad (3) Needs work (2) Lame! (1)
>
>      1 (bad)    2 (poor)     3 (okay)      4 (good)     5(great!!)

On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Michele Foster wrote:

> Hey folks..
>
> Was browsing a site that someone posted to thelist .... Comes from IBM
> http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/usability/library/us-tricks/?article=u
> ser
>
> Here's how they list their ratings.
>
> What do you think of this article?
> Killer! (5) Good stuff (4) So-so; not bad (3) Needs work (2) Lame! (1)
>
> I like it .. more "fun/interesting/enticing" than ours ...
>
>      1 (bad)    2 (poor)     3 (okay)      4 (good)     5(great!!)
>
> Comments ?
>
> Michele
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite
>





From djc at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 11:47:07 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Thu Nov 15 11:47:07 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF31E45.2040505@members.evolt.org>

whatever!

lets use Rad! (5) .... Totally bogus! (1)

cliche??! pfft! ;)

.djc.

Russell J. Jungwirth wrote:


> A Must Read (5) Worth Looking At (4) Not Bad (3) Needs Work (2) Don't
> Bother (1)
>






From evolt at spinhead.com  Thu Nov 15 11:47:13 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Thu Nov 15 11:47:13 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
References: 
Message-ID: <000f01c16dfc$137e6040$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

Maybe I'm thin-skinned, but I really prefer to keep the lower end of the
scale even less emotionally charged than "Don't Bother." I like humor in the
positive ones, and simple/direct (Needs Work/No Thanks) on the lower end.

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "Russell J. Jungwirth" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?


> I like the more constructive aspect to their rating system.  It seems to
> be more in line with the interactive nature of an on-line community.
>
> I'd change the top and bottom ratings - 'Killer' and 'Lame' are just a
> little too cliche.
>
> A Must Read (5) Worth Looking At (4) Not Bad (3) Needs Work (2) Don't
> Bother (1)
>
> russ
>
> > Killer! (5) Good stuff (4) So-so; not bad (3) Needs work (2) Lame! (1)
> >
> >      1 (bad)    2 (poor)     3 (okay)      4 (good)     5(great!!)
>
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Michele Foster wrote:
>
> > Hey folks..
> >
> > Was browsing a site that someone posted to thelist .... Comes from IBM
> >
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/usability/library/us-tricks/?article=u
> > ser
> >
> > Here's how they list their ratings.
> >
> > What do you think of this article?
> > Killer! (5) Good stuff (4) So-so; not bad (3) Needs work (2) Lame! (1)
> >
> > I like it .. more "fun/interesting/enticing" than ours ...
> >
> >      1 (bad)    2 (poor)     3 (okay)      4 (good)     5(great!!)
> >
> > Comments ?
> >
> > Michele
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to:
> > http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite
>





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 16:25:57 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 15 16:25:57 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


> I'd change the top and bottom ratings - 'Killer' and 'Lame' are just a
> little too cliche.

+1

> A Must Read (5) Worth Looking At (4) Not Bad (3) Needs Work (2) Don't
> Bother (1)


I'd change (3) to "Useful", (2) to "OK", and (1) to "Needs Work".

i.e., it's unlikely that we'll ever approve something which is completely
pathetic, but there's stuff that "Needs Work".


isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au





From lists at mantruc.com  Thu Nov 15 16:26:05 2001
From: lists at mantruc.com (javier velasco (mantruc))
Date: Thu Nov 15 16:26:05 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF408E0.AF6CA60E@mantruc.com>

sorry to pipe in after such a long silence on thesite :(

i'd just like to point out that some of the labels proposed here are too much of a
US-centric slang, and could limit the understanding of a wider audience, keep that
in mind...

examples:

lame
rad
bogus
so-so [the IBM site has a 'not bad' next to it]

HTH

--
Javier Velasco M.      -               nurun Chile
Information Architect  -       http://www.nurun.cl
----------------------- --------------------------
--       Personal: http://mantruc.com           --
--        Member of http://evolt.org            --






From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Thu Nov 15 16:26:09 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Thu Nov 15 16:26:09 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, Russell J. Jungwirth had something to say about Re: [thesite]...

>I like the more constructive aspect to their rating system.  It seems to
>be more in line with the interactive nature of an on-line community.
>
>I'd change the top and bottom ratings - 'Killer' and 'Lame' are just a
>little too cliche.

Plus, people who don't speak English well probably aren't going to
understand the meaning of "Killer".

>A Must Read (5) Worth Looking At (4) Not Bad (3) Needs Work (2) Don't
>Bother (1)

That changes things, tho. 3 is supposed to be average, not "needs
work" which implies below average.

We already have too many people giving average articles 4s. I don't want
to encourage that.

Thanks,


--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com






From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Thu Nov 15 16:26:12 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Thu Nov 15 16:26:12 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
Message-ID: <001a01c16e09$931e92e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Hey guys (and gals) ..

Who added this feature?  Is it currently being worked on?  None of the links
are working, ATM, regardless of log-in state.  I can C&P the error if
needed.

Results don't look "up to date" either .. someone wanna explain what its
intent is, and how it "should" be working? ;)

The [?] isn't showing up in all styles .. what's being used to "class" that
link?  Something's missing, me thinks.


btw, why don't "New Comments" show up for everyone?  What's the priv on
that?  Not at all sure why there's a priv restriction in effect anyway?


Thanks,

Michele






From sgd at ti3.com  Thu Nov 15 16:26:21 2001
From: sgd at ti3.com (Scott Dexter)
Date: Thu Nov 15 16:26:21 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
Message-ID: 

> lets use Rad! (5) .... Totally bogus! (1)
> 

Bookmarked (5) ... Laughable (1)

(actually, I like Russ' scale)


dex

> Russell J. Jungwirth wrote:
> 
> 
> > A Must Read (5) Worth Looking At (4) Not Bad (3) Needs Work 
> (2) Don't
> > Bother (1)




From djc at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 16:35:03 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Thu Nov 15 16:35:03 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
References: <001a01c16e09$931e92e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <3BF361F3.7030007@members.evolt.org>

i am.. just re-installing it actually now that they're in the DB at a 
somewhat updated interval.. i know the links dont work atm, i need to 
change them to point to seth's archiver thingy .. i'm not sure about the 
[?] thing either.. what should it be using for a class?

.djc.

Michele Foster wrote:

> Hey guys (and gals) ..
> 
> Who added this feature?  Is it currently being worked on?  None of the links
> are working, ATM, regardless of log-in state.  I can C&P the error if
> needed.
> 
> Results don't look "up to date" either .. someone wanna explain what its
> intent is, and how it "should" be working? ;)
> 
> The [?] isn't showing up in all styles .. what's being used to "class" that
> link?  Something's missing, me thinks.





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 16:38:20 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 15 16:38:20 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: <001a01c16e09$931e92e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

> btw, why don't "New Comments" show up for everyone?  What's the priv on
> that?  Not at all sure why there's a priv restriction in effect anyway?

I think it's merely that we overlooked it being useful for everyone. At the
time, we might've taken into account the fact that it would make the sidebar
even busier.

Originally, it was placed there for admins to track new comments to watch
for spam.

I don't see any problem (aside from increasing sidebar content) with making
that available to anyone.

As for recent threads on thelist -- I don't see that anywhere on WEO so it
must be something in progress on TEO only (i.e., I'm not surprised if it
doesn't work)?



isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From r937 at interlog.com  Thu Nov 15 16:42:39 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Thu Nov 15 16:42:39 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
Message-ID: <01c16e27$315f65c0$594e149a@rudy>

> We already have too many people giving average articles 4s.
> I don't want to encourage that.

alrightee, we've had a lot of suggestions, many of which were rightly shot
down as being too american or idiomatic

the original scale was

     1 (bad)    2 (poor)     3 (okay)      4 (good)     5(great!!)

perhaps in view of matt's comment, we could consider

     1 (bad)    2 (poor)    3 (good)    4 (excellent)    5(outstanding)

i still think people are going to rate average articles with a 4 -- it's
only human nature


rudy




From djc at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 16:44:06 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Thu Nov 15 16:44:06 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF36411.6090608@members.evolt.org>

+1

isaac wrote:


> I don't see any problem (aside from increasing sidebar content) with making
> that available to anyone.





From martin at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 16:47:15 2001
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Thu Nov 15 16:47:15 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
Message-ID: 

isaac wrote on 15/11/01 11:41 pm

>> btw, why don't "New Comments" show up for everyone?  What's the priv on
>> that?  Not at all sure why there's a priv restriction in effect anyway?
>
>I think it's merely that we overlooked it being useful for everyone.

I think so - it's staggeringly useful to direct me to the most recent
content that's not a whole new article. Particularly if it's a comment
to a really, really old article (like the one I posted on Wolf's SE
spider article from waaay back in 99 or so)

>I don't see any problem (aside from increasing sidebar content) with making
>that available to anyone.

I can't see a downside, although as the chief benefit is for people with
the priv to make comments (ie registered members), that's where
I'd go first off.

Cheers
Martin


_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
       martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
  tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985                      Edinburgh,
  url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk                 Scotland




From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com  Thu Nov 15 16:56:18 2001
From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com)
Date: Thu Nov 15 16:56:18 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F0@arnold.bedrock.com>

| i still think people are going to rate average articles with 
| a 4 -- it's
| only human nature

In psychology, this method of evaluation, a scale of 1 to 5 is called the
"Lichert Scale". The uneven number of options allows some "safety" in
choice.

There is another kind of scale, the name of which I can't remember (is it
really important?), but it has 6 choices. The object is for people to have
to chose, basically, that they liked it or didn't. You can't sit on the
fence, partner, you gotta choose.

The side effect may be that people will be more willing to chose a 4 or a 5,
whereas the 6 maybe "perfect" or something equivalently unachievable.

Another aspect may be, thinking of Javier's statement, getting a more
international or less cultural tone to it, maybe even a less judgmental
attitude (my fellow _North_ Americans, let me tell you, there are some
_real_ deep cultural sensitivities to the way we do things here!) 

Say, "Strongly Disagree", "Disagree", "Somewhat Disagree", "Somewhat Agree",
"Agree", "Strongly Agree"?

Or, we could localize it, base it on preferences?

Ok. Said too much.





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 17:00:05 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 17:00:05 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

martin,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Martin
>
> I can't see a downside,
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

the downside is there is *lots* of crap in the sidebar.  adding more serves
only to confuse people more.  i wonder how much of the stuff there is used
by our userbase.  i wonder what is not used at all.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> although as the chief benefit is for people with the
> priv to make comments (ie registered members), that's
> where I'd go first off.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i'd like to clarify.  do you mean logged in users (priv 1) or members (priv
2)?

if it's priv >= 1, then +1 from me.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 17:01:37 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 17:01:37 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: <3BF361F3.7030007@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
> 
> i'm not sure about the [?] thing either.. what should it
> be using for a class?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

anything in the sidebar should be using a class of "sidebar" for the links.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 17:04:51 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 17:04:51 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: <3BF361F3.7030007@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> i am.. just re-installing it actually now that they're
> in the DB at a somewhat updated interval..
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

the title attribute value for the [?] link needs to be changed slightly.

  "Evolt is more than a site. This link will take you
   to a page that tells you about our discussion list."

the "Evolt" at the beginning needs to be changed to evolt.org.  i'm not sure
how to do that and start the sentence with a capital letter.  maybe one of
our trusty writer-types can help with that.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From evolt at spinhead.com  Thu Nov 15 17:05:15 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Thu Nov 15 17:05:15 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
References: <01c16e27$315f65c0$594e149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <003601c16e2a$4cf9b6c0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

+1 on the scale

re: what most folks will do, "Never give up, never surrender." We need to
convince readers that honest feedback = improved quality = greater value to
THEM and the whole community.

If the uninitiated don't know how to rate an article, perhaps some unbaised
pointers on critical analysis? The feedback loop is critical to the
improvement process. I've too much of 'smiles to my face and smirks behind
my back' to take superficial feedback at face value.

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "rudy" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?


[ . . . ]
>
> perhaps in view of matt's comment, we could consider
>
>      1 (bad)    2 (poor)    3 (good)    4 (excellent)    5(outstanding)
>
> i still think people are going to rate average articles with a 4 -- it's
> only human nature
>
>
> rudy
>




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 17:09:18 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 17:09:18 2001
Subject: [thesite] comments in sidebar (was: [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i'd like to clarify.  do you mean logged in users
> (priv 1) or members (priv 2)?
>
> if it's priv >= 1, then +1 from me.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

let me clarify.  +1 from me if the [...more] link at the bottom is
restricted to priv >= 3.  the reason for this is that that link takes the
user to a comments browse/search engine of sorts and it's not really ready
for public consumption.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From r937 at interlog.com  Thu Nov 15 17:16:06 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Thu Nov 15 17:16:06 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
Message-ID: <01c16e2b$da15dec0$594e149a@rudy>

>  "Evolt is more than a site. This link will take you
>   to a page that tells you about our discussion list."
>
> the "Evolt" at the beginning needs to be changed to evolt.org.
> i'm not sure how to do that and start the sentence with a capital letter.
> maybe one of our trusty writer-types can help with that.

"More than a site, evolt.org is a community.  This link will
take you to a page that tells you about our discussion list."


you're welcome

rudy




From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 17:19:45 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 15 17:19:45 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> the "Evolt" at the beginning needs to be changed to evolt.org.
> i'm not sure
> how to do that and start the sentence with a capital letter.  maybe one of
> our trusty writer-types can help with that.

I wouldn't obsess over starting the sentence with a capital letter on a
title attribute. Try:

"evolt.org is more than a site; find out about our discussion lists."

Nice and terse.


isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From isaac at triplezero.com.au  Thu Nov 15 18:24:20 2001
From: isaac at triplezero.com.au (Isaac Forman)
Date: Thu Nov 15 18:24:20 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
Message-ID: 

fyi.


i've been making some changes to article/dsp_article.cfm.

you can see them in action here:
http://test.evolt.org/article/comment/22/3631/index.html


 - commented out author name and cubes from original position
 - added right-aligned table with author info. the author block is styled to
mimic the stylebar.

 - table needs to be padded from main content. short of nesting it in
another table with cellpadding=15, does anyone have other preferences?

 - it's missing some of the info (email address, full name, # comments,
average article rating) which will be added sometime soon (checking with
jeff on available variables/queries before i duplicate/add my own).

i imagine that the photo (65x86px i think) will sit in a /authorpics/ folder
numbered according to id (i.e., i'd be 79.jpg). authors would submit theirs
(pre scaled and optimised to meet filesize restrictions?) by email to anyone
with ftp access.

thoughts?


isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 18:36:57 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 18:36:57 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

isaac,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Isaac Forman
>
>  - added right-aligned table with author info. the
>    author block is styled to mimic the stylebar.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

something needs to be done about that all-white block.  it's going to be
*way* too much contrast for some stylesheets.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>  - table needs to be padded from main content. short of
>    nesting it in another table with cellpadding=15,
>    does anyone have other preferences?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

just use css to pad the table.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>  - it's missing some of the info (email address, full
>    name, # comments, average article rating) which will
>    be added sometime soon (checking with jeff on
>    available variables/queries before i duplicate/add
>    my own).
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

looking into that now.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i imagine that the photo (65x86px i think) will sit in a
> /authorpics/ folder numbered according to id (i.e., i'd
> be 79.jpg). authors would submit theirs (pre scaled and
> optimised to meet filesize restrictions?) by email to
> anyone with ftp access.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

actually, more likely the pic will be in a folder named with their userid
(article images are already done this way) and named author.[gif|jpg].
that'd be /images/79/author.jpg for you.  we can provide a means for
uploading the image.  if it's not the size we want, then we can resize it
server-side.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 15 19:04:07 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov 15 19:04:07 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF42021.32263.E0211C25@localhost>

> From:  "isaac" 
> 
> I wouldn't obsess over starting the sentence with a capital letter on
> a title attribute. Try:
> 
> "evolt.org is more than a site; find out about our discussion lists."

ho hum... just strolling by... but thought i'd add...

we *did* agree that capitalizing evolt.org was acceptable if it was 
the start of a sentence...

although that was a while ago...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 15 19:07:28 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov 15 19:07:28 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF420EA.22484.E0242CDD@localhost>

> From: ".jeff" 
> >
> >  - added right-aligned table with author info. the
> >    author block is styled to mimic the stylebar.
> 
> something needs to be done about that all-white block.  it's going to
> be *way* too much contrast for some stylesheets.

yeah, like the classic theme... isaac, did you mean it took sidebar 
styles?  i think that would be the best approach... but it isn't doing 
it...

> >  - table needs to be padded from main content. short of
> >    nesting it in another table with cellpadding=15,
> >    does anyone have other preferences?
> 
> just use css to pad the table.

+1

otherwise, i dig.



From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 19:16:47 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 15 19:16:47 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF420EA.22484.E0242CDD@localhost>
Message-ID: 

> > something needs to be done about that all-white block.  it's going to
> > be *way* too much contrast for some stylesheets.
>
> yeah, like the classic theme... isaac, did you mean it took sidebar
> styles?  i think that would be the best approach... but it isn't doing
> it...

the block with "author" bit in it uses the .side style. the white bit is
just white. what style would you prefer that used?


i




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Thu Nov 15 19:29:44 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Thu Nov 15 19:29:44 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, isaac had something to say about RE: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug] ...

>
>> btw, why don't "New Comments" show up for everyone?  What's the priv on
>> that?  Not at all sure why there's a priv restriction in effect anyway?
>
>I think it's merely that we overlooked it being useful for everyone. At the
>time, we might've taken into account the fact that it would make the sidebar
>even busier.

No, you just gotta be logged in so we have your lastlogin session variable
;-)


Thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 15 19:30:26 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov 15 19:30:26 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BF420EA.22484.E0242CDD@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BF4264B.9777.E0393106@localhost>

> From: "isaac" 
> 
> the block with "author" bit in it uses the .side style. the white bit
> is just white. what style would you prefer that used?

i'd try it with the .side class instead if just plain white...

and treat the copy and links as the sidebar...

or try using the .pageTitle1 class?

i'm just trying to ensure that we:
- don't keep creating new styles (see chat between .jeff and i)...
- re-use existing styles...
- allow users to customize it all (within reason, no new styles)...




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 19:39:58 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 19:39:58 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF4264B.9777.E0393106@localhost>
Message-ID: 

isaac & adrian,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> i'd try it with the .side class instead if just plain
> white...
>
> and treat the copy and links as the sidebar...
>
> or try using the .pageTitle1 class?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

here's an idea.  the block on the left is classed .pagetitle1 and the block
on the right with all the info is classed .side along with all the links in
the block on the right classed .sidebar.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i'm just trying to ensure that we:
> - don't keep creating new styles (see chat between
>   .jeff and i)...
> - re-use existing styles...
> - allow users to customize it all (within reason, no
>   new styles)...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

my preference as well.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From roselli at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 15 19:48:18 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Thu Nov 15 19:48:18 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BF4264B.9777.E0393106@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BF42A76.16064.E04977EA@localhost>

> From: ".jeff" 
> 
> here's an idea.  the block on the left is classed .pagetitle1 and the
> block on the right with all the info is classed .side along with all
> the links in the block on the right classed .sidebar.

hey!  stay out of this... let the professionals handle it...

so, anyway, isaac, like i was saying... try making the left half as 
.pagetitle1 and the right half as .sidebar...

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > i'm just trying to ensure that we:
> > - don't keep creating new styles (see chat between
> >   .jeff and i)...
> > - re-use existing styles...
> > - allow users to customize it all (within reason, no
> >   new styles)...
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> my preference as well.

good man.




From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 19:57:03 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 15 19:57:03 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF42A76.16064.E04977EA@localhost>
Message-ID: 

> hey!  stay out of this... let the professionals handle it...
>
> so, anyway, isaac, like i was saying... try making the left half as
> .pagetitle1 and the right half as .sidebar...

you guys choose.

i'm less interested in the custom stylesheets stuff (we should provide
standard style, larger fonts style, and higher contrast style, etc, but
otherwise, i think we're just messing with our branding).


i




From jungwirr at chumpsquad.com  Thu Nov 15 21:59:02 2001
From: jungwirr at chumpsquad.com (Russell J. Jungwirth)
Date: Thu Nov 15 21:59:02 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: <3BF42021.32263.E0211C25@localhost>
Message-ID: 

I know that too many cooks spoil the soup, but I've gotta add my two
cents.  Does evolt.org have a set of style conventions?  If we do, this
should be part of it.  I did a little looking, and discovered nothing
conclusive in the more tech-savvy of style manuals.  The only thing I
found was some good advice - the rules are still largely fluid regarding
many of these finer style points.  So pick a style, and remain consistent.
I know that's a task in and of itself in an open community, but we can go
our distance and have a visible, well written, and concise set of
on-line writing style conventions.  Any takers? :-)

russ

On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, aardvark wrote:

> > From:  "isaac" 
> >
> > I wouldn't obsess over starting the sentence with a capital letter on
> > a title attribute. Try:
> >
> > "evolt.org is more than a site; find out about our discussion lists."
>
> ho hum... just strolling by... but thought i'd add...
>
> we *did* agree that capitalizing evolt.org was acceptable if it was
> the start of a sentence...
>
> although that was a while ago...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite
>




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Thu Nov 15 22:05:59 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:05:59 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <00cd01c16e54$99f716a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Isaac,

I don't think I'm seeing what it properly .. how come "Author" is so far
away ?  Looks like a word "lost" ?  I'm not sure we need "Author at all.  At
640 x 480, it looks really poor .. the text is way too narrow.

Here's a screen shot .. IE 5.5, using David's CSS.  (at pseudo 640x480 to
show "impact").

http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/teosample.jpg


I'd suggest eliminating "Total Ratings Received" .. I'm not sure it has any
value .. and there are just too many words there, IMHO.

I liked your other sample better.

The cubes are lost and alone at the bottom .. plus why have the cubes and
the words indicating number of articles written?  We don't need both ..
we've already decided on the cubes.  I think we're getting too granular
here.

Email/MemberPage - I'd prefer to link only to the Author name (as it is
now).  The author's email is on the member page, unless they asked that it
be hidden.  No reason to link to it separately.

And .. yes, let's not add any more classes .. as others suggested .. the
ones for "sidebar" are probably best... not pagetitle tho, as that's not
always changed.

My two cents ..

Michele


----- Original Message -----
From: "Isaac Forman" 

| http://test.evolt.org/article/comment/22/3631/index.html





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Thu Nov 15 22:13:12 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:13:12 2001
Subject: [thesite] comments in sidebar (was: [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?)
References: 
Message-ID: <00d601c16e55$9c248880$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Jeff,

Did you already delete the [more] altogether ?  I don't see it, logged in
with admin privs.

Just curious, trying to figure out whatcha talking about.

I'm for deleting it (or setting to Admin privs) .. if it exists ;)

And +1 to allowing comments on the sidebar (in case anyone's keeping track
.. I'm lost)


Thanks,

Mich

----- Original Message -----
From: ".jeff" 


|
| let me clarify.  +1 from me if the [...more] link at the bottom is
| restricted to priv >= 3.  the reason for this is that that link takes the
| user to a comments browse/search engine of sorts and it's not really ready
| for public consumption.
|





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 22:24:54 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:24:54 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <00cd01c16e54$99f716a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

> I don't think I'm seeing what it properly .. how come "Author" is so far
> away ?  Looks like a word "lost" ?  I'm not sure we need "Author
> at all.  At
> 640 x 480, it looks really poor .. the text is way too narrow.

that is courtesy of jeff or adrian's styling. you probably missed the
original which was a fairly accurate representation of this:
http://www.anarchitect.net/isaac/evolt/author2.gif

we may be better off dumping the author column. as you suggest, it's pretty
obvious anyway.

> I'd suggest eliminating "Total Ratings Received" .. I'm not sure
> it has any value .. and there are just too many words there, IMHO.

i think that's been added by jeff.

> The cubes are lost and alone at the bottom .. plus why have the cubes and
> the words indicating number of articles written?  We don't need both ..
> we've already decided on the cubes.  I think we're getting too granular
> here.

because the cubes are not an immediately obvious representation of articles
written, *and* i'd hope that the cubes gain wider use in the future (i.e.,
to represent overall involvement in various things besides just articles).

currently, they're our indicator of committment to evolt.org. take a
longtime contributor writing their first article, and they'll look wimpy.
iconically, i think they're cool. just currently limited.

anyway, for now they could be shifted to next to the username. also, i think
that the username here should be optionally (or by default) changed to full
name. i want to show my full name there but can i edit my username?

btw, when i click "edit account", the form is blank instead of prefilled
with my existing data. is that just a TEO thing? or because i've only filled
it in on WEO and not TEO?

also btw, the visited link status in that box is invisible (i'm using
mccreath's slate theme). do we need to class those links with .side?

> Email/MemberPage - I'd prefer to link only to the Author name (as it is
> now).  The author's email is on the member page, unless they asked that it
> be hidden.  No reason to link to it separately.

i think there is a reason to link to it separately and directly. saves a
click. encourages interaction between members/readers. the existing format
was "author info" with no indication (bar assumption) that the author info
also included an email address.


isaac




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Thu Nov 15 22:32:29 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:32:29 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <00f301c16e58$4ea68d80$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: "isaac" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:27 PM
Subject: RE: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi


|
| > I don't think I'm seeing what it properly .. how come "Author" is so far
| > away ?  Looks like a word "lost" ?  I'm not sure we need "Author
| > at all.  At
| > 640 x 480, it looks really poor .. the text is way too narrow.
|
| that is courtesy of jeff or adrian's styling. you probably missed the
| original which was a fairly accurate representation of this:
| http://www.anarchitect.net/isaac/evolt/author2.gif
|
| we may be better off dumping the author column. as you suggest, it's
pretty
| obvious anyway.
|
| > I'd suggest eliminating "Total Ratings Received" .. I'm not sure
| > it has any value .. and there are just too many words there, IMHO.
|
| i think that's been added by jeff.
|
| > The cubes are lost and alone at the bottom .. plus why have the cubes
and
| > the words indicating number of articles written?  We don't need both ..
| > we've already decided on the cubes.  I think we're getting too granular
| > here.
|
| because the cubes are not an immediately obvious representation of
articles
| written, *and* i'd hope that the cubes gain wider use in the future (i.e.,
| to represent overall involvement in various things besides just articles).
|
| currently, they're our indicator of committment to evolt.org. take a
| longtime contributor writing their first article, and they'll look wimpy.
| iconically, i think they're cool. just currently limited.
|
| anyway, for now they could be shifted to next to the username. also, i
think
| that the username here should be optionally (or by default) changed to
full
| name. i want to show my full name there but can i edit my username?
|
| btw, when i click "edit account", the form is blank instead of prefilled
| with my existing data. is that just a TEO thing? or because i've only
filled
| it in on WEO and not TEO?
|
| also btw, the visited link status in that box is invisible (i'm using
| mccreath's slate theme). do we need to class those links with .side?
|
| > Email/MemberPage - I'd prefer to link only to the Author name (as it is
| > now).  The author's email is on the member page, unless they asked that
it
| > be hidden.  No reason to link to it separately.
|
| i think there is a reason to link to it separately and directly. saves a
| click. encourages interaction between members/readers. the existing format
| was "author info" with no indication (bar assumption) that the author info
| also included an email address.
|
|
| isaac
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to:
| http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite
|




From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 22:37:27 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:37:27 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

playing aruond with it now.

so far, have removed the author block. restyled the links correctly. trying
something else too.

url is still: http://test.evolt.org/article/comment/22/3631/index.html




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 22:42:46 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:42:46 2001
Subject: [thesite] comments in sidebar (was: [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?)
In-Reply-To: <00d601c16e55$9c248880$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> Did you already delete the [more] altogether ?  I don't
> see it, logged in with admin privs.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

from looking at the code it seems it only shows up if there are more than 5
new comments since your last login.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> I'm for deleting it (or setting to Admin privs) .. if
> it exists ;)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i've actually been working on the comments search engine and think maybe
it's good to go for logged in users (priv >= 1).

i'd like some feedback:

http://test.evolt.org/comment/

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> And +1 to allowing comments on the sidebar (in case
> anyone's keeping track .. I'm lost)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

already there.  it has been for priv >= 1 since may when matt changed it.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Thu Nov 15 22:44:40 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:44:40 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <00fa01c16e5a$01df2dc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

arrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhh

Sorry, I'm tired .. I really did not mean to hit send. ;)

Comments below.

----- Original Message -----
From: "isaac" 


| that is courtesy of jeff or adrian's styling. you probably missed the
| original which was a fairly accurate representation of this:
| http://www.anarchitect.net/isaac/evolt/author2.gif
|
| we may be better off dumping the author column. as you suggest, it's
pretty
| obvious anyway.


Yeah, I think so .. and yeah, I hadn't seen your original.  Let's just
eliminate that extra column.



|
| > The cubes are lost and alone at the bottom .. plus why have the cubes
and
| > the words indicating number of articles written?  We don't need both ..
| > we've already decided on the cubes.  I think we're getting too granular
| > here.
|
| because the cubes are not an immediately obvious representation of
articles
| written, *and* i'd hope that the cubes gain wider use in the future (i.e.,
| to represent overall involvement in various things besides just articles).

Not sure I agree .. but its not important now.  :)

|
| currently, they're our indicator of committment to evolt.org. take a
| longtime contributor writing their first article, and they'll look wimpy.
| iconically, i think they're cool. just currently limited.

No where do they suggest the sole indication of a contributor's committment
to evolt. .. but again, let's not debate this now.  :)

|
| anyway, for now they could be shifted to next to the username.

Yeah +1

btw, your version has [?] what's that for ?

also, i think
| that the username here should be optionally (or by default) changed to
full
| name. i want to show my full name there but can i edit my username?


See my message on theforum that specifically discusses problems with the
existing data we have .. however, technically it could be an if realname
exists display otherwise don't.  However, it's not that simple I don't
think.

|
| btw, when i click "edit account", the form is blank instead of prefilled
| with my existing data. is that just a TEO thing? or because i've only
filled
| it in on WEO and not TEO?

Yeah, probably .. though, Dan would know for sure.  Did you edit it
recently?  I thought Dan updated the table data from weo to teo at CodeFest,
but that may have only been the article, etc. data.  There are two unique
databases used for each, so it's common for teo to be out of date,
content-wise.

|
| also btw, the visited link status in that box is invisible (i'm using
| mccreath's slate theme). do we need to class those links with .side?


I'll fix that when I get to editing the CSS files this weekend.

|
| > Email/MemberPage - I'd prefer to link only to the Author name (as it is
| > now).  The author's email is on the member page, unless they asked that
it
| > be hidden.  No reason to link to it separately.
|
| i think there is a reason to link to it separately and directly. saves a
| click. encourages interaction between members/readers. the existing format
| was "author info" with no indication (bar assumption) that the author info
| also included an email address.

Well, keep in mind that some users request that their email be hidden ..
which means it won't always be able to be displayed .. just as long as that
doesn't mess us the design, nor raise any consistency issues.  I still think
its unnecessary .. my opinion only of course.  :)

Mich
(*falling asleep .. sorry if this is jumbled*)





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 22:47:48 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:47:48 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <00cd01c16e54$99f716a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> I'd suggest eliminating "Total Ratings Received" .. I'm
> not sure it has any value .. and there are just too
> many words there, IMHO.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i added that.  and if you think about it, it *does* have value.  if we're
showing average ratings (which i think we should), it's good to know if that
average of 5.0 is out of 100 ratings or only 1.  it gives some relevance to
the rating.  besides, it's consistent with how we show the rating everywhere
else which is with the ratings as a relevance mark.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> And .. yes, let's not add any more classes .. as others
> suggested .. the ones for "sidebar" are probably best...
> not pagetitle tho, as that's not always changed.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

huh?  please explain your reasoning for not using pagetitle1.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Thu Nov 15 22:49:29 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:49:29 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <010101c16e5a$ae88d6c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

I like this a lot better ... way better in fact.

Except (of course ;) .. No Bio please .. let's leave that alone completely.
It will be on the Member Pages .. let's not do it now.  I don't want us
doing an interim Member Page .. let's get that done right.

btw, is this the link to comments that Jeff doesn't like, cos the form isn't
ready for "production" ?


Thanks,

Michele

----- Original Message -----
From: "isaac" 

|
| url is still: http://test.evolt.org/article/comment/22/3631/index.html
|





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 22:57:37 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:57:37 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

isaac,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: isaac
>
> > I'd suggest eliminating "Total Ratings Received" ..
> > I'm not sure it has any value .. and there are just
> > too many words there, IMHO.
>
> i think that's been added by jeff.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yes, it gives relevance to the author's total average rating.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> anyway, for now they could be shifted to next to the
> username. also, i think that the username here should
> be optionally (or by default) changed to full name.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

perhaps something like this instead:

if(firstname or lastname exist) {
firstname lastname } ([link to user page]username[/link]) cubes

author picture

articles
comments received
average rating received
total ratings received

comments given
average rating given
total ratings given

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i want to show my full name there but can i edit my
> username?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

no, usernames are set in stone.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> btw, when i click "edit account", the form is blank
> instead of prefilled with my existing data. is that
> just a TEO thing? or because i've only filled it in
> on WEO and not TEO?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

sorry, you found a bug with a change i made to the user edit screen.  should
be fixed now.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 22:58:52 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 15 22:58:52 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c16e5a$01df2dc0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

I've made more changes:

http://test.evolt.org/article/comment/22/3631/index.html

 - Box is now narrower
 - Layout altered
 - .jeff has added code that will stop the email link appearing if they
don't want it there
 - New "bio" link will jump down to an author's bio if it exists
 - Commented out rating info which was not working accurately. I don't think
my average rating (given or received) is 1.78... We might include this info
on the member page or something.



> No where do they suggest the sole indication of a contributor's
> committment to evolt. .. but again, let's not debate this now.  :)

They appear as a badge of honour. evolt.org is more than articles on a site.
It's a fair distinction to make, IMHO, that that badge is reflective of a
wider status within the community. How we judge that will be a different
matter. For now, we have the cubes to display the rough value, and then the
exact figure cos it's cool.

> btw, your version has [?] what's that for ?

Was so that people knew that they could find out what the cubes are.
Currently, there's no indication from the image that it's a link. I thought
that we couldn't assume that every user will mouseover, but it's fairly
standard practise within most communities (especially message boards). I've
left it out for now.

> exists display otherwise don't.  However, it's not that simple I don't
> think.

I think it might be, but anyway.

> | also btw, the visited link status in that box is invisible (i'm using
> | mccreath's slate theme). do we need to class those links with .side?
> I'll fix that when I get to editing the CSS files this weekend.

Already fixed it. It needed to be classed as "sidebar" instead of "side".

> Well, keep in mind that some users request that their email be hidden ..
> which means it won't always be able to be displayed .. just as
> long as that
> doesn't mess us the design, nor raise any consistency issues.  I
> still think
> its unnecessary .. my opinion only of course.  :)

Perhaps we'll keep it there for the added option for users. And it's loss
for those not wanting to show their address does not effect the layout. I
spotted jeff's code in there that appears to handle it OK (the "leaveout"
variable, right jeff?).

Thanks for checking it out and providing your input.

isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 23:02:55 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 15 23:02:55 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <010101c16e5a$ae88d6c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

> Except (of course ;) .. No Bio please .. let's leave that alone
> completely.
> It will be on the Member Pages .. let's not do it now.  I don't want us
> doing an interim Member Page .. let's get that done right.

This is the bio (article footer type thing) as being discussed on theforum.
That link will jump down to the bio, which will probably be placed between
the article and rating sections.

 From the discussions on theforum, you'll see that it's not part of the
member pages, but something set within preferences as a signature of sorts
for an article closing.

You can see an example of the bio-style being suggested here:

	http://www.digital-web.com/tutorials/


> btw, is this the link to comments that Jeff doesn't like, cos the
> form isn't
> ready for "production" ?

I think he's called for tests WRT this.


isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 23:03:01 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 23:03:01 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

isaac,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: isaac
>
>  - Commented out rating info which was not working
>    accurately. I don't think my average rating (given
>    or received) is 1.78... We might include this info
>    on the member page or something.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i think i know why it might have been doing that.  try uncommenting it and
see if the average is closer to what you think it's supposed to be.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> I spotted jeff's code in there that appears to handle it
> OK (the "leaveout" variable, right jeff?).
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yes.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 23:03:06 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 15 23:03:06 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> perhaps something like this instead:
>
> if(firstname or lastname exist) {
> firstname lastname } ([link to user page]username[/link]) cubes

yep.

> articles
> comments received
> average rating received
> total ratings received
>
> comments given
> average rating given
> total ratings given

i'm happy with that once the SQL is correct (unless you can prove i'm only
worth that 1.78/5 :p)

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > i want to show my full name there but can i edit my
> > username?
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> no, usernames are set in stone.

yes, was 99% sure.


btw, when can i start making a WEO stats page which shows top 10 article
writers, top 10 comment givers, top 10 rating giver, etc? i think that would
be fun.

if you tell me where to start putting in the code, and which URL will get me
there, i'll start playing around.


isaac




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 23:04:02 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 23:04:02 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <010101c16e5a$ae88d6c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
> 
> btw, is this the link to comments that Jeff doesn't
> like, cos the form isn't ready for "production" ?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yes, i put it in there.  feedback on the comments search please.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 23:10:04 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 23:10:04 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

isaac,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: isaac
> 
> i'm happy with that once the SQL is correct
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i think it's fixed now.  try it and see.

i'd do it, but i don't wanna walk over changes you've made.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> (unless you can prove i'm only worth that 1.78/5 :p)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

with 57 articles, hell yeah you're only worth 1.78 of 5.  ;p

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> btw, when can i start making a WEO stats page which
> shows top 10 article writers, top 10 comment givers,
> top 10 rating giver, etc? i think that would be fun.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah, i'd like to do something like that too.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> if you tell me where to start putting in the code, and
> which URL will get me there, i'll start playing around.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

message me offlist.  i'm not completely sure what you're asking.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 23:12:05 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Thu Nov 15 23:12:05 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> i think i know why it might have been doing that.  try uncommenting it and
> see if the average is closer to what you think it's supposed to be.

yeh, looks better now.

i'll leave you to reorder them and add the others for the:

--
articles written
ave. rating received
total ratings received


comments given
ave. ratings given
total ratings given
--

thing.


i




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Thu Nov 15 23:19:58 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Thu Nov 15 23:19:58 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <016901c16e5e$f0b72480$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: ".jeff" 

| i added that.  and if you think about it, it *does* have value.  if we're
| showing average ratings (which i think we should), it's good to know if
that
| average of 5.0 is out of 100 ratings or only 1.  it gives some relevance
to
| the rating.  besides, it's consistent with how we show the rating
everywhere
| else which is with the ratings as a relevance mark.

I see your point ... and I like Isaac's latest example .. what about
combining the info:

"Average Rating 5.0 of 100 ratings" ?

|
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
| > And .. yes, let's not add any more classes .. as others
| > suggested .. the ones for "sidebar" are probably best...
| > not pagetitle tho, as that's not always changed.
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
|
| huh?  please explain your reasoning for not using pagetitle1.
|

Looks to me like more people change the sidebar colour as opposed to the
pagetitle1 colour.  However, I think that's "WRONG" .. and that was what I
was trying to convey when I was talking about maintaining some sort of
"stability", "consistency", etc. with the CSS files, i.e. maintaining a
consistent look and feel.  Wasn't it you that said I couldn't alter an
author's CSS?  I think I should ... especially to make sure PT1 has been
modified, i.e. that it has not been left as the background content colour.
In which case we can use that.   (Sorry, I really don't want this to become
another long debate on the CSS files ;) ).

Mich






From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Thu Nov 15 23:30:17 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Thu Nov 15 23:30:17 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
References: <001a01c16e09$931e92e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <3BF361F3.7030007@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <017601c16e60$604c1840$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Dan,

For the sidebar,

Recent threads on thelist: ?


can you add class="sidebar" to the  tag and delete the  around the
question mark.

That should fix it.

Nice addition btw, it's good to pull all things together.


Mich


----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel J. Cody" 

i'm not sure about the  [?] thing either.. what should it be using for a
class?
|





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Thu Nov 15 23:33:49 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Thu Nov 15 23:33:49 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <016901c16e5e$f0b72480$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> I see your point ... and I like Isaac's latest example
> .. what about combining the info:
>
> "Average Rating 5.0 of 100 ratings" ?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

might be doable.  hard to do with the way it's set up now though, ie:

information title: information

make sense?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Looks to me like more people change the sidebar colour
> as opposed to the pagetitle1 colour.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

mccreath's granite is the only one that has pagetitle1 background-color set
the same as the main content area (.main ??).

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> However, I think that's "WRONG" .. and that was what I
> was trying to convey when I was talking about
> maintaining some sort of "stability", "consistency",
> etc. with the CSS files, i.e. maintaining a consistent
> look and feel.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i see what you're trying to say, but what if the author is purposely trying
to get a different look and feel by either making a bar across the page by
making the background-color for pagetitle1 and pagetitle2 the same or by
eliminating that bar altogether by making those background-colors the same
as main?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Wasn't it you that said I couldn't alter an author's
> CSS?  I think I should ... especially to make sure PT1
> has been modified, i.e. that it has not been left as the
> background content colour. In which case we can use
> that.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i do understand where you're coming from, but i still feel that altering the
css values is wrong and should be avoided.  changing those values, no matter
the reason, is altering the stylesheet author's intended result.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Thu Nov 15 23:55:03 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Thu Nov 15 23:55:03 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <018d01c16e63$d276c020$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: ".jeff" 


| michele,
|
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
| > From: Michele Foster
| >
| > I see your point ... and I like Isaac's latest example
| > .. what about combining the info:
| >
| > "Average Rating 5.0 of 100 ratings" ?
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
|
| might be doable.  hard to do with the way it's set up now though, ie:
|
| information title: information
|
| make sense?


Naw .. leave what you guys have now .. it's much better.  I was a few
messages behind, and responded before seeing the latest and greatest.  :)


|
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
| > Looks to me like more people change the sidebar colour
| > as opposed to the pagetitle1 colour.
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
|
| mccreath's granite is the only one that has pagetitle1 background-color
set
| the same as the main content area (.main ??).



I'm going to modify david's CSS (I'll talk to him about it offlist, I'm
convinced it's just an oversight, and that odd yellow for code too).

As such .. use whichever ya want I guess .. either .sidebar or .pagetitle1
classes.  For consistency purposes, .pagetitle1 class is probably more
sensible.

Mich
*really going to bed now*





From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 00:11:01 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 00:11:01 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF4680F.4971.E13A15D2@localhost>

> From: "isaac" 
> 
> url is still: http://test.evolt.org/article/comment/22/3631/index.html

*so* much better...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 00:23:07 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 00:23:07 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <016901c16e5e$f0b72480$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <3BF46AE4.17627.E14527B4@localhost>

> From: ".jeff" 
[...]
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > However, I think that's "WRONG" .. and that was what I
> > was trying to convey when I was talking about
> > maintaining some sort of "stability", "consistency",
> > etc. with the CSS files, i.e. maintaining a consistent
> > look and feel.
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> i see what you're trying to say, but what if the author is purposely
> trying to get a different look and feel by either making a bar across
> the page by making the background-color for pagetitle1 and pagetitle2
> the same or by eliminating that bar altogether by making those
> background-colors the same as main?

not to mention we've been down this road... remember, i had 
originally tried to keep that consistency in design, regardless of 
colors, by creating hard-coded relationships between classes so 
the style changer couldn't override them...

but that's not how it got built... (yes, i'm still in disagreement on 
how it got implemented)

given that it's been built the way it is, we need to just leave it up to 
the user to do whatever he/she wants...

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > Wasn't it you that said I couldn't alter an author's
> > CSS?  I think I should ... especially to make sure PT1
> > has been modified, i.e. that it has not been left as the
> > background content colour. In which case we can use
> > that.
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> i do understand where you're coming from, but i still feel that
> altering the css values is wrong and should be avoided.  changing
> those values, no matter the reason, is altering the stylesheet
> author's intended result.

i agree... changing the CSS because *you* feel it is wrong is just 
bad karma... the CSS author would have reason to be pissed... 
he/she did it for reason, and who are we to say it shouldn't be that 
way?  if we really think the identity is more important, then we 
shouldn't have allowed them that much control to begin with...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 00:26:32 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 00:26:32 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BF42021.32263.E0211C25@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BF46BB2.16358.E1484D46@localhost>

> From: "Russell J. Jungwirth" 
>
> I know that too many cooks spoil the soup, but I've gotta add my two
> cents.  Does evolt.org have a set of style conventions?  If we do,
[...]

one was started, and much of what you see on the site and in the 
graphics faq (http://evolt.org/evolt_images/index.html) was driven 
from that unofficial and incomplete document...

i recall much of it, mostly relating to the logo... the name is 
evolt.org, with the ".org", and lower-case except at the start of a 
sentence...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 00:37:47 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 00:37:47 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF4680F.4971.E13A15D2@localhost>
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF46E50.15110.E15283EF@localhost>

> > From: "isaac" 
> > 
> > url is still:
> > http://test.evolt.org/article/comment/22/3631/index.html

i'd like to toss a couple ideas in here...

- images early on, will those be a problem for the wrap?  what 
about code blocks?  who wanna test?  at 640, it'll get awfully, um, 
broken... even though the top of the page is least likely to have an 
image or caption...

- consider an article with captions, notice how nicely the captions 
(when styled) fit the design now?
http://test.evolt.org/article/sissy/20/15177/




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 00:46:45 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 00:46:45 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF46E50.15110.E15283EF@localhost>
Message-ID: 

aardvark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> - images early on, will those be a problem for the wrap?
>   what about code blocks?  who wanna test?  at 640,
>   it'll get awfully, um, broken... even though the top
>   of the page is least likely to have an image or
>   caption...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

we've got code blocks here
http://test.evolt.org/article/pleather/17/16286/

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> - consider an article with captions, notice how nicely
>   the captions (when styled) fit the design now?
>   http://test.evolt.org/article/sissy/20/15177/
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

don't go look at that in nn4, you won't be happy with what you see.  ;p

the same is true for the author block we're adding now as well.  i'm *so*
not sure what's causing the problems.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From martin at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 02:27:27 2001
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Fri Nov 16 02:27:27 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
Message-ID: 

Isaac Forman wrote on 16/11/01 1:27 am

>i imagine that the photo (65x86px i think) will sit in a /authorpics/ folder
>numbered according to id (i.e., i'd be 79.jpg). authors would submit theirs
>(pre scaled and optimised to meet filesize restrictions?) by email to anyone
>with ftp access.

OK, but you'd need a default image saying something like "no photo 
available"
for those who don't, or make the image display conditional on having the
image.

Cheers
Martin

_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
       martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
  tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985                      Edinburgh,
  url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk                 Scotland




From lists at mantruc.com  Fri Nov 16 06:46:00 2001
From: lists at mantruc.com (javier velasco (mantruc))
Date: Fri Nov 16 06:46:00 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
References: <01c16e27$315f65c0$594e149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <3BF50AD8.FE47572E@mantruc.com>

rudy wrote:

>      1 (bad)    2 (poor)    3 (good)    4 (excellent)    5(outstanding)

i like that one

> i still think people are going to rate average articles with a 4 -- it's
> only human nature

could be, but this scale does make you think a bit longer before giving up a
4, nice one rudeboy

--
Javier Velasco M.      -               nurun Chile
Information Architect  -       http://www.nurun.cl
----------------------- --------------------------
--       Personal: http://mantruc.com           --
--        Member of http://evolt.org            --





From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 08:21:55 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 08:21:55 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BF46E50.15110.E15283EF@localhost>
Message-ID: <200111161421.fAGELtjE025834@leo.evolt.org>

hey! who made that pic?!

> From: ".jeff" 
> 
> we've got code blocks here
> http://test.evolt.org/article/pleather/17/16286/

but they don't start until after the caption... what if the code block 
starts immediately?

is it safe to make a fake article on teo to test this?

if it is an issue, we can simply ask authors not to do that...

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > - consider an article with captions, notice how nicely
> >   the captions (when styled) fit the design now?
> >   http://test.evolt.org/article/sissy/20/15177/
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> don't go look at that in nn4, you won't be happy with what you see. 
> ;p

feh, known issue, not my comment at the end of:
http://test.evolt.org/article/nancyboy/20/15177/

and when can i kill whomever made the pic?

> the same is true for the author block we're adding now as well.  i'm
> *so* not sure what's causing the problems.

what problems? or rather, which problems?

the image overlapping the text can be fixed for NN4.x via a minor 
hack... align the image left (or right), and then right after the image, 
add a 
.... it's minor enough that it's worth 
considering...

btw, looking at that code, it's just development code, right?

btow (by the other way), i *really* like this layout...




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 09:24:04 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 09:24:04 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <200111161421.fAGELtjE025834@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

aardveen err vark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> hey! who made that pic?!
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

*evil grin*



><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > we've got code blocks here
> > http://test.evolt.org/article/pleather/17/16286/
>
> but they don't start until after the caption... what if
> the code block starts immediately?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

then i'd say it'd be an article with a shitty thesis statement.  ;p



><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> is it safe to make a fake article on teo to test this?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

if you want.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> if it is an issue, we can simply ask authors not to do
> that...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i don't think anybody will figure out how to do it and still write the
article well.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> feh, known issue, not my comment at the end of:
> http://test.evolt.org/article/nancyboy/20/15177/
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

"not" your comment?  ;p



><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> and when can i kill whomever made the pic?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

come and get me nancyboy

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > the same is true for the author block we're adding now as well.  i'm
> > *so* not sure what's causing the problems.
>
> what problems? or rather, which problems?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

http://members.evolt.org/jeff/screen_caps/nn4_author_block.jpg

the line-height for the .side class seems to be causing that.  taking it out
causes even worse problems.  don't get me started on how badly nn4 breaks
when i add padding to the style tag for the table containing the author
block.  *grrrr*

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> the image overlapping the text can be fixed for NN4.x
> via a minor hack... align the image left (or right),
> and then right after the image, add a 
.
> it's minor enough that it's worth considering...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

that seems to have worked without any adverse affects.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> btw, looking at that code, it's just development code,
> right?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

what do you mean?  if you mean, can the html be improved before going live
with it, sure.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> btow (by the other way), i *really* like this layout...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

thanks.

does that still mean you're going to try kill me?

later,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 09:38:47 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 09:38:47 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF451E4.1040907@members.evolt.org>

why can't regular anonymous users search for comments?

.jeff wrote:


> i've actually been working on the comments search engine and think maybe
> it's good to go for logged in users (priv >= 1).
> 
> i'd like some feedback:
> 
> http://test.evolt.org/comment/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 09:41:16 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 09:41:16 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

martin,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Martin
> 
> OK, but you'd need a default image saying something like
> "no photo available" for those who don't, or make the
> image display conditional on having the image.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

you mean like this?

http://test.evolt.org/article/scotstud/1/13136/

later,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 09:43:06 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 09:43:06 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: <3BF451E4.1040907@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> why can't regular anonymous users search for comments?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

they could, if we allowed them to.  i just think it should be a privilege
you earn with registration.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 09:48:32 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 09:48:32 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF4542C.40206@members.evolt.org>

not wanting to start a huge discussion here or anything, but i think we 
should..

there are times when i'm *not* logged in to evolt that i'd like to use 
that feature or don't have the time to login but just wanna do a quickie 
search.. also anonymous people can effectivley 'search' comments right 
now, albeit manually, so its not like we're showing them something they 
shouldn't be seeing.. lets not exlude anyone from using basic 
features(like searching) of our site just because *we* think they should 
  have a registered account with us. i can name 4 people i work with 
that read and search for articles on our site, but have never registered...

.djc.

.jeff wrote:

> dan,
> 
> 
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>From: Daniel J. Cody
>>
>>why can't regular anonymous users search for comments?
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> they could, if we allowed them to.  i just think it should be a privilege
> you earn with registration.





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 09:53:44 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 09:53:44 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: <3BF46E50.15110.E15283EF@localhost> <200111161421.fAGELtjE025834@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3BF45565.9000802@members.evolt.org>

+1

whats the method people are going to use for linking/uploading pictures?
how do i change mmy picture?

i'm not sure if it is or not, but i'd assume email is not shown if 
people have choosen to hide it?

same with name(i'd rather not have my name show up directly on the 
article page.. but thats just me)

what does bio link to?



aardvark wrote:


> btow (by the other way), i *really* like this layout...





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 09:55:31 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 09:55:31 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF455CF.6080600@members.evolt.org>

ya, the cubes are probably going to be used for more and different 
things in the future in addition to articles written

isaac wrote:


> They appear as a badge of honour. evolt.org is more than articles on a site.
> It's a fair distinction to make, IMHO, that that badge is reflective of a
> wider status within the community. How we judge that will be a different
> matter. For now, we have the cubes to display the rough value, and then the
> exact figure cos it's cool.





From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 10:05:26 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 10:05:26 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200111161421.fAGELtjE025834@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111161605.fAGG5MjE030115@leo.evolt.org>

> From: ".jeff" 
>
> aardveen err vark,

that's just wrong...

[...]
> 
> 
> > > we've got code blocks here
> > > http://test.evolt.org/article/pleather/17/16286/
> >
> > but they don't start until after the caption... what if
> > the code block starts immediately?
> 
> then i'd say it'd be an article with a shitty thesis statement.  ;p

hmmmm... i tend to agree... it's something we can restrict in the 
writers' guidelines, but i'd also like to know *how* it breaks...

> 
> 
> > is it safe to make a fake article on teo to test this?
> 
> if you want.

http://test.evolt.org/article/dancing_monkey_boy/18/16861/

[...]
> > feh, known issue, not my comment at the end of:
> > http://test.evolt.org/article/nancyboy/20/15177/
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> "not" your comment?  ;p

er, *note* my comment... geez, you forget an 'e' once in your life, 
and everyone jumps down yer throat...

> 

ooh...

how 'bout another pinch, slugger?

> > and when can i kill whomever made the pic?
> 
> come and get me nancyboy

panty-waist...

[...]
> http://members.evolt.org/jeff/screen_caps/nn4_author_block.jpg
> 
> the line-height for the .side class seems to be causing that.  taking
> it out causes even worse problems.  don't get me started on how badly
> nn4 breaks when i add padding to the style tag for the table
> containing the author block.  *grrrr*

not surprised... are we prepared for it to look... um... odd in NN4.x 
now?

> > the image overlapping the text can be fixed for NN4.x
> > via a minor hack... align the image left (or right),
> > and then right after the image, add a 
.
> > it's minor enough that it's worth considering...
> 
> that seems to have worked without any adverse affects.

good... it's a hack, but at least it works...

> > btw, looking at that code, it's just development code,
> > right?
> 
> what do you mean?  if you mean, can the html be improved before going
> live with it, sure.

good... not that it's bad... too bad...

> > btow (by the other way), i *really* like this layout...
> 
> thanks.
> 
> does that still mean you're going to try kill me?

yes.




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 10:08:08 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 10:08:08 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF45565.9000802@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> whats the method people are going to use for
> linking/uploading pictures? how do i change mmy picture?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

the image *must* be on the server in the users images folder
(/images/#userid#/) and be named author.gif or author.jpg.  if we get the go
ahead on this layout then i'll add the ability to upload an image to the
user account page.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i'm not sure if it is or not, but i'd assume email is
> not shown if people have choosen to hide it?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

correct

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> same with name(i'd rather not have my name show up
> directly on the article page.. but thats just me)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

more people have requested to have the name displayed than have chosen to
not have it displayed.  it's already on the user page.  this just saves the
viewer a click (same with the email link).

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> what does bio link to?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

click it and see  *grin*

seriously though, it's a bookmark to the proposed bio section (the one
discussed on theforum).

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 10:20:00 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 10:20:00 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <200111161605.fAGG5MjE030115@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

aardvark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> > aardveen err vark,
>
> that's just wrong...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

you hadn't seen that pic til now?  i could have sworn i showed it to you
post-austin.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > then i'd say it'd be an article with a shitty thesis
> > statement.  ;p
>
> hmmmm... i tend to agree... it's something we can
> restrict in the writers' guidelines, but i'd also like
> to know *how* it breaks...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

of course.  sounds good to me.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> how 'bout another pinch, slugger?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

like i said, "come and get me nancyboy".

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> panty-waist...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

leather-daddy.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> not surprised... are we prepared for it to look... um...
> odd in NN4.x now?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

doesn't need to -- keep reading.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > that seems to have worked without any adverse affects.
>
> good... it's a hack, but at least it works...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yup, so problem solved.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > what do you mean?  if you mean, can the html be
> > improved before going live with it, sure.
>
> good... not that it's bad... too bad...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

how about instead of suggesting improvements rather than mumbling.  ;p

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > does that still mean you're going to try kill me?
>
> yes.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

sweet.  let me know when you can afford the airfare and i'll make sure my
schedule is such that i can pick you up from the airport.

later,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 10:25:20 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 10:25:20 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: <3BF4542C.40206@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> there are times when i'm *not* logged in to evolt that
> i'd like to use that feature [...]
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

so take the 5 seconds it takes to login

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> or don't have the time to login [...]
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

bah (see above)

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> also anonymous people can effectivley 'search' comments
> right now, albeit manually, [...]
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

how so?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> lets not exlude anyone from using basic features(like
> searching) of our site just because *we* think they
> should have a registered account with us.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

we're not.  the basic search still works for non-logged in users.  users
can't post comments unless they're logged in.  i think it just makes sense
that they also can't search comments unless they're logged in.  we're not
excluding anybody since anybody can register an account with us.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i can name 4 people i work with that read and search for
> articles on our site, but have never registered...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

and they can continue to search for articles.  they just can't search
comments.  why don't they register on the site?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov 16 10:38:16 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov 16 10:38:16 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
Message-ID: <01cd01c16ebd$b77a3b80$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Hi Guys,

Look at an article I wrote ....
http://test.evolt.org/cubes_definition/index.html

My other articles aren't listed .. as I've only written FAQs ... it actually
says "This user has yet to write any articles."  :(

I think that query needs to include *all* categories???

Thanks,

Mich





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov 16 10:51:49 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov 16 10:51:49 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <01d801c16ebf$9ce2c240$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Jeff,

----- Original Message -----
From: ".jeff" 

|
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
dan wrote:
| > same with name(i'd rather not have my name show up
| > directly on the article page.. but thats just me)
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
|
| more people have requested to have the name displayed than have chosen to
| not have it displayed.  it's already on the user page.  this just saves
the
| viewer a click (same with the email link).
|


I don't want my name there either .. can it be an option on the member page?



What information would you like displayed for "Author" for articles you have
written?

[rb] Show my Full Name and evolt.org UserID
[rb] Show only my evolt.org UserID
[rb] Show only my Full Name



Which begs the question .. are you going to allow Full Names to be used for
Author links within Comments ?

Also, can the "bio" be a trigger?  if exists sort of thing?

Thanks,

Mich




From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 10:55:17 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 10:55:17 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF463D1.7020503@members.evolt.org>

.jeff wrote:

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>From: Daniel J. Cody
>>
>>there are times when i'm *not* logged in to evolt that
>>i'd like to use that feature [...]
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> so take the 5 seconds it takes to login


regardless, if what i'm looking for only takes me 10 seconds to find..


>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>or don't have the time to login [...]
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> bah (see above)


i know its hard to believe, but people dont' always(want to) log in. 
public places, at work, whatever.

we may be at the same computers all day, but that doesn't mean everyone is


>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>also anonymous people can effectivley 'search' comments
>>right now, albeit manually, [...]
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> how so?


click on an article and read them.


>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>lets not exlude anyone from using basic features(like
>>searching) of our site just because *we* think they
>>should have a registered account with us.
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> we're not.  the basic search still works for non-logged in users.  users
> can't post comments unless they're logged in.  i think it just makes sense
> that they also can't search comments unless they're logged in.  


by that logic, only people that are logged in should be able to search articles 

since you have to be logged in to submit an article. or to search the 
archives you have to be on thelist

 
 
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>i can name 4 people i work with that read and search for
>>articles on our site, but have never registered...
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> and they can continue to search for articles.  they just can't search
> comments.  why don't they register on the site?


*shrug* they don't plan on submitting articles or comments. they just 
want to read articles.. why would they register?
alot of talk about community lately and building that.. thats cool.

lets not forget that the majority of people visiting our website are 
just here to read content. if they feel compelled to submit something to 
our website, they'll register. we shouldn't make people jump through our 
hoops and register an account they'll more than likely never use again 
just to search comments.

we have enough stale accounts in teh DB as is me thinks..

sorry about my clock being off.. i don't feel like rebooting to reset 
the system clock

.djc.






From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 10:58:20 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 10:58:20 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200111161605.fAGG5MjE030115@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111161658.fAGGwJjE000584@leo.evolt.org>

> From: ".jeff" 
>
> you hadn't seen that pic til now?  i could have sworn i showed it to
> you post-austin.

no... unless i saw it and forget it out of sheer horror...

[...]
> > panty-waist...
> 
> leather-daddy.

hey, thanks!

> > not surprised... are we prepared for it to look... um...
> > odd in NN4.x now?
> 
> doesn't need to -- keep reading.
> 
> > > that seems to have worked without any adverse affects.
> >
> > good... it's a hack, but at least it works...
> 
> yup, so problem solved.

i thought you also said padding was an issue... and at low 
resolutions, it gets kinda wonky, too...

> > > what do you mean?  if you mean, can the html be
> > > improved before going live with it, sure.
> >
> > good... not that it's bad... too bad...
> 
> how about instead of suggesting improvements rather than mumbling.  ;p

ok, why are we using ?  it's no smaller for me than if you 
dumped it and *just* used the sidebar class...

also, inconsistencies in indenting make it hard to read...

and do you think we're being a little -happy in there?  none 
of those need to be pronounced strongly, so would a CSS style be 
more appropriate?

should we remove all table padding attributes and rely on CSS?

and for those who haven't seen how it may look with code blocks 
alongside:
http://test.evolt.org/article/dancing_monkey_boy/18/16861/

> > > does that still mean you're going to try kill me?
> >
> > yes.
> 
> sweet.  let me know when you can afford the airfare and i'll make sure
> my schedule is such that i can pick you up from the airport.

um, then how do i get back to the airport?

at least that guy on ebay just kicks your ass...




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 11:00:32 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 11:00:32 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <01cd01c16ebd$b77a3b80$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> Look at an article I wrote ....
> http://test.evolt.org/cubes_definition/index.html
>
> My other articles aren't listed .. as I've only written
> FAQs ... it actually says "This user has yet to write
> any articles."  :(
>
> I think that query needs to include *all* categories???
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

we chose to not include news, jobs, suggestions, or faq because we wanted to
only list articles that were likely to be of higher quality.

i'd be interested in entertaining alternatives to simply allowing articles
in these categories to be listed.  perhaps we simply hide the "other
articles by this author" block if there aren't any.  other ideas?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 11:01:01 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 11:01:01 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF46529.6080903@members.evolt.org>


.jeff wrote:


>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>From: Daniel J. Cody
>>
>>whats the method people are going to use for
>>linking/uploading pictures? how do i change mmy picture?
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> the image *must* be on the server in the users images folder
> (/images/#userid#/) and be named author.gif or author.jpg.  if we get the go
> ahead on this layout then i'll add the ability to upload an image to the
> user account page.


cool


> more people have requested to have the name displayed than have chosen to
> not have it displayed.  it's already on the user page.  this just saves the
> viewer a click (same with the email link).


i know.. i just liked having that extra click there for people to see my 
name.. maybe its just me..


>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>what does bio link to?
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> click it and see  *grin*
> 
> seriously though, it's a bookmark to the proposed bio section (the one
> discussed on theforum).


ok. this link and the bio section will also be toggled depending on the 
existance of a bio, right?






From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 11:04:24 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 11:04:24 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF465F5.4070509@members.evolt.org>

i think we can all agree that FAQ articles for example are 'high 
quality'.. in fact, i don't see any harm in listing them all. the person 
deserves just as much credit for themselves whether its a job 
description or a 3 page CSS how-to or a suggestion(which we should be 
advocating more)

.djc.

.jeff wrote:

> michele,
> 
> 
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>From: Michele Foster
>>
>>Look at an article I wrote ....
>>http://test.evolt.org/cubes_definition/index.html
>>
>>My other articles aren't listed .. as I've only written
>>FAQs ... it actually says "This user has yet to write
>>any articles."  :(
>>
>>I think that query needs to include *all* categories???
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> we chose to not include news, jobs, suggestions, or faq because we wanted to
> only list articles that were likely to be of higher quality.
> 
> i'd be interested in entertaining alternatives to simply allowing articles
> in these categories to be listed.  perhaps we simply hide the "other
> articles by this author" block if there aren't any.  other ideas?





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov 16 11:10:32 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov 16 11:10:32 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
References: 
Message-ID: <01e701c16ec2$3a839fe0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: ".jeff" 



| > I think that query needs to include *all* categories???
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
|
| we chose to not include news, jobs, suggestions, or faq because we wanted
to
| only list articles that were likely to be of higher quality.
|
| i'd be interested in entertaining alternatives to simply allowing articles
| in these categories to be listed.  perhaps we simply hide the "other
| articles by this author" block if there aren't any.  other ideas?
|


That works fine for me ... I just didn't like the "This user has yet to
write any articles."

It still shows up above that I've written 3 articles in total. (I know,
that's pathetic :( )


Thanks,

Michele





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov 16 11:16:39 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov 16 11:16:39 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
References:  <3BF465F5.4070509@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <01ec01c16ec3$122865c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Good points Dan .....

I'm game either way ..

One option would be to order the query results by categories .. those with
articles in the more highly regarded categories will get displayed first ?
IOW change the order of the articles to be by category, where we select the
order of the categories (ack, that's messy, I don't think that can be done
easily).


Jeff, what does it say if an author has only written ONE article?  I guess I
should go find an author with one article on teo and find out.. hehe

Mich


----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel J. Cody" 



| i think we can all agree that FAQ articles for example are 'high
| quality'.. in fact, i don't see any harm in listing them all. the person
| deserves just as much credit for themselves whether its a job
| description or a 3 page CSS how-to or a suggestion(which we should be
| advocating more)
|
| .djc.
|





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov 16 11:20:42 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov 16 11:20:42 2001
Subject: Style Changer ... was .... Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: <016901c16e5e$f0b72480$95aa2642@aci.on.ca> <3BF46AE4.17627.E14527B4@localhost>
Message-ID: <01f301c16ec3$a64c9780$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Let's start with a new subject line .... ;)

Adrian,

I think you are (a) confused or (b) misinformed .. in a good way of course.
Let me explain.


----- Original Message -----
From: "aardvark" 

|
| not to mention we've been down this road... remember, i had
| originally tried to keep that consistency in design, regardless of
| colors, by creating hard-coded relationships between classes so
| the style changer couldn't override them...
|
| but that's not how it got built... (yes, i'm still in disagreement on
| how it got implemented)
|
| given that it's been built the way it is, we need to just leave it up to
| the user to do whatever he/she wants...


First of all, there is NO style changer currently built that is in use ..
not the way you are referring to one anyway.

Background:  Several months ago, we knew we were getting "low" on new style
schemes for new evolt projects.  So, a call went out to those members on
thesite to create some new colour schemes.  The files were available as a
download (you might remember I gave the wrong files at first).  No
guidelines or anything were given .. it was just, go for it .. play with
colour, have fun .. create something.

Old info ... not of real importance.

However, now what we've got is .... Dan and Jeff have added an "Edit
Membership" link to t.e.o.  The only thing there at the moment is choosing a
different style.  All of those CSS files are static .. they were randomly
chosen from the ones that were created during the "let's have fun with
colour" exercise above.  They were never verified, nor "approved" to meet
the requirements for evolt's CMS.

There is no random style changer.  There isn't anything in place that,
programmatically, could show the editors of the CSS files what should be the
same colour, font or whatever within the various classes.

Now, I think when the exercise was first introduced, more background should
have been given.  People should have been informed how to work with the CSS
files, how to maintain the original consistency, what exactly all those
"comments" meant, etc.  I'm only now, digging deeper, understanding exactly
what it is you meant with those comments in the files and how each piece
impacts another.

So, I think we are in a situation now where we can say "to heck with the
original intent" .. or we can say, "let's clean up the proposed CSS files
for use, and make sure they keep the original intent" as you've commented in
your CSS files.

THEN .. if and when a real programmable CSS style changer is built, we can
continue on with the hard work and careful consideration you've already
given to maintaining consistency within the CSS's used for evolt.

So, what say you ... should we go ad hoc now and allow anything and
everything .. or is it much better to clean up the proposed CSS files and
make sure that your original intent is still maintained?

Keep in mind .. the authors of the CSS files will be given the opportunity
to say "yes, I still want my name associated with that CSS scheme", or "no,
it changed too much from what I had in mind, please remove my name".

Thanks,

Michele





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov 16 11:24:38 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov 16 11:24:38 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
References:  <3BF463D1.7020503@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <01f601c16ec4$32ae1780$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

I +1 what dan's saying ... I'd rather the New Comments and the Comment
search be available to anyone visiting, regardless of log-in status.

Jeeze, even I used to visit the site a few times a week before I signed up
for an account 10 months after I found evolt.  I use the New Comments every
day now .. (of course, I can see them ;)) .. but its great to see where the
new content is.  There are articles I've read and re-read cos of the New
Comments feature.  Wasn't it Martin that pointed out earlier this week, he
added a comment to an old article of Wolf's .. which I'd never stumbled
across .. but did when I say there was a comment on it .. Nice Article, btw.

My two cents,


Mich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel J. Cody" 
|

| lets not forget that the majority of people visiting our website are
| just here to read content. if they feel compelled to submit something to
| our website, they'll register. we shouldn't make people jump through our
| hoops and register an account they'll more than likely never use again
| just to search comments.





From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 12:01:06 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:01:06 2001
Subject: Style Changer ... was .... Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <01f301c16ec3$a64c9780$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <200111161801.fAGI15jE003306@leo.evolt.org>

> From: "Michele Foster" 
>
> Let's start with a new subject line .... ;)

woo!

> I think you are (a) confused or (b) misinformed .. in a good way of
> course. Let me explain.

a) yes, b) yes, c) talking about something else...

> First of all, there is NO style changer currently built that is in use
> .. not the way you are referring to one anyway.

correct... i was referring to the one .jeff was working on... it allowed 
users to customize *every* aspect of the CSS, thereby eliminating 
any inter-relation between elements or styles...

> Background:  Several months ago, we knew we were getting "low" on new
> style schemes for new evolt projects.  So, a call went out to those
> members on thesite to create some new colour schemes.  The files were
> available as a download (you might remember I gave the wrong files at
> first).  No guidelines or anything were given .. it was just, go for
> it .. play with colour, have fun .. create something.

right, this part i know, i took part in it and tried to show people how 
to use the comments in the CSS as guidelines, but that they could 
still go to town...

but that's not what i was talking about...

> Old info ... not of real importance.
> 
> However, now what we've got is .... Dan and Jeff have added an "Edit
> Membership" link to t.e.o.  The only thing there at the moment is
> choosing a different style.  All of those CSS files are static .. they
> were randomly chosen from the ones that were created during the "let's
> have fun with colour" exercise above.  They were never verified, nor
> "approved" to meet the requirements for evolt's CMS.

got that, i was part of that...

> There is no random style changer.  There isn't anything in place that,
> programmatically, could show the editors of the CSS files what should
> be the same colour, font or whatever within the various classes.

well, no, not yet... frankly i don't know if .jeff's style changer was 
abandoned (i thought it wasn't, which has been much of my point of 
reference)...

> Now, I think when the exercise was first introduced, more background
> should have been given.  People should have been informed how to work
> with the CSS files, how to maintain the original consistency, what
> exactly all those "comments" meant, etc.  I'm only now, digging
> deeper, understanding exactly what it is you meant with those comments
> in the files and how each piece impacts another.

i sent out a notice to explain that part... granted it may not have 
been clear enough, but nobody indicated it wasn't...

> So, I think we are in a situation now where we can say "to heck with
> the original intent" .. or we can say, "let's clean up the proposed
> CSS files for use, and make sure they keep the original intent" as
> you've commented in your CSS files.

sure

> THEN .. if and when a real programmable CSS style changer is built, we
> can continue on with the hard work and careful consideration you've
> already given to maintaining consistency within the CSS's used for
> evolt.

erm, dunno 'bout that... we've already set a precedent...

> So, what say you ... should we go ad hoc now and allow anything and
> everything .. or is it much better to clean up the proposed CSS files
> and make sure that your original intent is still maintained?

it was (and still is) the latter, but we've already gone beyond that... 
i'm just trying to make sure that we don't continue to go beyond it 
to the point that we bloat our CSS or create truly unworkable stuff...

> Keep in mind .. the authors of the CSS files will be given the
> opportunity to say "yes, I still want my name associated with that CSS
> scheme", or "no, it changed too much from what I had in mind, please
> remove my name".

poor bastages...




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov 16 12:16:44 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:16:44 2001
Subject: Style Changer ... was .... Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: <200111161801.fAGI15jE003306@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <007801c16ecb$7ad23ee0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: "aardvark" 

| > I think you are (a) confused or (b) misinformed .. in a good way of
| > course. Let me explain.
|
| a) yes, b) yes, c) talking about something else...
|
| > First of all, there is NO style changer currently built that is in use
| > .. not the way you are referring to one anyway.
|
| correct... i was referring to the one .jeff was working on... it allowed
| users to customize *every* aspect of the CSS, thereby eliminating
| any inter-relation between elements or styles...


Never seen it .. didn't know it was being worked on.

Jeff, got a URL ?

Or, are you referring to the one Josh was playing with here:

http://members.evolt.org/joshua/

??

Which isn't being used in any way .. no guidelines, etc.  .. was just for
fun, AFAIK.  To the best of my knowledge, this app. isn't going any further
... not by Josh anyway.

So, who's confused now ?  ;)


Mich





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 12:19:21 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:19:21 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <200111161658.fAGGwJjE000584@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

aardvark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> no... unless i saw it and forget it out of sheer
> horror...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

it's creepy how well the faces line up eh?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i thought you also said padding was an issue... and at
> low resolutions, it gets kinda wonky, too...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

oh boy is it an issue.  padding doesn't actually do what we want.  we need
to use margin.  i'll put it back on just so you can see what i'm talking
about.  check this out in nn4:

http://test.evolt.org/article/wuss/20/15177/

ummmm, pretty overlayed graphics, yummm.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> ok, why are we using ?  it's no smaller for me
> than if you dumped it and *just* used the sidebar
> class...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

incorrect.  using , at least with some of the stylesheets, is
definitely a couple of pixels smaller.

view the article above using granite.css.  i've left the "received" section
wrapped in , but removed  from the "given" section.  see the
size difference?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> also, inconsistencies in indenting make it hard to
> read...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

inconsistencies where?  the author block?  or the content flowed to the left
of the author block?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> and do you think we're being a little -happy in
> there?  none of those need to be pronounced strongly, so
> would a CSS style be more appropriate?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

perhaps.  i'd just like to avoid styling these things as much as possible.
since the items to the left are labels or identifiers for the information to
the right it seemed right to denote that by wrapping the items on the left
with .  i've removed it from the "received" section to see what it
looks like.  i don't know if i like it better or not.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> should we remove all table padding attributes and rely
> on CSS?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i don't know that that will solve any of our problems.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> and for those who haven't seen how it may look with code
> blocks alongside:
> http://test.evolt.org/article/kiss_the_monkey/18/16861/
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

that looks pretty good, at least in ie6.  i'm almost afraid to see how badly
nn4 butchers it.

just looked, and yup, the textarea overlaps the author block.  some of the
stylesheets have a lineheight set for .content so the text disappears
underneath the textareas, pictures, etc.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> um, then how do i get back to the airport?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i can "arrange" to have someone take you back.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> at least that guy on ebay just kicks your ass...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

huh?

later,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 12:20:51 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:20:51 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF46529.6080903@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> i know.. i just liked having that extra click there for
> people to see my name.. maybe its just me..
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i used to think so too, but i'm growing to like it.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > seriously though, it's a bookmark to the proposed bio
> > section (the one discussed on theforum).
>
> ok. this link and the bio section will also be toggled
> depending on the existance of a bio, right?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yes, precisely.  that part just isn't setup right now because i don't have
anything to query to determine whether or not it should show.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 12:24:31 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:24:31 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <3BF465F5.4070509@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> i think we can all agree that FAQ articles for example
> are 'high quality'..
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

no argument there.  however, faq are meta-data (ie, data about the site) and
therefore subject to different rules.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> in fact, i don't see any harm in listing them all. the
> person deserves just as much credit for themselves
> whether its a job description or a 3 page CSS how-to
> or a suggestion(which we should be advocating more)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

this isn't for how many cubes are displayed.  this is simply for the "other
articles by this author" section below the "rate this article" section.  in
this "other articles by this author" we (those of us who implemented it at
codefest) talked about it and thought it should be the 5 highest quality
articles and therefore should follow the same rules used for selecting other
articles on the site based on rating.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 12:30:16 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:30:16 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <01e701c16ec2$3a839fe0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> | perhaps we simply hide the "other articles by this
> | author" block if there aren't any.  other ideas?
>
> That works fine for me ... I just didn't like the "This
> user has yet to write any articles."
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i didn't like that either, which is why i'd like to find a solution.  what
i'd prefer to do is figure out how to order it so these less desirable
categories appear last in the results.  that way if the author has only
written a few we can still use them, but for those authors who've written a
ton, we'll be displaying their best 5 which aren't likely to be in these
categories.

rudy, you got any ideas about this?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 12:32:34 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:32:34 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <01ec01c16ec3$122865c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
> 
> Jeff, what does it say if an author has only written
> ONE article? 
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

you mean like this one?

http://test.evolt.org/article/xp/20/16220/

"This user has yet to write any articles."

ugh, in this instance it should say:

"This user has yet to write any other articles."

later,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 12:37:09 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:37:09 2001
Subject: Style Changer ... was .... Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <01f301c16ec3$a64c9780$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> So, I think we are in a situation now where we can say
> "to heck with the original intent"
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

+1

allowing more flexibility and therefore variation in look and feel is a good
thing?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> So, what say you ... should we go ad hoc now and allow
> anything and everything
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

-1

i don't think anybody is advocating allowing "anything and everything".  all
we're saying is that with alittle planning, we can permit what's already in
use in various stylesheets.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> .. or is it much better to clean up the proposed CSS
> files and make sure that your original intent is still
> maintained?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

-1

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Keep in mind .. the authors of the CSS files will be
> given the opportunity to say "yes, I still want my name
> associated with that CSS scheme", or "no, it changed too
> much from what I had in mind, please remove my name".
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

we'd still have to give them credit because the stylesheets would still be a
work derived from copyright work.  that's part of why we can't just go
changing the stylesheets.  it's the author's copyright material, not ours.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 12:43:20 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:43:20 2001
Subject: Style Changer ... was .... Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <200111161801.fAGI15jE003306@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

aardvark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> > First of all, there is NO style changer currently
> > built that is in use .. not the way you are referring
> > to one anyway.
>
> correct... i was referring to the one .jeff was working
> on... it allowed users to customize *every* aspect of
> the CSS, thereby eliminating any inter-relation between
> elements or styles...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

only because i was lazy and didn't want to build all the logic to maintain
the connection between the various pieces.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> well, no, not yet... frankly i don't know if .jeff's
> style changer was abandoned (i thought it wasn't, which
> has been much of my point of reference)...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

for now it has been and will continue to be so until i have the time to do
it right.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > THEN .. if and when a real programmable CSS style
> > changer is built, we can continue on with the hard
> > work and careful consideration you've already given
> > to maintaining consistency within the CSS's used for
> > evolt.
>
> erm, dunno 'bout that... we've already set a
> precedent...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

+1

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i'm just trying to make sure that we don't continue to
> go beyond it to the point that we bloat our CSS or
> create truly unworkable stuff...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

that's my goal as well.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 12:44:24 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:44:24 2001
Subject: Style Changer ... was .... Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <007801c16ecb$7ad23ee0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
> 
> Never seen it .. didn't know it was being worked on.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

nearly a year ago it was.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Jeff, got a URL ?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

wouldn't work if i gave it to ya.  it's commented out for now.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> So, who's confused now ?  ;)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

you.  ;p

later,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 12:45:33 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:45:33 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF47DA9.6050100@members.evolt.org>

pukes in moz 0.9.5 and the layout is wacky in lynx

.jeff wrote:


> oh boy is it an issue.  padding doesn't actually do what we want.  we need
> to use margin.  i'll put it back on just so you can see what i'm talking
> about.  check this out in nn4:
> 
> http://test.evolt.org/article/wuss/20/15177/
> 
> ummmm, pretty overlayed graphics, yummm.
>





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 12:47:37 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:47:37 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF47E25.8090607@members.evolt.org>

.jeff wrote:

> dan,
> 
> 
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>From: Daniel J. Cody
>>
>>i think we can all agree that FAQ articles for example
>>are 'high quality'..
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> no argument there.  however, faq are meta-data (ie, data about the site) and
> therefore subject to different rules.


what rules would those be?


>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>in fact, i don't see any harm in listing them all. the
>>person deserves just as much credit for themselves
>>whether its a job description or a 3 page CSS how-to
>>or a suggestion(which we should be advocating more)
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> this isn't for how many cubes are displayed.  this is simply for the "other
> articles by this author" section below the "rate this article" section.  in
> this "other articles by this author" we (those of us who implemented it at
> codefest) talked about it and thought it should be the 5 highest quality
> articles and therefore should follow the same rules used for selecting other
> articles on the site based on rating.


i realize its not related to cubes and i don't see what its got to do 
with 'other articles...'

.djc.





From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 12:57:18 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 12:57:18 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200111161658.fAGGwJjE000584@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111161857.fAGIvHjE006277@leo.evolt.org>

> From: ".jeff" 
>
> > no... unless i saw it and forget it out of sheer
> > horror...
> 
> it's creepy how well the faces line up eh?

that's why you've got Photoshop... what's funny is i remember that 
photo being taken (the one on the left)...

> > i thought you also said padding was an issue... and at
> > low resolutions, it gets kinda wonky, too...
> 
> oh boy is it an issue.  padding doesn't actually do what we want.  we
> need to use margin.  i'll put it back on just so you can see what i'm
> talking about.  check this out in nn4:
> 
> http://test.evolt.org/article/wuss/20/15177/
> 
> ummmm, pretty overlayed graphics, yummm.

NN4.08
http://roselli.org/xfer/evolt_author.gif

erm, seems ok...

> > ok, why are we using ?  it's no smaller for me
> > than if you dumped it and *just* used the sidebar
> > class...
> 
> incorrect.  using , at least with some of the stylesheets, is
> definitely a couple of pixels smaller.

so, not incorrect, just incorrect with some CSS files?

> view the article above using granite.css.  i've left the "received"
> section wrapped in , but removed  from the "given"
> section.  see the size difference?

ahhh, yes...

so, we're going to stuff style-only HTML into our page strictly to 
adjust the size of the text, then?

yes, that's a weighted question... i don't see how  offers 
any structure or semantic meaning to the content within...

> > also, inconsistencies in indenting make it hard to
> > read...
> 
> inconsistencies where?  the author block?  or the content flowed to
> the left of the author block?

in the HTML...

> > and do you think we're being a little -happy in
> > there?  none of those need to be pronounced strongly, so
> > would a CSS style be more appropriate?
> 
> perhaps.  i'd just like to avoid styling these things as much as
> possible. since the items to the left are labels or identifiers for
> the information to the right it seemed right to denote that by
> wrapping the items on the left with .  i've removed it from
> the "received" section to see what it looks like.  i don't know if i
> like it better or not.

i prefer how it looks un-ed...

but even if i didn't, i'd rather see more CSS than HTML that offers 
no valid structure/semantic value...

doesn't mean i want to add CSS, it's just a lesser evil, IMO...

> > should we remove all table padding attributes and rely
> > on CSS?
> 
> i don't know that that will solve any of our problems.

i doubt it would, but that's not why i suggested it... doesn't matter 
to me, really, just curious...

> > and for those who haven't seen how it may look with code
> > blocks alongside:
> > http://test.evolt.org/article/kiss_the_monkey/18/16861/
> 
> that looks pretty good, at least in ie6.  i'm almost afraid to see how
> badly nn4 butchers it.
> 
> just looked, and yup, the textarea overlaps the author block.  some of
> the stylesheets have a lineheight set for .content so the text
> disappears underneath the textareas, pictures, etc.

no text disappearance... but still, yeah, way wonky...
http://roselli.org/xfer/evolt_layout.gif

> > um, then how do i get back to the airport?
> 
> i can "arrange" to have someone take you back.

is he in the concrete business?

> > at least that guy on ebay just kicks your ass...
> 
> huh?

sorry, thought you were more hep to internet jokes...




From joshua at alphashop.net  Fri Nov 16 13:03:52 2001
From: joshua at alphashop.net (Joshua Olson)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:03:52 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
References:  <3BF47E25.8090607@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <074501c16ed3$11445410$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com>

Would a dark colored (single pixel) border around this feature (way cool,
btw) be appropriate?

-joshua




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 13:06:07 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:06:07 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF47DA9.6050100@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
> 
> pukes in moz 0.9.5 [...]
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i don't see any problems here in nn6.1 (rev 0.9.2)

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> and the layout is wacky in lynx
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

actually, i think the layout is surprisingly good in lynx.

just my 2c,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 13:10:04 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:10:04 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <3BF47E25.8090607@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> > no argument there.  however, faq are meta-data (ie,
> > data about the site) and therefore subject to
> > different rules.
>
> what rules would those be?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

we (this list) already decided that certain categories of articles would be
restricted from appearing in the "highest rated articles" box in the
sidebar.  when implementing the view articles by rating at codefest, matt
and i followed this same rule.  when i helped implement the "other articles
by this author" initially it included ratings as well and is still ranked by
ratings like the two things i just mentioned.  for consistency, i think it
should have its category of content restricted as well like the two i just
mentioned.  now, if rudy comes up with an idea of how to do it and have
articles in these categories returned last, then i'm cool with that.

later,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From webguru at vsnl.net  Fri Nov 16 13:19:06 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:19:06 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
In-Reply-To: <20011116033429.C88129C4@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011117004451.029a8008@203.197.12.4>

At 09:04 AM 11/16/2001, the great Rudy spake thus:

> >      1 (bad)    2 (poor)    3 (good)    4 (excellent)    5(outstanding)

How about:

1) Poor 2) Average 3) Good 4) Very good 5) Excellent

I have bad experiences with having both "excellent" and "outstanding". From 
what I've learnt doing countless pointless performance reviews, very few 
people even know the distinction between "excellent" and "outstanding" (I 
still don't).

If you keep 'em both, you'll only encourage more "4" ratings. Trust me.

(Of course, I'd argue for a three point rating scale because the real 
losers will already have been weeded out by admin, but it's a bit too late 
for that)

And for those who suggested Rad, Lame, Killer, etc., here are some of you 
ideas:

1) Ghatiya 2) Ganda 3) Thheek 4) achha 5) Bahut achha

Know what that means? (it's in Hindi) Now you get my point ;)

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From joshua at alphashop.net  Fri Nov 16 13:25:47 2001
From: joshua at alphashop.net (Joshua Olson)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:25:47 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011117004451.029a8008@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <075e01c16ed6$20665a80$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com>

What about a slight twist:

1) Poor 2) Average 3) Good 4) Excellent 5) Perfect

I remember once someone saying:

"Perfection is the goal.  Excellence will be tolerated."

I'd expect a 5 article to have no comments other than "bravo", "way to go",
and "for those interested, here are some other links ..."

:)

-joshua


----- Original Message -----
From: "Madhu Menon" 
Subject: Re: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?


: At 09:04 AM 11/16/2001, the great Rudy spake thus:
:
: > >      1 (bad)    2 (poor)    3 (good)    4 (excellent)
5(outstanding)
:
: How about:
:
: 1) Poor 2) Average 3) Good 4) Very good 5) Excellent




From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 13:27:45 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:27:45 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011117004451.029a8008@203.197.12.4>
References: <20011116033429.C88129C4@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <200111161927.fAGJRijE007421@leo.evolt.org>

> From: Madhu Menon 
[...] 
> And for those who suggested Rad, Lame, Killer, etc., here are some of
> you ideas:
> 
> 1) Ghatiya 2) Ganda 3) Thheek 4) achha 5) Bahut achha
> 
> Know what that means? (it's in Hindi) Now you get my point ;)

how about:

1) dude?
2) dude...
3) dude.
4) dude!
5) Dude!!




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 13:28:55 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:28:55 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <200111161857.fAGIvHjE006277@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

aardvark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> > http://test.evolt.org/article/wuss/20/15177/
> >
> > ummmm, pretty overlayed graphics, yummm.
>
> NN4.08
> http://roselli.org/xfer/evolt_author.gif
>
> erm, seems ok...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

this is what i'm seeing about every 2 out of 3 reloads of the page.
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/screen_caps/nn4_author_block.gif

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > incorrect.  using , at least with some of the
> > stylesheets, is definitely a couple of pixels smaller.
>
> so, not incorrect, just incorrect with some CSS files?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

well, yes.  it's a slightly smaller size when viewed with some of the
stylesheets.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> so, we're going to stuff style-only HTML into our page
> strictly to adjust the size of the text, then?
>
> yes, that's a weighted question... i don't see how
>  offers any structure or semantic meaning to
> the content within...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i know.  i'm stuck with the same feeling about it.  however, i think it
definitely looks better at the size it's rendered with  tags wrapped
around it when viewed in those stylesheets where the .side classed text is
closer to the .main classed text size (granite.css for example).  so, trick
questions aside, knowing this goal and trying to not continue adding things
to the stylesheets, what would you suggest?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > inconsistencies where?  the author block?  or the
> > content flowed to the left of the author block?
>
> in the HTML...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

uh, ok.  you can thank people using different tab stop settings than the
requested standard when editing the article display file.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i prefer how it looks un-ed...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

since i don't care either way i'll pull all the s out of there,
except for the first line "By authorname blah", unless you object to that
too.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> but even if i didn't, i'd rather see more CSS than HTML
> that offers no valid structure/semantic value...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

fair enough.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> no text disappearance... but still, yeah, way wonky...
> http://roselli.org/xfer/evolt_layout.gif
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

try it with granite.css.  it's got a line-height specified for .content and
you'll see what i mean.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> is he in the concrete business?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

no, he's in the mortiary supply business.  he's got bodybags specially
designed by him and manufactured for him that he says are "so strong a live
body couldn't get out of."  oh boy.  that gives me the creeps just thinking
about it.

later,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com  Fri Nov 16 13:31:18 2001
From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:31:18 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F4@arnold.bedrock.com>

 
| 1) dude?
| 2) dude...
| 3) dude.
| 4) dude!
| 5) Dude!!

Either we are architecturally limited to 5 choices, or the 6 choice
suggestion was a (1) or...





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov 16 13:33:13 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:33:13 2001
Subject: WHOA .. slow down - content class ..... :(   was Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <00bd01c16ed6$2a8e2560$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Hey Guys!!!

/me puts bat down before she does something not nice.

You guys are confusing the heck out of me .. and everyone else reading the
messages on this list.

Back up a couple of steps.

Has it occurred to ANYONE that the granite.css file is WRONG?

Guess what .. it should NOT have a class for "content".  The fonts should
NOT be different than those in isaac.css.

Who was it that said the class for content was removed, cos the line height
was messing other things up?  And who was it that told me to delete it
within the HTML?  (in fact, someone else will be deleting it, since I don't
have access).

What's the problem with using the Sidebar class for the new author block?
Again, forget that GRANITE.CSS file is wrong.

No more classes, no 's etc.  Use the sidebar class and be done with
it.

All the CSS files MUST match up classes, elements, ID's with what's in
isaac.css.

Reign in it please .. focus, concentrate.  Let's not go adding stuff and
messing things up.  I'm trying to work on the CSS files .. but, damnit, you
guys keep changing what you're saying, making more suggestions, creating new
apps. without regard to what CSS file you SHOULD be working with, etc.

Getting rather annoyed here ... slow down, think first, then proceed.  Right
now t.e.o. is a jumbled mess .. how the heck are we going to roll all the
bug fixes and approved changes to w.e.o.  Let's get what's going on now
fixed, working, error free.


Michele






From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 13:43:46 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:43:46 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF48B4F.2040205@members.evolt.org>


.jeff wrote:

> dan,
> 
> 
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>From: Daniel J. Cody
>>
>>pukes in moz 0.9.5 [...]
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> i don't see any problems here in nn6.1 (rev 0.9.2)


http://members.evolt.org/djc/temp/wacklayout.png


>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>and the layout is wacky in lynx
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> actually, i think the layout is surprisingly good in lynx.


the table with the user info is split in two for me..





From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com  Fri Nov 16 13:44:40 2001
From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:44:40 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F5@arnold.bedrock.com>

| So, yeah, w.e.o's fine now. But, like I said, the purpose of 
| UEUE is to
| "hook in" other sites without creating duplicates of things like the
| member table, etc.

Hey,

Is there anyway to look at m.e.o as an application, so that application.cfm
would run before accessing member pages?

That way, UEUE could be sent the authentication cookies and authenticate and
authorize the user, but not pass on this information to the contained or
requesting site.

Also, I took the cookie hash/last date accessed/system key idea and ran with
it. I created a table to rotate the system key, the date that key started
and date ended use. The cookies set on the user's machine are the key hashed
username and lastaccess. When a user comes in the lastaccess cookie is
retrieved and checked to see if the system key has changed since then. If
so, the key corresponding to that date is looked up in the key table and
that key is used to unhash the username. The cookies are reset for the new
information and the user is authenticated. Works pretty well... but I don't
have to worry about "rogue" servers like m.e.o is potentially. 

Perhaps, also, as Mark Nickel was talking about, there is the possibility of
writing an apache module to handle this, so the cookies don't ever get to
the application server, but can authenticate through the web server...





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 13:46:29 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:46:29 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF48BF2.7080407@members.evolt.org>

ok.. but relating to how many articles show up under articles written.

we should include other categorys in the count, as it has nothing to do 
with ratings

.djc.

.jeff wrote:

> dan,
> 
> 
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>From: Daniel J. Cody
>>
>>
>>>no argument there.  however, faq are meta-data (ie,
>>>data about the site) and therefore subject to
>>>different rules.
>>>
>>what rules would those be?
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> we (this list) already decided that certain categories of articles would be
> restricted from appearing in the "highest rated articles" box in the
> sidebar.  when implementing the view articles by rating at codefest, matt
> and i followed this same rule.  when i helped implement the "other articles
> by this author" initially it included ratings as well and is still ranked by
> ratings like the two things i just mentioned.  for consistency, i think it
> should have its category of content restricted as well like the two i just
> mentioned.  now, if rudy comes up with an idea of how to do it and have
> articles in these categories returned last, then i'm cool with that.





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 13:47:29 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:47:29 2001
Subject: WHOA .. slow down - content class ..... :(   was Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <00bd01c16ed6$2a8e2560$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> /me puts bat down before she does something not nice.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

/me gives michele a tranquilizer before she hurts herself or others

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> You guys are confusing the heck out of me ..
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

fair enough.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> and everyone else reading the messages on this list.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

whoa girl.  let "everyone else" speak up for themselves please.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Has it occurred to ANYONE that the granite.css file is
> WRONG?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

maybe and maybe not.

> Guess what .. it should NOT have a class for "content".
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><


><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> The fonts should NOT be different than those in
> isaac.css.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

oh really?  why not?

specifically what about the fonts is different?  family?  size?  color?  why
can't these be different.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Who was it that said the class for content was removed,
> cos the line height was messing other things up?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i simply commented it out on w.e.o in isaac.css because it was causing some
of the issues we're seeing now.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> And who was it that told me to delete it within the
> HTML?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

since working in the source code the past couple of days, i think we should
think alittle more about the ramifications of simply removing all instances
of that class.  it's used all over the place.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> What's the problem with using the Sidebar class for the
> new author block?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

look at the source.  we've been using the .sidebar since practically the
beginning.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> All the CSS files MUST match up classes, elements, ID's
> with what's in isaac.css.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

agreed.  the values of said classes, elements, AND IDs don't have to match
though.  and, they have to match up with classes that are also commented out
until we determine that deleting those classes from the stylesheet and all
instances of its use in the html is the best course of action.

nobody is trying to create a jumbled mess or add a ton of new things.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Reign in it please .. focus, concentrate.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

trust that we are.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> I'm trying to work on the CSS files .. but, damnit, you
> guys keep changing what you're saying, making more
> suggestions, creating new apps. without regard to what
> CSS file you SHOULD be working with, etc.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

we're not proposing any changes yet.  we're just working out the details of
how to accomplish it.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Right now t.e.o. is a jumbled mess .. how the heck are
> we going to roll all the bug fixes and approved changes
> to w.e.o.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

how is it done now?  dan?  do we just roll the entire codebase from t.e.o.
up or just select templates?

just relax,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Fri Nov 16 13:54:28 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:54:28 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: <01f601c16ec4$32ae1780$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, Michele Foster had something to say about Re: [thesite] comment...

>
>I +1 what dan's saying ... I'd rather the New Comments and the Comment
>search be available to anyone visiting, regardless of log-in status.
>
>Jeeze, even I used to visit the site a few times a week before I signed up
>for an account 10 months after I found evolt.  I use the New Comments every
>day now .. (of course, I can see them ;)) .. but its great to see where the
>new content is.  There are articles I've read and re-read cos of the New
>Comments feature.  Wasn't it Martin that pointed out earlier this week, he
>added a comment to an old article of Wolf's .. which I'd never stumbled
>across .. but did when I say there was a comment on it .. Nice Article, btw.

Comment search and "New Comments" are two different things. We CAN'T
list New Comments to someone who isn't logged in. How would when know when
they last logged in if we don't know who they are?

Just wanted to clear that up.

Thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 13:57:02 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 13:57:02 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF48B4F.2040205@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> > i don't see any problems here in nn6.1 (rev 0.9.2)
>
> http://members.evolt.org/djc/temp/wacklayout.png
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

hmm, does it do that for all the articles or just this one?  it looks like
it might be more of an issue with something in the article than the author
block.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > actually, i think the layout is surprisingly good in
> > lynx.
>
> the table with the user info is split in two for me..
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

split in two?  got a screenshot?  this is what it looks like in lynx to me:

http://members.evolt.org/jeff/screen_caps/lynx_author_block.gif

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Fri Nov 16 14:05:07 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:05:07 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <3BF47E25.8090607@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 15, Daniel J. Cody had something to say about Re: [thesite] [bug]...

>
>.jeff wrote:
>
>> dan,
>> 
>> 
>>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>>From: Daniel J. Cody
>>>
>>>i think we can all agree that FAQ articles for example
>>>are 'high quality'..
>>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>>
>> 
>> no argument there.  however, faq are meta-data (ie, data about the site) and
>> therefore subject to different rules.
>
>
>what rules would those be?

How many times do you rate a news article? An FAQ article?

Do you agree that a rating for someone who is just passing along news
isn't as meaningful as a rating for someone who's developed a CF script to
handle undeliverable mail?

The ratings mean different things in these categories. In news, it can
really only mean "nice writing skillz" or maybe even "I like Macromedia,
so I'm giving this Macromedia article a high rating" type thing.

If we're going to list 5 articles, I want them to be the top 5. Would you
agree? Now, if your FAQ article is somehow rated 5 of 10 ratings, it's
going to knock your other articles, where the ratings mean more, out of
the standings.

Taking out those categories, or listing them last, nullifies the ratings.

Otherwise, it would seem quite hypocritical to continue to exclude those
categories from the "Highest Rated Articles" list.

Thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov 16 14:06:45 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:06:45 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
References: 
Message-ID: <00e301c16eda$da3de5a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Matty,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Warden, Matt" 

| >Jeeze, even I used to visit the site a few times a week before I signed
up
| >for an account 10 months after I found evolt.  I use the New Comments
every
| >day now .. (of course, I can see them ;)) .. but its great to see where
the
| >new content is.  There are articles I've read and re-read cos of the New
| >Comments feature.  Wasn't it Martin that pointed out earlier this week,
he
| >added a comment to an old article of Wolf's .. which I'd never stumbled
| >across .. but did when I say there was a comment on it .. Nice Article,
btw.
|
| Comment search and "New Comments" are two different things. We CAN'T
| list New Comments to someone who isn't logged in. How would when know when
| they last logged in if we don't know who they are?
|
| Just wanted to clear that up.



Ahhhh ok .... duh!!!!

Now I see what you're saying .... I was thinking "Most Recent Comments" ....
which I think would have value too for everyone .. as far as disseminating
(sp?) most recent info on the site.

Oh well ..

Mich





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:08:59 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:08:59 2001
Subject: WHOA .. slow down - content class ..... :(   was Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF49137.1040208@members.evolt.org>


.jeff wrote:


>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>Reign in it please .. focus, concentrate.
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> trust that we are.


category editing capability
performance related fixes(the 'if anyones bored' thread)
voting application into CMS
combing code to find inefficiencies(blockfactor thread)
subsite authentication(UEUE)
stylesheets - whats good/bad right/wrong
user selectable stylesheets(100% working ?)
editing member attributes(big)
image upload feature

those are just things i pulled off the top of my head fromn the last month.. a 

number of things are being dropped when a new topic comes up lately. 
from my perspective, which is a bit distanced lately..


>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>Right now t.e.o. is a jumbled mess .. how the heck are
>>we going to roll all the bug fixes and approved changes
>>to w.e.o.
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> how is it done now?  dan?  do we just roll the entire codebase from t.e.o.
> up or just select templates?

all at once




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Fri Nov 16 14:10:55 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:10:55 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F5@arnold.bedrock.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com had something to say about RE:...

>| So, yeah, w.e.o's fine now. But, like I said, the purpose of 
>| UEUE is to
>| "hook in" other sites without creating duplicates of things like the
>| member table, etc.
>
>Hey,
>
>Is there anyway to look at m.e.o as an application, so that application.cfm
>would run before accessing member pages?
>
>That way, UEUE could be sent the authentication cookies and authenticate and
>authorize the user, but not pass on this information to the contained or
>requesting site.

how does that help:

http://members.evolt.org/cookie/steelorz/h4x0rz.php

???

And I don't know how application.cfm would supress cookie info even if a
.cfm file was called... but maybe that's because I know less that jack
about CF...


thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:11:11 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:11:11 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF491BC.7060706@members.evolt.org>

i'm not talking about ratings or anything to do with top 5.. just want 
to make sure that if a person writes 1 job article, 2 suggestions, 1 faq 
article and 5 commentary pieces that they're credited for 9 articles, 
not just 5.

Warden, Matt wrote:

> On Nov 15, Daniel J. Cody had something to say about Re: [thesite] [bug]...
> 
> 
>>.jeff wrote:
>>
>>
>>>dan,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>>>From: Daniel J. Cody
>>>>
>>>>i think we can all agree that FAQ articles for example
>>>>are 'high quality'..
>>>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>>>
>>>no argument there.  however, faq are meta-data (ie, data about the site) and
>>>therefore subject to different rules.
>>>
>>
>>what rules would those be?
>>
> 
> How many times do you rate a news article? An FAQ article?
> 
> Do you agree that a rating for someone who is just passing along news
> isn't as meaningful as a rating for someone who's developed a CF script to
> handle undeliverable mail?
> 
> The ratings mean different things in these categories. In news, it can
> really only mean "nice writing skillz" or maybe even "I like Macromedia,
> so I'm giving this Macromedia article a high rating" type thing.
> 
> If we're going to list 5 articles, I want them to be the top 5. Would you
> agree? Now, if your FAQ article is somehow rated 5 of 10 ratings, it's
> going to knock your other articles, where the ratings mean more, out of
> the standings.
> 
> Taking out those categories, or listing them last, nullifies the ratings.
> 
> Otherwise, it would seem quite hypocritical to continue to exclude those
> categories from the "Highest Rated Articles" list.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> --
> mattwarden
> mattwarden.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For unsubscribe, archive, and options, go to:
> http://lists.evolt.org/mailman/listinfo/thesite
> 





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:19:18 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:19:18 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <3BF491BC.7060706@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> i'm not talking about ratings or anything to do with
> top 5.. just want to make sure that if a person writes
> 1 job article, 2 suggestions, 1 faq article and 5
> commentary pieces that they're credited for 9 articles,
> not just 5.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

don't worry, they are.  their cubes and article count are not limited.  it's
simply a count of how many records contain their userid as the userid of the
content.

on the other hand, the "other articles by this author" block on the article
page is intended to be a cream of the crop section, hence only listing 5 and
hence not listing articles that are less likely to contain quality material.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com  Fri Nov 16 14:19:43 2001
From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:19:43 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F6@arnold.bedrock.com>

| how does that help:
| 
| http://members.evolt.org/cookie/steelorz/h4x0rz.php

Because, if m.e.o. was an application, which basically then redired to the
member site, then application.cfm would come first. That is why I asked if
it was feasible to think about it this way...

| And I don't know how application.cfm would supress cookie 
| info even if a
| .cfm file was called... 

[in application.cfm]
...




...

When cf does a cflocation, the cookies aren't resent from the browser. I
think it is an HTTP thing.

| but maybe that's because I know less that jack
| about CF...

Well, I hope that I'm contributing more positively than jack...






From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov 16 14:20:03 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:20:03 2001
Subject: WHOA .. slow down - content class ..... :(   was Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <000401c16edc$b4f1f1e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Jeff,

----- Original Message -----
From: ".jeff" 



|
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
| > Who was it that said the class for content was removed,
| > cos the line height was messing other things up?
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
|
| i simply commented it out on w.e.o in isaac.css because it was causing
some
| of the issues we're seeing now.
|
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
| > And who was it that told me to delete it within the
| > HTML?
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
|
| since working in the source code the past couple of days, i think we
should
| think alittle more about the ramifications of simply removing all
instances
| of that class.  it's used all over the place.


This doesn't make sense at all ... if the class is commented out in the
working CSS file (which it is), then its not being used in the HTML file, at
all.  The reference can exist, but its not working, nor should it be.  IOW,
wherever there are references to class="content" the text is not being
styled with that class, as it in essence does not exist.  So, the text is
being styled by a higher up class.

So, you can decide .. if you want to CREATE a new class for content,
elsewise we just delete the references which are irrelevant.  No sense in
referring to someting which isn't in existance.


Michele





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:21:30 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:21:30 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF49425.3070206@members.evolt.org>

ok, thats all i was asking for.. thanks for clearing it up

.djc.

.jeff wrote:

> dan,
> 
> 
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>From: Daniel J. Cody
>>
>>i'm not talking about ratings or anything to do with
>>top 5.. just want to make sure that if a person writes
>>1 job article, 2 suggestions, 1 faq article and 5
>>commentary pieces that they're credited for 9 articles,
>>not just 5.
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> 
> don't worry, they are.  their cubes and article count are not limited.  it's
> simply a count of how many records contain their userid as the userid of the
> content.





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:22:43 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:22:43 2001
Subject: WHOA .. slow down - content class ..... :(   was Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF49137.1040208@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> category editing capability
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

this is going to be more difficult than i had imagined because of how the
site is structured.  trust that i'm looking into it though.  it's a
nice-to-have, not a must-have though.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> performance related fixes(the 'if anyones bored' thread)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

addressed already.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> voting application into CMS
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

not yet specced out.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> combing code to find inefficiencies(blockfactor thread)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

addressed already (see above)

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> subsite authentication(UEUE)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

separate task.  not at all related to t.e.o. codebase being moved to
production.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> stylesheets - whats good/bad right/wrong
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

thing we're nearing consensus on this.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> user selectable stylesheets(100% working ?)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

as far as i can tell.  i still think there are lots of things about the
initial process that need to be fixed though.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> editing member attributes(big)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

still not specced.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> image upload feature
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

image upload for what?  articles?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > how is it done now?  dan?  do we just roll the entire
> > codebase from t.e.o. up or just select templates?
>
> all at once
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

ok, thanks.

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:24:26 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:24:26 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F5@arnold.bedrock.com>
Message-ID: 

rory,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com
>
> Perhaps, also, as Mark Nickel was talking about, there
> is the possibility of writing an apache module to handle
> this, so the cookies don't ever get to the application
> server, but can authenticate through the web server...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

this doesn't solve the problem of a malicious m.e.o. account holder reading
the cookies with javascript.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From djc at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:25:24 2001
From: djc at members.evolt.org (Daniel J. Cody)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:25:24 2001
Subject: WHOA .. slow down - content class ..... :(   was Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <3BF49511.9070008@members.evolt.org>

for people to upload images of themselves for iSac's new user box

.jeff wrote:


> as far as i can tell.  i still think there are lots of things about the
> initial process that need to be fixed though.

> image upload for what?  articles?





From r937 at interlog.com  Fri Nov 16 14:31:39 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:31:39 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
Message-ID: <01c16edc$945f0440$de51149a@rudy>

>rudy, you got any ideas about this?

i could fib and say that i only saw this because i set up a filter on my
name, but in fact i have been reading everything that's been whizzing by
here the last day or so...

... but not following much of it

for what it's worth, i don't like the author's pic and article stats
available in the article, simply because it's not relevant to the
article -- all that stuff should be available on the author's page, which
you get to by clicking on the name or userid link, just like we have now

firstname lastname (userid)  is fine, though, i mean the
addition of the real name on the article byline

cubes are (still) good

as for the question, which i think was prompted by michele's comments about
wanting credit for her faq articles, what was the question?  does it have
to do with how to query the categories?

sorry if i'm not on top of it, but there's been a shitload of testing of
new features in the last day or so, and i thought i'd just wait until the
results were presented to a larger group like theforum for evaluation...


rudenheimer




From r937 at interlog.com  Fri Nov 16 14:31:44 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:31:44 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
Message-ID: <01c16edd$b3d82800$de51149a@rudy>

> how about:
> 
>  1) dude?
>  2) dude...
>  3) dude.
>  4) dude!
>  5) Dude!!

heh

reminds me of the smiley scale on my old tilde account --

  http://www.interlog.com/~r937/contact.html

   yes!! 
   yes 
   um... 
   no 
   no!! 





From r937 at interlog.com  Fri Nov 16 14:31:48 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:31:48 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
Message-ID: <01c16edd$4ebfb960$de51149a@rudy>

> i don't see how  offers any structure
> or semantic meaning to the content within...

oh shit, not this argument again

look, if 
 has semantic meaning, then so does 

sure, i hear you saying, but there's a difference between a heading and
plain text

well, yes and no. maybe so, i don't know

but if  has semantic meaning, then so does 

 is plain text, it's just styled differently, and please don't try to
argue your way out of that one

and anyhow, i have two final points

 ~ if  validates xhtml strict, wtf is wrong with using it

 ~ would you rather have  or 


rudy





From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Fri Nov 16 14:32:48 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:32:48 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F6@arnold.bedrock.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com had something to say about RE:...

>| how does that help:
>| 
>| http://members.evolt.org/cookie/steelorz/h4x0rz.php
>
>Because, if m.e.o. was an application, which basically then redired to the
>member site, then application.cfm would come first. That is why I asked if
>it was feasible to think about it this way...

Oh, i didn't realize you were talking about a redirect.

>| And I don't know how application.cfm would supress cookie 
>| info even if a
>| .cfm file was called... 
>
>[in application.cfm]
>...
>lastaccess=cookie.lastaccess>
>
>
>
>...
>
>When cf does a cflocation, the cookies aren't resent from the browser. I

that's because you're deleting the cookie value. they may still be sent,
but they have no value.

which will probably cause more problems upon the next request.

thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com





From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com  Fri Nov 16 14:38:15 2001
From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:38:15 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F8@arnold.bedrock.com>

| Oh, i didn't realize you were talking about a redirect.

Neither did I. I am really not sure how the different servers run... do they
all have separate copies of CF on, for instance? Are they clustered?

| that's because you're deleting the cookie value. they may 
| still be sent,
| but they have no value.

No, deleting the cookie value would mean setting the expiration date to
"NOW". This would require a page view before a redirect.

Redirecting causes cookies not to be sent, so one would set the internal
application (CF) cookie collection variable (named, creatively, "cookie") to
something blank, but this wouldn't affect the browser cookie.

Of course, this assumes that redirect works in the framework of x.e.o.





From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Fri Nov 16 14:39:06 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:39:06 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <01c16edd$4ebfb960$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, rudy had something to say about Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org...

>> i don't see how  offers any structure
>> or semantic meaning to the content within...
>
>oh shit, not this argument again
>
>look, if 
 has semantic meaning, then so does 
>
>sure, i hear you saying, but there's a difference between a heading and
>plain text

yeah, i don't think that's a strong argument.

>well, yes and no. maybe so, i don't know
>
>but if  has semantic meaning, then so does 

Bah.

I'd rather say:

if  has semantic meaning, so does 

 is all about styling, whether it's how it's shown or how the
speech reader speaks is.

similarly with , i think.

i'd never use  because it reminds me too much of when I was leaning
HTML by looking at the source of shit I made in AOLPress (yes, it's ok to
laugh... I am too).

personally, i think the tag should be , not .

heh.


--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com






From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:41:18 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:41:18 2001
Subject: WHOA .. slow down - content class ..... :(   was Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <000401c16edc$b4f1f1e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> This doesn't make sense at all ... if the class is
> commented out in the working CSS file (which it is),
> then its not being used in the HTML file, at all.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

the entire class is commented out because the only thing it was setting was
line-height.  however, if there were other things like font-size, color,
background-image, etc., then only the line-height part would have been
commented out.

does that make sense?

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:42:40 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:42:40 2001
Subject: WHOA .. slow down - content class ..... :(   was Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF49511.9070008@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> > image upload for what?  articles?
>
> for people to upload images of themselves for iSac's
> new user box
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

as soon as we're in agreement on it then i'll take the time to build it.  i
don't think we've reached a consensus yet though.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Fri Nov 16 14:44:18 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:44:18 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F8@arnold.bedrock.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com had something to say about RE:...

>| Oh, i didn't realize you were talking about a redirect.
>
>Neither did I. I am really not sure how the different servers run... do they
>all have separate copies of CF on, for instance? 

No. Unless you wanna donate teh $$$$$$$$$$...   ;-)

>| that's because you're deleting the cookie value. they may 
>| still be sent,
>| but they have no value.
>
>No, deleting the cookie value would mean setting the expiration date to
>"NOW". This would require a page view before a redirect.

Er... no. that's deleting the *cookie*, not the *cookie value*

>Redirecting causes cookies not to be sent, so one would set the internal
>application (CF) cookie collection variable (named, creatively, "cookie") to
>something blank, but this wouldn't affect the browser cookie.

Er.. it would have to, unless it's a server-side redirect (which I really
don't think it is). If it's a 301/302 (never remember which) client-side
redirect, then it's basically saying "somewhere else" and if there's a
Location header (which there will be here) then it's saying "it's
somewhere else and if you want it, make another request for the file named
in the Location header.

So, the reason there's no cookie value with the next request would be
because you've just set it to an empty string during the last request.


Thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com







From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:47:08 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:47:08 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <01c16edc$945f0440$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: 

rudy,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: rudy
>
> as for the question, which i think was prompted by
> michele's comments about wanting credit for her faq
> articles, what was the question?  does it have to do
> with how to query the categories?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

how to take this query, which keeps articles in certain categories from
being returned:

  SELECT content.contentid
       , content.contentname
       , content.synopsis
       , content.ratings
       , content.rating
       , content.replies
       , content.categoryid
       , content.datemod
       , (SELECT category
            FROM categorys
           WHERE categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid
         ) AS category
    FROM content
   WHERE content.userid = #Val(getarticle.userid)#
     AND content.categoryid NOT IN (1, 23, 26, 9741)
     AND content.contentid <> #Val(url.aid)#
     AND content.signoff = 1
   ORDER BY content.rating DESC
       , content.ratings DESC
       , content.datemod ASC

and change it so it will return articles in all categories, but ordered such
that articles with a categoryid of 1, 23, 26, or 9741 appear last in the
results?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:51:18 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:51:18 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

matt,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Warden, Matt
>
> How many times do you rate a news article? An FAQ
> article?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

not often, but what do you call this?

http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/1/4166/

that's a news article that would dominate the top 5 highest rated articles
if we allowed news articles in this listing.

here's another one
http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/1/5692/

this problem is compounded on the article page where we're trying to grab
the "top 5"  articles by the same author (other articles by this author
block) since we can't limit the query to articles with more than 5 ratings
as that would result in most authors not having any articles listed in the
"top 5".  consequently, we end up with the top 5 being articles with a
single rating of 5.

restricting the results to only certain categories is an attempt to get the
better articles out in front of the viewer.

(after re-reading your response, it seems we're in agreement, so i'm only
leaving the bit above in for those who might need alittle more detail or a
different perspective)

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Do you agree that a rating for someone who is just
> passing along news isn't as meaningful as a rating
> for someone who's developed a CF script to handle
> undeliverable mail?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yes.  a news article ratings, to me, is useless especially in those cases
where the news article is nothing more than a copy-n-paste of a pr piece
somewhere else or a link and a sentence or two about it.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> In news, it can really only mean "nice writing skillz"
> or maybe even "I like Macromedia, so I'm giving this
> Macromedia article a high rating" type thing.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

or it could mean, hey, i think you're a fab author for posting this bit of
news.  more importantly though, news articles are usually quite
time-sensitive as to their usefulness and therefore shouldn't appear in a
time-less listing of top articles.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Otherwise, it would seem quite hypocritical to continue
> to exclude those categories from the "Highest Rated
> Articles" list.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

+100

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/






From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com  Fri Nov 16 14:55:45 2001
From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:55:45 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F9@arnold.bedrock.com>

| No. Unless you wanna donate teh $$$$$$$$$$...   ;-)

How's $10 / mo.? 

| Er.. it would have to, unless it's a server-side redirect 
| (which I really
| don't think it is). If it's a 301/302 (never remember which) 
| client-side
| redirect, then it's basically saying "somewhere else" and if there's a
| Location header (which there will be here) then it's saying "it's
| somewhere else and if you want it, make another request for 
| the file named
| in the Location header.

Would it need to be a client redir?

I know that cflocation doesn't send the headers to the client, so I think it
is a server redir... anyone can tell for sure?

From:
http://www.allaire.com/Handlers/index.cfm?ID=1471&Method=Full&Cache=

When using CFCOOKIE in a ColdFusion application, there several things to
keep in mind: 
....
When a CFLOCATION follows a CFCOOKIE, the cookie will not be set. 

This explains everything, imho:
http://www.cfobjects.com/forums/handler.cfm?event=threadSelected&msg_id=308

| So, the reason there's no cookie value with the next request would be
| because you've just set it to an empty string during the last request.
| 

I disagree, the CF cookies construct is server only. It would be like
passing form data to the server and mangling it server-side. The browser
doesn't know anything about the data since HTTP hasn't done a round-trip.

To delete a cookie from the browser you need the following:

[per CF documentation]

Syntax


NAME
Required. The name of the cookie variable.

VALUE
Optional. The value assigned to the cookie variable.

EXPIRES
Optional. Schedules the expiration of a cookie variable. Can be specified as
a date (as in, 10/09/97), number of days (as in, 10, 100), NOW, or NEVER.
Using NOW effectively deletes the cookie from the client's browser.

Do we still disagree?





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:55:58 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:55:58 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <3BF48BF2.7080407@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> ok.. but relating to how many articles show up under
> articles written.
>
> we should include other categorys in the count, as it
> has nothing to do with ratings
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

it does if the articles being selected are done so by their rating.  if not,
then how would you suggest trying to retrieve the most likely best 5
articles by an author?

maybe we don't want best 5.  maybe most recent 5 would be better.  aren't we
then perpetuating our current situation where older articles get less
notice?  (yes, i know that basing the select on rating does this too).
maybe we should have top 5 based on the number of comments.  help out here.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 14:59:08 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 14:59:08 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F9@arnold.bedrock.com>
Message-ID: 

rory,

so you're suggesting that we delete cookies when a request is made to
m.e.o.?  so we blast away the user's session state for other *.e.o. sites
simply because they visit m.e.o.?  seems problematic to me.

fwiw, there isn't any redirects taking place on m.e.o.  if i put an
application.cfm in my public_html folder then it will run and not the one in
the directory up.  what's to keep me from using all .html files and reading
the cookies with javascript?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Fri Nov 16 15:00:45 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Nov 16 15:00:45 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2F9@arnold.bedrock.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com had something to say about RE:...

>| So, the reason there's no cookie value with the next request would be
>| because you've just set it to an empty string during the last request.
>| 
>
>I disagree, the CF cookies construct is server only. It would be like
>passing form data to the server and mangling it server-side. The browser
>doesn't know anything about the data since HTTP hasn't done a round-trip.

???

How is that construct... er... constructed? From the cookies sent by the
client, right? If those cookies don't change, then each request will have
the same cookie collection.

or am I missing something?

>To delete a cookie from the browser you need the following:
>
>[per CF documentation]
>
>Syntax
>    VALUE="text"
>    EXPIRES="period"
>    SECURE="Yes/No"
>    PATH="urls"
>    DOMAIN=".domain">
>
>NAME
>Required. The name of the cookie variable.
>
>VALUE
>Optional. The value assigned to the cookie variable.
>
>EXPIRES
>Optional. Schedules the expiration of a cookie variable. Can be specified as
>a date (as in, 10/09/97), number of days (as in, 10, 100), NOW, or NEVER.
>Using NOW effectively deletes the cookie from the client's browser.
>
>Do we still disagree?

Considering I don't see your point in the above documentation, yes.

I believe you're talking about removing a cookie from the browser. That's
not what you're doing. You're just deleting it's value.

Ok, maybe that's what is tripping you up. You're not technically
"deleting" anything. You're overwriting the value with an empty
string. But, basically, you're deleting the value.

thanks,


--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From r937 at interlog.com  Fri Nov 16 15:07:20 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Fri Nov 16 15:07:20 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
Message-ID: <01c16ee3$0f4fbcc0$de51149a@rudy>

> how to take this query, which keeps articles in certain categories
> from being returned:....
>
> [ le grand sql snippage ]
>
> ... and change it so it will return articles in all categories,
> but ordered such that articles with a categoryid of 1, 23, 26,
> or 9741 appear last in the results?

piece of cake with a UNION ALL

   select articles
         where category NOT IN (special)
 union all
   select articles
         where category IN (special)

now the question is how to sort them, and below i have introduced a special
sort column called foo

  SELECT 1 as foo
       , content.contentid
       , content.contentname
       , content.synopsis
       , content.ratings
       , content.rating
       , content.replies
       , content.categoryid
       , content.datemod
       , (SELECT category
            FROM categorys
           WHERE categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid
         ) AS category
    FROM content
   WHERE content.userid = #Val(getarticle.userid)#
     AND content.categoryid NOT IN (1, 23, 26, 9741)
     AND content.contentid <> #Val(url.aid)#
     AND content.signoff = 1
 UNION ALL
  SELECT 2
       , content.contentid
       , content.contentname
       , content.synopsis
       , content.ratings
       , content.rating
       , content.replies
       , content.categoryid
       , content.datemod
       , (SELECT category
            FROM categorys
           WHERE categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid
         )
    FROM content
   WHERE content.userid = #Val(getarticle.userid)#
     AND content.categoryid  IN (1, 23, 26, 9741)
     AND content.contentid <> #Val(url.aid)#
     AND content.signoff = 1
   ORDER BY foo ASC
       , content.rating DESC
       , content.ratings DESC
       , content.datemod ASC

thus the articles in normal categories come ahead of all articles in
special categories

of course, other sort sequences can be devised...

note the ORDER BY applies to the combined result set, not just the second
subselect as it might appear from a cursory glance at the syntax (common
sql newbie misunderstanding)

also note i don't use column aliases in the 2nd subselect, this is standard
sql coding practice from long ago, not sure if it's still de rigeuer, but i
believe the aliases from the first subselect always apply...

rudy




From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com  Fri Nov 16 15:09:36 2001
From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com)
Date: Fri Nov 16 15:09:36 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2FA@arnold.bedrock.com>

| ???
| 
| How is that construct... er... constructed? From the cookies 
| sent by the
| client, right? If those cookies don't change, then each 
| request will have
| the same cookie collection.
| 
| or am I missing something?

In CF, the form data is available in the #Form# collection, the URL
querystring in the #URL# collection, and the cookies in the #Cookie#
collection. This is just a structure of strings keyed by cookie name. You
can do what ever you want to the data on the server, but the values won't be
sent back to the client. These collections are server-only. One has to do a
cfcookie to get data back to the client in the form of a cookie. To handle
.jeff's inquiry, no, I don't plan on erasing the cookie or the value. Here:

1) User enters m.e.o.
2) _Something_ reads the cookie.
3) The server does a server side redirect, so no more cookie headers are
sent by a request.
4) The member's site is now being viewed by the browser.

The only problem with this is, as .jeff reminded, javascript harvesting.

 



From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Fri Nov 16 15:22:00 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Fri Nov 16 15:22:00 2001
Subject: WHOA .. slow down - content class ..... :(   was Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
References: 
Message-ID: <003f01c16ee5$5be0a660$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: ".jeff" 

| michele,
|
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
| > From: Michele Foster
| >
| > This doesn't make sense at all ... if the class is
| > commented out in the working CSS file (which it is),
| > then its not being used in the HTML file, at all.
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
|
| the entire class is commented out because the only thing it was setting
was
| line-height.  however, if there were other things like font-size, color,
| background-image, etc., then only the line-height part would have been
| commented out.
|
| does that make sense?
|


Absolutely.

So, are we in agreement that all references to class="content" within the
HTML are to be deleted from the HTML templates?

Or should we just leave them in, and realize they aren't doing anything?

btw, can get you the new author block to a point that I can d/l the source
and modify the css files using both a front page and an article view as
samples?

Do you want to pick an article that pushes the CSS to the limit ?  Need
something with code blocks .. and maybe captions ?


Michele





From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Fri Nov 16 15:22:23 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Nov 16 15:22:23 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
In-Reply-To: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2FA@arnold.bedrock.com>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com had something to say about RE:...

>.jeff's inquiry, no, I don't plan on erasing the cookie or the value. Here:
>
>1) User enters m.e.o.
>2) _Something_ reads the cookie.
>3) The server does a server side redirect, so no more cookie headers are
>sent by a request.

"CFLOCATION redirects the browser to a specified web resource"
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:4csNXiadoyw:www.infoboard.com/packagedoc/cfdocs41/CFML_Language_Reference/2_ColdFusion_Tags/lr2_052.htm+cflocation&hl=en

sounds like a client-side redirect to me.

So, how is the browser not going to send the cookie headers on the second
request? As you say, there is no writing to the cookie itself before
redirection.

>4) The member's site is now being viewed by the browser.

Thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 15:23:03 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 15:23:03 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <01c16ee3$0f4fbcc0$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: 

rudy,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: rudy
>
> piece of cake with a UNION ALL
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

oracle doesn't like something about it:

Oracle Error Code = 904
ORA-00904: invalid column name

i even tried aliasing the additional pieces in the second query just to make
sure -- no dice.

i tried each select separately to make sure it wasn't an issue with the
special sort column and they worked just fine.

any ideas?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From r937 at interlog.com  Fri Nov 16 15:31:37 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Fri Nov 16 15:31:37 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
Message-ID: <01c16ee6$7abb1920$de51149a@rudy>

>Oracle Error Code = 904
>ORA-00904: invalid column name

heh

well, it's partly helpful


> i tried each select separately to make sure it wasn't an issue
> with the special sort column and they worked just fine.

then it's gotta be the columns in the ORDER BY

try   ORDER BY 1, 2 desc, 3 desc, 4

this uses ordinal column numbers, which i *think* is phased out in sql3,
but should still be backwards compatile (and our version of oracle is sql2,
i think)

if that don't work, take the table qualifiers off the ORDER BY column names

rudy




From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com  Fri Nov 16 15:41:11 2001
From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com)
Date: Fri Nov 16 15:41:11 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2FC@arnold.bedrock.com>

| The only problem with this is, as .jeff reminded, javascript 
| harvesting.

Well, one way, and hey, it's just an idea, is to do content filtering on the
JS being sent from the webserver.

If it has js for cookie stuff, deny that page from being sent... maybe until
it is "registered" or "signed" by evolt admin...





From Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com  Fri Nov 16 15:43:50 2001
From: Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com (Rory.Plaire at wahchang.com)
Date: Fri Nov 16 15:43:50 2001
Subject: [thesite] Back to the Drawing board for UEUE?
Message-ID: <41C0B6AB2A57D3119ED800A0C9EA3920034AD2FD@arnold.bedrock.com>

| sounds like a client-side redirect to me.
| So, how is the browser not going to send the cookie headers 
| on the second
| request? As you say, there is no writing to the cookie itself before
| redirection.

Ok. It looks like a 302 to me, too. But, since HTTP 1.1 doesn't specify
whether or which headers should be resent
(http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec10.html#sec10.3.3) it seems
like the way CF treats this is ambiguous, or... I just don't see the
pattern. For instance, I don't get my cookie construct repopulated _after_ a
cflocation. I was hoping to leverage this, but it looks too soft.


More and more, it looks like the only way to close this hole is to do
content checking on the webserver... before it hits CF.





From webguru at vsnl.net  Fri Nov 16 15:48:08 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Fri Nov 16 15:48:08 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this
  Author
In-Reply-To: <20011116213740.583DAC11B@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011117031546.029a57b8@203.197.12.4>

At 03:07 AM 11/17/2001, the great thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org spake thus:
>for what it's worth, i don't like the author's pic and article stats
>available in the article, simply because it's not relevant to the
>article -- all that stuff should be available on the author's page, which
>you get to by clicking on the name or userid link, just like we have now

+1 million.

I've just been skimming thesite, but when I looked at Jeff's example 
(http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/1/5692/), all I saw was a mass of 
numbers. It looked more like census data than anything meaningful. All 
those numbers shouting out at me, and I could see no overwhelming value to 
them. For example, "comments received: 243". This is relatively meaningless 
without a proper benchmark or context. Dan's been around a long time. His 
figures are impressive. If some new writer writes his first article 
tomorrow, his "numbers" will look pathetic compared to Dan. Does that mean 
his article was useless? Or that he's a poor writer?

Numbers, ratings, averages, etc. are meaningless (from an information 
design point of view) without a meaningful way to interpret and compare them.

Just my 2 paisa.

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 15:53:28 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 15:53:28 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <01c16ee6$7abb1920$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: 

rudy,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: rudy
>
> > i tried each select separately to make sure it wasn't
> > an issue with the special sort column and they worked
> > just fine.
>
> then it's gotta be the columns in the ORDER BY
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

except they didn't throw an error when the UNION ALL and one of the other
queries was commented out.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> try   ORDER BY 1, 2 desc, 3 desc, 4
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

this worked, but it didn't give me the results in the order i wanted them.
where are 3 and 4 defined?

i'd like them by foo, content.rating DESC, content.ratings DESC,
content.datemod ASC.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> if that don't work, take the table qualifiers off the
> ORDER BY column names
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

now this worked.

next question.  what if i wanted to sort those records to the top that had
more than 5 ratings, but only if the author had at least 5 articles that had
at least 5 ratings.  (i'm trying my best to mimic the highest ranked
articles selection process, but at the author level.  honest, this really
does have a purpose)

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 16:25:27 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 16:25:27 2001
Subject: WHOA .. slow down - content class ..... :(   was Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <003f01c16ee5$5be0a660$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> | the entire class is commented out because the only
> | thing it was setting was line-height.  however, if
> | there were other things like font-size, color,
> | background-image, etc., then only the line-height
> | part would have been commented out.
> |
> | does that make sense?
>
> Absolutely.
>
> So, are we in agreement that all references to
> class="content" within the HTML are to be deleted from
> the HTML templates?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

no, i guess you don't understand what i'm saying.  let me rephrase.  what
you say if td.content looked like this:

td.content {
  /* line-height: 130%; */
}

or like this:

td.content {
  /* line-height: 130%; */
  background-color: #ffffcc;
}

surely you wouldn't go deleting all instances of 'class="content"' from the
html then, right?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Or should we just leave them in, and realize they aren't
> doing anything?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

... realize they're not doing anything in the current stylesheets, but may
possibly do something if someone were to specify other elements for the
td.content class.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> btw, can get you the new author block to a point that I
> can d/l the source and modify the css files using both
> a front page and an article view as samples?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

it's ready to go as far as i'm concerned.  adrian, do you have any other
issues with it?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Do you want to pick an article that pushes the CSS to
> the limit ?  Need something with code blocks .. and
> maybe captions ?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

hmmm, don't know that there's an article with both.  i've been using the
following articles:

code blocks
http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/17/16286/

images & captions
http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/20/15177/

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 16:31:08 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 16:31:08 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this  Author
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011117031546.029a57b8@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: 

madhu,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Madhu Menon
>
> > for what it's worth, i don't like the author's pic and
> > article stats available in the article, simply because
> > it's not relevant to the article -- all that stuff
> > should be available on the author's page, which you get
> > to by clicking on the name or userid link, just like we
> > have now
>
> +1 million.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

there's nothing that says we can't add this information there as well.
that's something i've wanted to do for a long time, but haven't come up with
a sensible way to present the information.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> I've just been skimming thesite, but when I looked at
> Jeff's example, all I saw was a mass of numbers.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

try this one instead then and see if it looks better.

http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/17/16286/

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 16:43:32 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 16:43:32 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <074501c16ed3$11445410$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com>
Message-ID: 

joshua,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Joshua Olson
>
> Would a dark colored (single pixel) border around this
> feature (way cool, btw) be appropriate?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

are you talking about the new author table that's floating at the top of the
article?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From evolt at spinhead.com  Fri Nov 16 16:46:12 2001
From: evolt at spinhead.com (spinhead)
Date: Fri Nov 16 16:46:12 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011117004451.029a8008@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <003501c16ef0$d088b0b0$080a000a@HEISENBERG>

1) Ghatiya
very bad

 2) Ganda
bad

3) Thheek
OK

4) achha
good

 5) Bahut achha
Very good.

That was too easy. Gimme a tough one.

spinhead


----- Original Message -----
From: "Madhu Menon" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?


[ . . . ]
>
> And for those who suggested Rad, Lame, Killer, etc., here are some of you
> ideas:
>
> 1) Ghatiya 2) Ganda 3) Thheek 4) achha 5) Bahut achha
>
> Know what that means? (it's in Hindi) Now you get my point ;)
>
> Madhu
>
> <<<   *   >>>
> Madhu Menon
> User Experience Consultant
> e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net
>
>




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 17:01:12 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 17:01:12 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: <3BF463D1.7020503@members.evolt.org>
Message-ID: 

dan,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Daniel J. Cody
>
> > so take the 5 seconds it takes to login
>
> regardless, if what i'm looking for only takes me 10
> seconds to find..
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

and if logging in only takes you 5 seconds, you're still at a meager 15
seconds.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> i know its hard to believe, but people dont' always(want
> to) log in.  public places, at work, whatever.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

you're missing the point though.  non-logged-in users or non-registered
users get to access and search our content with no hitches.  what do we
offer them as a hook to register or login?  they can submit articles?  they
can comment on articles?  they can search for users?  is that enough?  i
don't think so.  i think they should get the ability to refine their search
to just comments.

what does being at work or public terminal have to do with not wanting to
login?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > and they can continue to search for articles.  they
> > just can't search comments.  why don't they register
> > on the site?
>
> *shrug* they don't plan on submitting articles or
> comments. they just want to read articles.. why would
> they register?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><


  to search comments


you bring up a good question though -- why would they register?  if the
hooks to register aren't enough now, then what's it going to take?  what do
we need to do to get them involved being just reading articles?  i think
you'll find that the answer is not giving more to non-logged-in/registered
users.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> lets not forget that the majority of people visiting our
> website are just here to read content.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i think that's an assumption without the details to back it up.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> we have enough stale accounts in teh DB as is me
> thinks..
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

which goes back to the hooks to register.  apparently we're not offering
enough to the registered users to want to return on a regular basis and
log-in.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Fri Nov 16 17:14:40 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Nov 16 17:14:40 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this  Author
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. -...

>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>> I've just been skimming thesite, but when I looked at
>> Jeff's example, all I saw was a mass of numbers.
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
>try this one instead then and see if it looks better.
>
>http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/17/16286/

what if i have a code block or image in that horizontal spot in my
article?

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Fri Nov 16 17:20:21 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Fri Nov 16 17:20:21 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] comment searches

>you bring up a good question though -- why would they register?  if the
>hooks to register aren't enough now, then what's it going to take?  what do
>we need to do to get them involved being just reading articles?  i think
>you'll find that the answer is not giving more to non-logged-in/registered
>users.

I guess we could require registration for the ability to view any part of
the site.

Really, i think it goes to user experience. they can search for articles,
so no user would assume that they woudl be able to suddenly be able to
search comments IF they register. I think we'd have a better chance of
them being impressed by the totally-public tools on the site that they'd
want to join our community.

i mean, even if they DO somehow know that they can search comments if they
register, who would register just to search comments?

I think people register for community reasons, not tool reasons. If that
makes sense.

i think we should restrict registration-required stuff to things that
absolutely must be registration-required -- like comments, articles,
etc. which need that information in order to work.

you don't need a username in order to search articles.

just my two cents.

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Fri Nov 16 17:26:17 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Fri Nov 16 17:26:17 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this  Author
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

matt,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Warden, Matt
> 
> > http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/17/16286/
> 
> what if i have a code block or image in that horizontal
> spot in my article?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

asked and answered.

http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-November/1564357.html
http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-November/1564358.html
http://lists.evolt.org/thesitearchive/2001-November/1564365.html

enjoy,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 19:28:21 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 19:28:21 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <01c16edd$4ebfb960$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <3BF5774D.23668.E55DA1E0@localhost>

> From: "rudy" 
>
> > i don't see how  offers any structure
> > or semantic meaning to the content within...
> 
> oh shit, not this argument again

sorry, dude, but i'm gonna make people justify all code...

> look, if 
 has semantic meaning, then so does 


 has structural meaning, not semantic meaning...

> sure, i hear you saying, but there's a difference between a heading
> and plain text

yes, which is why headings are used to denote the structure of a 
page...

> well, yes and no. maybe so, i don't know

there is... i could paste it in if you like...

> but if  has semantic meaning, then so does 

 tells the UA that it is a special chunk of text that should be 
treated as computer code... it has very specific semantic 
meaning... it's not a style thing, it actually *tells* the UA what the 
content consists of...

>  is plain text, it's just styled differently, and please don't
> try to argue your way out of that one

i just did... please try to prove to me that  is strictly 
styling...

but wait, i think i'll get it from the horse's mouth...

------------------------
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1
9.2 Structured text
9.2.1 Phrase elements: EM, STRONG, DFN, CODE, SAMP, KBD, 
VAR, CITE, ABBR, and ACRONYM
[...]
Phrase elements add structural information to text fragments. The 
usual meanings of phrase elements are following:
[...]
CODE: 
Designates a fragment of computer code.
------------------------
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#h-15.2.1
15.2.1 Font style elements: the TT, I, B, BIG, SMALL, STRIKE, S, 
and U elements
[...]
Rendering of font style elements depends on the user agent. The 
following is an informative description only.
[...]
SMALL: Renders text in a "small" font.
------------------------

you'll note the W3C refers to  as style... and  as 
structural information...

you'll also note  and  are considered style, while  
and  are considered structural...

> and anyhow, i have two final points
> 
>  ~ if  validates xhtml strict, wtf is wrong with using it

 only offers style, not any semantics... it doesn't tell me 
what kind of text is within... it only tells the UA to make it 
smaller... it doesn't indicate anything to alternative browsers... in 
short, it does *nothing* but make text smaller...

and how do you propose we do that in the CSS?  as a %?  as hard 
px?  we *should* define that tag if we're gonna use it...

don't use the XHTML spec here, either, the site is coded to the 
HTML 4.01 spec... and yes, it is still a valid element... but it has no 
purpose in this site...

>  ~ would you rather have  or 

neither.  they're both inappropriate...

but i said that already...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 19:37:23 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 19:37:23 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200111161857.fAGIvHjE006277@leo.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <3BF5796E.22312.E565F362@localhost>

> From: ".jeff" 
> >
> > NN4.08
> > http://roselli.org/xfer/evolt_author.gif
> >
> > erm, seems ok...
> 
> this is what i'm seeing about every 2 out of 3 reloads of the page.
> http://members.evolt.org/jeff/screen_caps/nn4_author_block.gif

*yo* mama.

> > so, we're going to stuff style-only HTML into our page
> > strictly to adjust the size of the text, then?
> >
> > yes, that's a weighted question... i don't see how
> >  offers any structure or semantic meaning to
> > the content within...
> 
> i know.  i'm stuck with the same feeling about it.  however, i think
> it definitely looks better at the size it's rendered with  tags
> wrapped around it when viewed in those stylesheets where the .side
> classed text is closer to the .main classed text size (granite.css for
> example).  so, trick questions aside, knowing this goal and trying to
> not continue adding things to the stylesheets, what would you suggest?

part of that concern is predicated on how *other* CSS files handle 
it... that's not how we've done it in that past... *anyone* can make 
the side text larger than the body copy, so do we worry about 
those scenarios?

in short, design for the isaac.css file...

which, IMO, means we don't need  at all...

> > > inconsistencies where?  the author block?  or the
> > > content flowed to the left of the author block?
> >
> > in the HTML...
> 
> uh, ok.  you can thank people using different tab stop settings than
> the requested standard when editing the article display file.

thank you.

how's that?

> since i don't care either way i'll pull all the s out of
> there, except for the first line "By authorname blah", unless you
> object to that too.

nah, that's fine... it acts as a de facto header... not an ideal use of 
, but it is acceptable...

> > no text disappearance... but still, yeah, way wonky...
> > http://roselli.org/xfer/evolt_layout.gif
> 
> try it with granite.css.  it's got a line-height specified for
> .content and you'll see what i mean.

yeah, we really need to gut .content if all it was was line-height... i 
think that's one CSS attribute that we might even wanna consider 
verboten...

then again, verboten in the isaac.css i guess is good enough... 
after all, i just argued for building this for the core style... CSS 
authors will always find new ways to surprise us, and i'd rather not 
spend the rest of time tracking down new bugs from documented 
issues...

> no, he's in the mortiary supply business.  he's got bodybags specially
> designed by him and manufactured for him that he says are "so strong a
> live body couldn't get out of."  oh boy.  that gives me the creeps
> just thinking about it.

remember my friend in texas?

he's got a duffle bag with a Coronor patch on it... he uses it when 
he flies anywhere...

nobody touches that bag... even when it's checked, people move 
away from it on the conveyer...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 19:59:11 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 19:59:11 2001
Subject: WHOA .. slow down - content class ..... :(   was Re: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <003f01c16ee5$5be0a660$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <3BF57E8B.14547.E579EC66@localhost>

> From: ".jeff" 
[...]
> > Or should we just leave them in, and realize they aren't
> > doing anything?
> 
> ... realize they're not doing anything in the current stylesheets, but
> may possibly do something if someone were to specify other elements
> for the td.content class.

as it is, the content class does nothing, at least not in isaac.css...

if it gets left in, though, i intend to create my own CSS with line-
height in there just to make the text easier for me to read...

if it gets removed, so be it...

and CSS authors can play with it, too, by leaving it there...

i leave it to everyone else to determine the value of that...

> > btw, can get you the new author block to a point that I
> > can d/l the source and modify the css files using both
> > a front page and an article view as samples?
> 
> it's ready to go as far as i'm concerned.  adrian, do you have any
> other issues with it?

erm, no...  but what's there to modify for the author block?  or am i 
missing something again?




From r937 at interlog.com  Fri Nov 16 20:14:32 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Fri Nov 16 20:14:32 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
Message-ID: <01c16f0d$a0ba33a0$de51149a@rudy>

9.2.1 Phrase elements: EM, STRONG, DFN, CODE, SAMP, KBD,
VAR, CITE, ABBR, and ACRONYM

15.2.1 Font style elements: the TT, I, B, BIG, SMALL, STRIKE, S,
and U elements



good rebuttal, adrian

i am convinced

i guess i should've done the research myself

you can add "bonehead" to that long list of names i'll answer to

i'm gonna keep right on using  on my own site ('cause it validates,
and it's bloody convenient) but i do concede the point about structure and
style

thank you for setting me straight and not tearing a complete strip off me
(only a partial one)


i like matt's idea, a tag that structurally indicates that its content is
less important (and therefore user agents would be right in rendering it in
smaller font, or quieter voice, or whatever)

like, um,  or  or 


rudy






From roselli at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 16 20:26:04 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Fri Nov 16 20:26:04 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <01c16f0d$a0ba33a0$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <3BF584D8.10097.E59287F7@localhost>

> From: "rudy" 
[...]
> i like matt's idea, a tag that structurally indicates that its content
> is less important (and therefore user agents would be right in
> rendering it in smaller font, or quieter voice, or whatever)
> 
> like, um,  or  or 

yeah, i see some value to that, too...

hmmm... how to do that in XML?  and use aural CSS?

mine might be ...

or ...

that latter one we could style pink, because nobody would see it 
anyway... it is, after all, somebody else's problem...




From bruce at heerssen.com  Fri Nov 16 22:13:11 2001
From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen)
Date: Fri Nov 16 22:13:11 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <01111622143700.01731@localhost.localdomain>

On Nov 16, .jeff and some other folks had something to say about: 
RE: [thesite] comment searches

Please allow me to chime in here. Rather than offer a point by point rebuttal 
to the various comments, I'll just spit it all out. It's a bit long, so 
please feel free to skip it if you don't have the time.

I think that any barrier to using a certain functionality of the the site 
(w.e.o specifically) is a huge mistake. The fact is, a whole lot of people do 
not want to register with the site. Nobody can change that, period. Not 
offering regular users the same search functionality as registered users 
discriminates against the former. At best, this will not affect evolt's 
image, at worst, it could do some damage if word got out. On the other hand, 
if we allow regular users this search functionality, it should enhance 
evolt's image because regular users would see added functionality that other 
sites don't have.

Here at evolt, most of us like to say we believe in following good usability 
practices. One of the major no-no's in usability theory is requiring 
registration for areas of a site that do not actually *need* to require 
registration. If anyone disputes this, I'll dig up some links to support my 
statement. In this light, I fail to see how requiring registration for any 
sort of search of public areas in the site can offer any added value to our 
visitors, and by extension, to evolt itself.

As for the hooks to registration, I agree that there should be some, but 
surely offering free web space is enough? (that's what hooked me) If you want 
new hooks for registering, how about a code library or something? IMO, the 
ability to search comments is not much of a hook. I don't mean to disparage 
the idea of searching comments. Quite the contrary, I think it adds 
significant value, just not as a hook for registering. 

my $.02

-Bruce

P.S. - Jeff, you posted a great comment on javascript today - the one 
explaining how variables work inside functions. I thought it was very clear 
and concise. How about encapsulating it in a tip sometime? Or maybe even an 
article?



From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 00:35:51 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 00:35:51 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: <01111622143700.01731@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

bruce,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Bruce Heerssen
>
> I think that any barrier to using a certain
> functionality of the the site (w.e.o specifically) is a
> huge mistake.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

in your opinion, where do you draw the line between what requires
registration and what doesn't?  is the line drawn by those things that
actually require user information to work properly?  or is the line
somewhere else?  if it's somewhere else, what criteria is used to determine
where that line is drawn?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> The fact is, a whole lot of people do not want to
> register with the site.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

this begs the question why.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Nobody can change that, period.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

not completely, but surely we can lessen the number of people that feel this
way.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Not offering regular users the same search functionality
> as registered users discriminates against the former.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

it would be discriminatory if the users that were left out were left out
because of something they couldn't change.  however, 2 minutes of their time
and that barrier is no longer there.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> At best, this will not affect evolt's image, at worst,
> it could do some damage if word got out.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i see it exactly the opposite.  if i use a site for a while without
registering then find out all the additional functionality i get for
registering, i think to myself, "why didn't i do this sooner?"

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> On the other hand, if we allow regular users this search
> functionality, it should enhance evolt's image because
> regular users would see added functionality that other
> sites don't have.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i'm sure it would, but at what expense?  if we give everything away for
free, what do we have left to give the non-registered users a reason to
register?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> In this light, I fail to see how requiring registration
> for any sort of search of public areas in the site can
> offer any added value to our visitors, and by extension,
> to evolt itself.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

how about protecting the information of our existing member base?

by your theory, the user search should be available to the casual user.
what's to keep that casual user from harvesting all the information?  sure,
they could create an account and then do it, but that barrier seems to stop
most.

do you want the casual site user to be able to easily find your user record
in the system?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> As for the hooks to registration, I agree that there
> should be some, but surely offering free web space is
> enough?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

m.e.o. isn't the core piece of evolt.org.  the centerpiece is w.e.o.  the
hooks for registration to w.e.o. need to exist within w.e.o.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> If you want new hooks for registering, how about a code
> library or something?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

already created and recreated ad nauseam everywhere else and publicly
available.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> IMO, the ability to search comments is not much of a
> hook.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

not as a core piece, no.  i wouldn't expect it be seen that way.  i see the
ability to post comments as the key hook with article submission, user
search, and comment search following it.  i'd like to work on additional
hooks, but i don't know what they are yet.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> P.S. - Jeff, you posted a great comment on javascript
> today - the one explaining how variables work inside
> functions. I thought it was very clear and concise. How
> about encapsulating it in a tip sometime? Or maybe even
> an article?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah, i've been asked to do that offlist by a couple other list members and
thought when i was writing it that it'd work well for that.  i'll do that as
soon as i have time to put some polish on it along with a few helpful
illustrations.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From webguru at vsnl.net  Sat Nov 17 01:30:28 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sat Nov 17 01:30:28 2001
Subject: Member stats (was: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - blah blah)
In-Reply-To: <20011117020745.02EA8C1B2@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011117123232.02d58660@203.197.12.4>

At 07:37 AM 11/17/2001, the great .jeff spake thus:

>there's nothing that says we can't add this information there as well.
>that's something i've wanted to do for a long time, but haven't come up with
>a sensible way to present the information.

That's my point. Don't add it "there as well"; add it *only* there. Is 
there really any compelling reason that it *needs* to be on the article 
page? Is this information *critical*? I think not. IMO, the only things 
that might make a case for being there are "Articles written" and "average 
rating"


>try this one instead then and see if it looks better.
>
>http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/17/16286/

Nope. Still a whole bunch of numbers. I'll be frank. When I looked at them 
for the first time (and even now), I sat there for a minute or two trying 
to make sense of WTF was being conveyed to me. Call it poor information 
design if you will, but it takes a while to digest those numbers and make 
*sense* out of them. "23 comments" - what exactly does it tell me? That 
Jeff doesn't comment much? That's he just joined evolt and that explains 
only 23 comments? Is this necessarily worse than Dan's 86 comments? What if 
Dan's comments are mostly "Oh yeah! Great article" (Dan, I'm using this as 
an example only, nothing personal) and Jeff's comment's are higher quality? 
Do the number of comments indicate their quality? If not, what is it trying 
to indicate? If it doesn't indicate *anything*, what's the purpose?
It might make *some* sense if combined with your joining date: 04/15/1999. 
Then I might be able to tell how often you comment. But even that is 
largely inconsequential to me, the reader of the article. It's just a bunch 
of stats and don't tell me much about your knowledge of a subject.

"Avg. rating given: 4.42" - so Jeff generally rates articles high? Or does 
he only rate articles if they're high quality? (Besides, I'm not sure I 
*want* people to know what I rate articles on an average, but that's a 
different discussion)

OK, let's have our steel cage match.
Compare Jeff Howden (http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/17/16286/)  to 
Madhu Menon (http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/4090/4299/index.html)

Jeff has received 37 comments on 11 articles. I have received 17 comments 
for 3 articles. Comment for comment, I come out on top with 5.67 comments 
per article over your 3.36 comments per article. Does that make my articles 
better? Yes? But your average article rating is 4.5 compared to my 4.07. 
Huh? So comments are not an accurate measurement of anything? If it's not a 
measure of anything, why have them? I can extend the same argument for most 
of the numbers on the article page.

In short, what *information* is the reader getting from seeing this *data*? 
(The difference: processed data presented in a meaningful format becomes 
information). Look at things from a user-centred perspective.

I compare this to some clueless PC magazines (and there are a fair few of 
them) telling me that the XYZ processor returned a score of 34.8 on their 
benchmark. Is that good? Bad? 34.8 compared to what? Does it make a 
difference?

"23 comments" - good or bad?

Let's not have an orgasm over cool SQL queries. Presenting data is 
pointless. It must make sense to me.

We need to go back and read Tufte's "Visual display of quantitative 
information", and perhaps "How to lie with statistics".

Madhu
PS: This would be a good discussion for theforum. Shall I move it there?

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From webguru at vsnl.net  Sat Nov 17 01:37:08 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sat Nov 17 01:37:08 2001
Subject: [thesite] Rating Articles .. Whatcha think ?
In-Reply-To: <20011117020745.02EA8C1B2@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011117130622.02d738f0@203.197.12.4>

At 07:37 AM 11/17/2001, the great thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org spake thus:
>  5) Bahut achha
>Very good.
>
>That was too easy. Gimme a tough one.
>
>spinhead

Well Joel, most people could've predicted that from context and a bit of 
logic :)

However, given the time you took to send that mail, and your accurate 
translation (most people wouldn't think that I'd put "very bad" there), I 
assume you've asked an Indian friend to translate for you. Correct?

Elementary.
(No, Sherlock Holmes *never* said, "Elementary, my dear Watson" in any of 
his cases).

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From webguru at vsnl.net  Sat Nov 17 01:56:01 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sat Nov 17 01:56:01 2001
Subject: [thesite] More about ratings
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011117132248.00af0ec8@203.197.12.4>

You thought I was done ranting? Guess again.

Out of my three article, I find it nutty that a short news story about 
NetSol selling user information 
(http://test.evolt.org/article/site/1/5824/index.html) - and a story where 
I added very little value - has got the highest rating of all my articles. 
And I did considerably more work on the other two.

Someone explain that to me.

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 02:16:11 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 02:16:11 2001
Subject: Member stats (was: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - blah blah)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011117123232.02d58660@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: 

madhu,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Madhu Menon
>
> That's my point. Don't add it "there as well"; add it
> *only* there. Is there really any compelling reason that
> it *needs* to be on the article page?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

the answer to that question would depend on how many people actually follow
the links to view the author's user page.  if they don't this would be a way
to get some more information out about the author and perhaps coax the
visitor into making that extra click.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Is this information *critical*? I think not.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

no, certainly not critical.  does every piece of information displayed have
to be critical or can we just put up some fun stats for the hell of it?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> IMO, the only things that might make a case for being
> there are "Articles written" and "average rating"
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

you need total ratings received to give some relevance to the average
rating.  other wise it's "average out of what?".

other nice things are user since and last login (which i've added).  these
give some immediate indication as to the level of participation (combined
with the article count and ratings to some small degree)

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> >http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/17/16286/
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

try it again then.  i've removed a number of the fun stats and left just the
basics as i see it.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Do the number of comments indicate their quality?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

no, they indicate level of participation.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Let's not have an orgasm over cool SQL queries.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

but ... oh all right.  ;p

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> PS: This would be a good discussion for theforum. Shall
> I move it there?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

already doing so.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 02:22:06 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 02:22:06 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: <3BF5796E.22312.E565F362@localhost>
Message-ID: 

aardvark,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: aardvark
>
> > this is what i'm seeing about every 2 out of 3 reloads
> > of the page.
> > http://members.evolt.org/jeff/screen_caps/nn4_author_block.gif
>
> *yo* mama.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah.  that was the better of the two results i'd get.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> part of that concern is predicated on how *other* CSS
> files handle it...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah, good point.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> that's not how we've done it in that past... *anyone*
> can make the side text larger than the body copy, so
> do we worry about those scenarios?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

maybe, maybe not.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> in short, design for the isaac.css file...
>
> which, IMO, means we don't need  at all...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

maybe.  it almost sounds like maybe we should style the author block
separately.



><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > since i don't care either way i'll pull all the
> > s out of there, except for the first line
> > "By authorname blah", unless you object to that too.
>
> nah, that's fine... it acts as a de facto header... not
> an ideal use of , but it is acceptable...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i just noticed it's used that way in the sidebar as well.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> remember my friend in texas?
>
> he's got a duffle bag with a Coronor patch on it... he
> uses it when he flies anywhere...
>
> nobody touches that bag... even when it's checked,
> people move away from it on the conveyer...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

which friend?  the guy or the girl?  nevermind, it doesn't matter.  it's
freaky either way.  i doubt they have problems with dishonest baggage
handlers opening it up either.  i bet the drug dogs love it though.

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at alphashop.net  Sat Nov 17 03:39:12 2001
From: jeff at alphashop.net (Jeff Howden)
Date: Sat Nov 17 03:39:12 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
Message-ID: 

hey all,

just an update to let you all know what i've been up to the past couple of
days in my spare time on t.e.o.

1)  fixed the homepage table structure so the
    cell classed pageTitle2 now spans all the
    way across to the single pixel border like
    it does on all the rest of the pages on
    thesite.

2)  finalized work on the comments search in
    effort to make the search interface and
    search mechanism more inline with how the
    article search works.

3)  classed any  tags with a class of
    .pageTitle1 i found in cells classed
    .pageTitle1.  same for pageTitle2

4)  finished up the formatting of the author
    block

5)  dropped a comments search box in the
    sidebar for all users (yes, i concede to
    conventional wisdom)

6)  updated "other articles by this author"
    query and display

7)  tried updating revived article section
    reducing it to one query (yeah, you
    heard right), but wasn't as successful
    as i had hoped

    rudy, can you tell me why this silly
    query always returns the same number
    for the rank alias?  is it because the
    subselect is run first and its result
    is tacked onto each row the main query
    returns?

    SELECT content.contentid
         , content.keyphrase
         , content.contentname
         , content.synopsis
         , content.datemod
         , content.replies
         , content.rating
         , content.ratings
         , users.userid
         , users.who
         , categorys.category
         , categorys.categoryid
         , (SELECT rand.random * 100000000
              FROM dual
           ) AS rank
      FROM content
         , users
         , categorys
     WHERE categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid
       AND content.userid = users.userid
       AND content.signoff = 1
       AND content.categoryid NOT IN (1, 23, 26, 9741)
       AND content.datemod < '#DateFormat(DateAdd("yyyy" , -1, Now()))#'
     ORDER BY rank

i think that's all for now,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From r937 at interlog.com  Sat Nov 17 07:24:40 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sat Nov 17 07:24:40 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
Message-ID: <01c16f6b$9dd2b460$de51149a@rudy>

>    rudy, can you tell me why this silly
>    query always returns the same number
>    for the rank alias?  is it because the
>    subselect is run first and its result
>    is tacked onto each row the main query
>    returns?
>
>         , (SELECT rand.random * 100000000
>              FROM dual
>           ) AS rank

yup, that would explain it

i haven't used oracle's random number generator but your interpretation of
it being run only once and the result used on each row of the outer query
sounds like the answer

rudy






From roselli at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 17 08:32:28 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Sat Nov 17 08:32:28 2001
Subject: [thesite] More about ratings
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011117132248.00af0ec8@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <3BF62F19.19055.E82B9799@localhost>

> From: Madhu Menon 
[...]
> Out of my three article, I find it nutty that a short news story about
> NetSol selling user information
> (http://test.evolt.org/article/site/1/5824/index.html) - and a story
> where I added very little value - has got the highest rating of all my
> articles. And I did considerably more work on the other two.
> 
> Someone explain that to me.

yeah, sucks, doesn't it?

some of my favorite articles don't have as many comments or 
ratings as some of my crap articles...

that's just how it is... it's possible some people don't rate them 
because they don't get them or don't think they are qualified to, and 
it's possible some people don't comment because they don't 
disagree...

who knows... but that has nothing to with rating stats...




From roselli at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 17 08:34:47 2001
From: roselli at earthlink.net (aardvark)
Date: Sat Nov 17 08:34:47 2001
Subject: [thesite] test.evolt.org change fyi
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3BF5796E.22312.E565F362@localhost>
Message-ID: <3BF62FA5.2514.E82DB854@localhost>

> From: ".jeff" 
[...]
> > that's not how we've done it in that past... *anyone*
> > can make the side text larger than the body copy, so
> > do we worry about those scenarios?
> 
> maybe, maybe not.

er... cop-out.

> > in short, design for the isaac.css file...
> >
> > which, IMO, means we don't need  at all...
> 
> maybe.  it almost sounds like maybe we should style the author block
> separately.
> 
> 

ugh.

i still think we need to decide if we design for *all* *possible* CSS 
files, or if we design for the default evolt.org style... personally, i 
think the latter...

> which friend?  the guy or the girl?  nevermind, it doesn't matter. 
> it's freaky either way.  i doubt they have problems with dishonest
> baggage handlers opening it up either.  i bet the drug dogs love it
> though.

the guy... although we found the girl can fit in it...




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Sat Nov 17 11:21:08 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Sat Nov 17 11:21:08 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 16, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] comment searches

>do you want the casual site user to be able to easily find your user record
>in the system?

Sure do.

And, couldn't they just click the author link in my articles?

Thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Sat Nov 17 11:24:40 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Sat Nov 17 11:24:40 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 17, Jeff Howden had something to say about [thesite] t.e.o. updates

>5)  dropped a comments search box in the
>    sidebar for all users

Thanks, bro.

... and for all the other hard work you've been doing.

r0ck.

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From bruce at heerssen.com  Sat Nov 17 11:56:56 2001
From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen)
Date: Sat Nov 17 11:56:56 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <01111711582800.02403@localhost.localdomain>

My major objection to this whole issue is that I don't think we should erect 
barriers to finding information on the site. That just flies in the face of 
promoting an open atmosphere for learning and contributing. For the blow by 
blow, read on...


On Saturday 17 November 2001 01:39, .jeff wrote:

> in your opinion, where do you draw the line between what requires
> registration and what doesn't?  is the line drawn by those things that
> actually require user information to work properly?  or is the line
> somewhere else?  if it's somewhere else, what criteria is used to determine
> where that line is drawn?
>

I think the line is drawn at the point where we need some culpability. Like 
access to the m.e.o server, or list access, or creating articles or comments.

> > The fact is, a whole lot of people do not want to
> > register with the site.
>
> this begs the question why.
>

Perhaps, but the reasons are known only to those that don't want to register. 
I don't think it's worth persuing. If you think it is worth persuing, perhaps 
an examination of other sites might provide some hints. Slashdot, for 
example, has a very large member base - why is that? Personally, I think it's 
because they foster an elitist atmosphere, which is attractive to a lot of 
little snots out there, but that's beside the point. I offer slashdot as an 
example only, I don't mean to suggest that we should or should not be more 
like them.

> > Nobody can change that, period.
>
> not completely, but surely we can lessen the number of people that feel
> this way.
>

You're right to an extent. We could perhaps convince a slight few who would 
not otherwise register, but the overwhelming majority still would not.

> > Not offering regular users the same search functionality
> > as registered users discriminates against the former.
>
> it would be discriminatory if the users that were left out were left out
> because of something they couldn't change.  however, 2 minutes of their
> time and that barrier is no longer there.
>

 From experience so far, two minutes of their time seems to be enough of a 
barrier. You and I may think it's not much of a barrier, but evidence 
suggests otherwise.


> > On the other hand, if we allow regular users this search
> > functionality, it should enhance evolt's image because
> > regular users would see added functionality that other
> > sites don't have.
>
> i'm sure it would, but at what expense?  if we give everything away for
> free, what do we have left to give the non-registered users a reason to
> register?
>

The ability to post articles and comments is a pretty powerful hook. However, 
this begs the question, why do we need so many people to register with w.e.o? 
When is enough, enough? We already have an impressive readership, and an 
impressive mailing list.

> > In this light, I fail to see how requiring registration
> > for any sort of search of public areas in the site can
> > offer any added value to our visitors, and by extension,
> > to evolt itself.
>
> how about protecting the information of our existing member base?
>
> by your theory, the user search should be available to the casual user.
> what's to keep that casual user from harvesting all the information?  sure,
> they could create an account and then do it, but that barrier seems to stop
> most.
>

Uhh... What user search? I've never seen such a thing, and I can't find it 
now. In any case, spammers are known to go to great lengths to get this sort 
of info. Registration doesn't seem too much of a barrier. Not requiring a 
registration for this sort of search would cut down on the number of bogus 
registrations, and we already have mechanisms in place to stop spiderts (to 
use dan's term).

> do you want the casual site user to be able to easily find your user record
> in the system?

Absolutely. That's why I put everything in plain view on my site. I don't, 
and never have had a problem with spam. In any case, I know where the delete 
button is. But I understand your point. If there really is a user search, it 
should be either 1) restricted to administrators to use, or 2) opt in 
(members are not included in it unless they specifically agree to it in their 
preferences).

> > As for the hooks to registration, I agree that there
> > should be some, but surely offering free web space is
> > enough?
>
> m.e.o. isn't the core piece of evolt.org.  the centerpiece is w.e.o.  the
> hooks for registration to w.e.o. need to exist within w.e.o.
>

In that case, we have the list sign-up, which if I'm not mistaken, signs one 
up for w.e.o also? If not, it should. And then there is the ability to add 
comments and new articles. With the coming of ueue (soon, I hope?), this hook 
only gets stronger

> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > If you want new hooks for registering, how about a code
> > library or something?
> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
> already created and recreated ad nauseam everywhere else and publicly
> available.
>

Agreed. Just an example.

> i'd like to work on additional
> hooks, but i don't know what they are yet.
>

Me neither. Perhaps this is a good topic for a questionaire on the site. When 
in doubt, ask. Anyone care to start a new thread on this? Perhaps we could 
come up with a list of questions and a database to store the answers, and a 
tool for generating the report. This should be fairly simple.

> > P.S. - Jeff, you posted a great comment on javascript
> > today - the one explaining how variables work inside
> > functions. I thought it was very clear and concise. How
> > about encapsulating it in a tip sometime? Or maybe even
> > an article?
>
> yeah, i've been asked to do that offlist by a couple other list members and
> thought when i was writing it that it'd work well for that.  i'll do that
> as soon as i have time to put some polish on it along with a few helpful
> illustrations.
>

Right on, I look forward to it.

Regards,
Bruce



From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sat Nov 17 12:25:19 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sat Nov 17 12:25:19 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] Membership Bugs/Fixes
Message-ID: <016301c16f95$d5eeece0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Dan, Jeff ..

There's still a few problems with the style sheet selection ... yet not easy
to duplicate, as the second log in seems to work fine.

I'm using a regular member id, not my admin one.  Sorry Matt, I used
juser/juser .. I forgot mine. :(

Anyway, first things first .. click on Create Membership link on the
sidebar.

The first part is "ok" .. yet if I ever wanted to change it, I've no clue
how I would get back to that .. sure, my name probably won't change .. but
my email might.  :)

Second part .... Options


  Please choose who'd you like to allow to view your member profile(0 is
anonymous, 1 is registered evolt users, 2 is registered evolt members, 3 is
evolt admin members, 4 is evolt gods)
 Anonymous
 Registered Users
 Registered Members
 evolt admins
 evolt gods


HUH??

This isn't required here ... I would suggest just deleting it (or commenting
it out) for now.  Each attribute for the members' page can have a unique
Priv Level assigned to it.  If you (I dunno who *you* is in this case ;) )
really want to keep the above .. it needs to be reworded, grammatically
correct, context added .. and I object to the option of "evolt gods" being
an option.  I can't think of any case where there needs to be a distinction
made between Admin/God privs for user information... just as confusion IMHO.

Anyway, on to the next page .. after one clicks "create" on the page above.

The stylesheet changer ... this is what needs more testing .. first log in,
when I selected "save" it didn't, changed everything to white, i.e. no
stylesheet at all.  Logged out, went back in and selected a stylesheet
again, and then it saved.  As I said above, not real easy to debug without
creating additional junk accounts.  btw, in case it mattes, the above was
done without having selected "remember me".

Maybe there's a conflict going from Page 1 to Page 2 of create membership?

Anyway, just a few things to sort out with this before we roll teo to weo.


Thanks guys,

Michele

(p.s. if someone's so inclined to find out what joethetester's password is,
that would be helpful. I can't email it to myself .. old ISP's email on that
account)






From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sat Nov 17 12:32:31 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sat Nov 17 12:32:31 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
References:  <01111711582800.02403@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <016601c16f96$da53ff40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Hey Bruce .....

In case you missed it in another post .. Jeff conceded to the overwhelming
pressure  and added the comment search option for all site visitors (i.e.
they don't need to log in to use it).  You can see the addition at
http://test.evolt.org.

As for the User's search, that's only available to those that are logged in.
On the sidebar, at the top, right under (currently) Article Search.  On the
test server, it now appears under the Comment Search.

The search User's option has been there for a while... but only to logged in
users.


HTH,

Michele


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Heerssen" 

| >
| > by your theory, the user search should be available to the casual user.
| > what's to keep that casual user from harvesting all the information?
sure,
| > they could create an account and then do it, but that barrier seems to
stop
| > most.
| >
|
| Uhh... What user search? I've never seen such a thing, and I can't find it
| now.





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sat Nov 17 12:47:19 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sat Nov 17 12:47:19 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug] Article View - Non-Logged in Status
Message-ID: <017201c16f98$eb163da0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

>From a non-logged in status .. viewing an article .. there's a problem with
the link to "register" in the Reader Comments section.

The link is pointing to:

http://test.evolt.org/user/#vars#?action=signup#and_tokens#


Takes the user to the find user's search page.

Should be, I think ... the same as the link under "Rating" on the same page,
which is:

http://test.evolt.org/user/index.html?action=signup


And, since I'm here .. let's take a look at the text for both sections:

Rating:
Would you like to rate this article? Article ratings encourage evolt
contributors to keep writing the good stuff. Help make our authors feel
wanted! You need to log in to rate an article -- you can enter your username
and password on the right -- and if you haven't yet done so, please register
your username before logging in.

Comments:
Want to join the conversation? You need to log in to post a comment! You can
enter your username and password on the right. If you aren't a member of
evolt.org yet, register and become a part of the discussion!


The Comments one is fine .. but the Rating is confusing .. let's fix that...


Would you like to rate this article? Article ratings encourage evolt
contributors to keep writing the good stuff. Help make our authors feel
wanted! You need to log in to rate an article. You can enter your username
and password on the right. If you aren't a member of evolt.org yet,
register and become a part of the community!


I'm not worried about the "!" marks ..


Random suggestions ... as I play with teo.

Michele





From bruce at heerssen.com  Sat Nov 17 13:12:32 2001
From: bruce at heerssen.com (Bruce Heerssen)
Date: Sat Nov 17 13:12:32 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: <016601c16f96$da53ff40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
References:  <01111711582800.02403@localhost.localdomain> <016601c16f96$da53ff40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <01111713135401.02403@localhost.localdomain>

On Saturday 17 November 2001 13:37, Michele Foster wrote:
> Hey Bruce .....
>
> In case you missed it in another post .. Jeff conceded to the overwhelming
> pressure  and added the comment search option for all site visitors
> (i.e. they don't need to log in to use it).  You can see the addition at
> http://test.evolt.org.
>
> As for the User's search, that's only available to those that are logged
> in. On the sidebar, at the top, right under (currently) Article Search.  On
> the test server, it now appears under the Comment Search.
>
> The search User's option has been there for a while... but only to logged
> in users.

Wow, I can't believe I missed it. Sure enough, it's there. 

-Bruce




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sat Nov 17 13:21:35 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sat Nov 17 13:21:35 2001
Subject: [thesite] [leo/teo/weo] Tip Harvester Links and Member Page
Message-ID: <018601c16f9d$b5c01ea0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Let's pick on leo for a few minutes  ;)

>From the user's page .... one finds the link to the author's tips...

My first suggestion would be to fix the user's page a bit .. and, yes, I
realize the Members' page will change greatly and is being worked on
independently.  In the interim, we need to clean up the User's Page ..
before we roll teo to weo.

The link to the author's tips is lost ... I'd suggest making this part look
the same as the articles .. in as much as adding a pagetitle2 title called
"tips" with the link to search underneath, then the articles .. just
separate the info out so one can see it better.

The Bio should go on this page too .. in the interim .. Jeff, where are you
putting the "form" for people to enter their bio?

Back to the tips search ... clicking on the link from the author's page
displays the tips on leo .. we need to make this page more user friendly I
think.  Here's my link:
http://lists.evolt.org/index.cfm/a/harvest/b/search/index.html?userid=4292

The search boxes at the top of this search result page are confusing ..
there's no author search available from here .. has one wondering where the
heck they are .. sure, those of us in the know understand what's going on
... but for the average user, wow, they've just entered an entirely
different realm. ;)

Ok, some suggestions, open for discussion of course ... things to consider
the user's experience and the technical feasibility/limitations ..

(1) On searching for tips by user, eliminate the search box from the top ..
but put a link on the side bar "search tips".

(2) Keep the search box, but add the Author criterion, so that it makes
sense .. right now, it says Results for keyword : .. note, empty keyword.

Definitely need some more suggestions here .. this leap from weo(teo) to leo
is confusing .. necessary, I understand .. but still confusing.  Perhaps the
problem is that we are forcing this results page into the tip structure, and
there's no continuity back to weo(teo).  With some creative thinking and
coding, we can make the transition less noticeable.  I'm not sure, its very
obvious (style wise) that we've moved locations .. but its not helping the
user's experience.

Suggestions folks .. please :)

Ok, back to the search results page for the tips ... a couple of points ....
if you look at my results, I have 11 tips (link above)...  at the bottom of
the first page it says:

Results 1 to 10 of 11
1 2
of 2 total pages
?? Previous 10 Articles Next 1 Article ??

What's with the "previous 10 articles" ?  and the Next 1 article ..

Both of the above should refer to "tips" not articles .. and the previous 10
isn't applicable as we're on page 1. ??

And clicking on that lonely Next 1 .. on the second page the "Next 10
articles" is displayed yet not linked... can we get rid of that?

The other thing I found confusing .. and this probably can't be dealt with
.. is that if I click on a tip to view it, the Prev Tip/Next Tip options
lead to the next tips within the entire tip collection .. not the next one
within the search criteria... i.e. the next one of my tips (since that's
where we started).  Again, I don't think this can be fixed without a lot of
work.

Ideas, suggestions .... ?

Trying to improve the user's experience .. and tying everything in together.
I'm so amazed at the progress that's been made the past several months... so
many projects/tasks all coming together at once is just f***ing awesome.  :)


Michele






From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 13:31:52 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 13:31:52 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] Membership Bugs/Fixes
In-Reply-To: <016301c16f95$d5eeece0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> The first part is "ok" .. yet if I ever wanted to change
> it, I've no clue how I would get back to that .. sure,
> my name probably won't change .. but my email might.  :)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah, that's one of the issues i was talking about before when i said it
really needs to be rewritten.  the style selection piece really needs to be
removed from the member info creation piece.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
>  Please choose who'd you like to allow to view your
>  member profile(0 is anonymous, 1 is registered evolt
>  users, 2 is registered evolt members, 3 is evolt admin
>  members, 4 is evolt gods)
>  Anonymous
>  Registered Users
>  Registered Members
>  evolt admins
>  evolt gods
> 
>
> HUH??
>
> This isn't required here ... I would suggest just
> deleting it (or commenting it out) for now.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

well, it sort of is required.  this is the setting for the member record as
a whole and if a choice isn't selected from the dropdown menu, then it's
automatically set to allow anonymous access.  this basically would restrict
your member record in searches (maybe more) to priv >= the priv you set.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> and I object to the option of "evolt gods" being an
> option.  I can't think of any case where there needs
> to be a distinction made between Admin/God privs for
> user information... just as confusion IMHO.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

it could possibly be changed to read "virtually noone".  godmins could still
see it, but it would likely only be used for administrative purposes.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> first log in, when I selected "save" it didn't, changed
> everything to white, i.e. no stylesheet at all.  Logged
> out, went back in and selected a stylesheet again, and
> then it saved.  As I said above, not real easy to debug
> without creating additional junk accounts.  btw, in case
> it mattes, the above was done without having selected
> "remember me".
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i *think* i've found what was causing that and have fixed it.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> (p.s. if someone's so inclined to find out what
>       joethetester's password is, that would be helpful.
>       I can't email it to myself .. old ISP's email on
>       that account)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

password is michele.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 13:34:29 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 13:34:29 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
In-Reply-To: <01c16f6b$9dd2b460$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: 

rudy,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: rudy
>
> >         , (SELECT rand.random * 100000000
> >              FROM dual
> >           ) AS rank
>
> yup, that would explain it
>
> i haven't used oracle's random number generator but
> your interpretation of it being run only once and the
> result used on each row of the outer query sounds like
> the answer
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

oracle doesn't have a built-in random number generator so i had to have the
stored procedure added.  keeping in mind that it must be queried like the
above (doesn't need the * 100000000 bit though), do you have any suggestions
for how i can query it once for each row thereby giving each row a randomly
generated number?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 13:35:50 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 13:35:50 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

matt,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Warden, Matt
>
> > do you want the casual site user to be able to easily
> > find your user record in the system?
>
> Sure do.
>
> And, couldn't they just click the author link in my
> articles?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

what if you hadn't authored an article or commented on an article?  do you
still want to be found as easily as a search would facilitate?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sat Nov 17 13:38:04 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sat Nov 17 13:38:04 2001
Subject: [thesite] [teo/weo] Article Viewing
Message-ID: <019001c16fa0$0133b160$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

(last email today, I promise ;)

Let's look at the article viewing continuity .. I think we have some
problems (houston).  ;)

With all the wonderful additions .. the article view is currently as such:

Article (author info on the right)
Author Bio
Article Rating
Other Articles by this Author
Reader Comments (Article)

Ouch ... we've lost the continuity with the Article now.

We're jumping back and forth with what's part of the article and what's the
author's additional information.  I know we discussed this before when we
first added the "Other Articles by this Author" section .. but now I'm
afraid the continuity is lost.

One thing that might improve it .. is to "bullet" the Other Articles ..
which, btw, seems to be working great now Jeff .. tested it under different
users and the results appear much better.

Ideally, in order to keep the continuity of the article, I think we need to
either (a) put the additional author's info after the comments, or (b) put
both pieces of author's information before the ratings.  Let's discuss the
pros and cons of each and decide which option best serves our purposes.

That's all for me ... (she says now ;)

Mich






From r937 at interlog.com  Sat Nov 17 13:48:30 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sat Nov 17 13:48:30 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
Message-ID: <01c16fa1$2c092860$de51149a@rudy>

> do you have any suggestions for how i can query it once for each row

you're talking about
http://www.orafaq.com/msgboard/tools/messages/2146.htm, right?

frankly, i have no idea about oracle packages, however, if you can query it
from dual then i don't see why you couldn't query it from some other table
and expect it to get (re)evaluated for each row...

yup, i was right, here ya go --

SQL> select categoryid, rand.random from categorys;

CATEGORYID     RANDOM
---------- ----------
         1 .884901581
      4090 .328118896
      4091 .460609436
        12 .124318085
        17 .153736572
        18 .746638153
        20 .936595215
        21 .533955688
        22 .401109344
        23 .119030762
        25 .110170898
        26 .312037659
      9741 .091429535
     10047 .808234558

14 rows selected.



so just plunk rand.random*1000000000 as randum (or whatever) into the
SELECT list of the outer query and you're good to go


rudy




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sat Nov 17 13:49:27 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sat Nov 17 13:49:27 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] Membership Bugs/Fixes
References: 
Message-ID: <019901c16fa1$9a6654e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Jeff,

Awesome .. yeah, it appears to work just fine now .. selecting the CSS that
is.

I see your point about setting a Priv level here .. it is out of context
tho, so, if we are going to keep that part, I'll work on rewording it so it
makes sense to the average member/user.

What are your plans for fixing up this Membership part ?  We need to add a
place for the "bio" to be entered somewhere .. I'm guessing this will be
added before we proceed to further creating the member profiles in its
entirety.

One thing I noticed, I went in with joethetester id (thanks for the p/w),
and changed my email on the first page of the "create membership" and
selected a priv level .. but the new email didn't change on my user page.
So, I edited it there and saved it.  I know you said there are probs .. just
pointing this one out too.

Holler when ya want some more testing done .. its all starting to come
together nicely tho.

Mich


| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
| > first log in, when I selected "save" it didn't, changed
| > everything to white, i.e. no stylesheet at all.  Logged
| > out, went back in and selected a stylesheet again, and
| > then it saved.  As I said above, not real easy to debug
| > without creating additional junk accounts.  btw, in case
| > it mattes, the above was done without having selected
| > "remember me".
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
|
| i *think* i've found what was causing that and have fixed it.





From r937 at interlog.com  Sat Nov 17 13:51:14 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sat Nov 17 13:51:14 2001
Subject: [thesite] [teo/weo] Article Viewing
Message-ID: <01c16fa1$9ee96c00$de51149a@rudy>

>(last email today, I promise ;)

why?  i gotta be honest, michele, i'm not keeping up with everything you're
doing, but that's only because i know you're doing such a great job, so all
i can say is, please don't stop

okay, take a break, take the weekend off, but keep going with your
critiques, 'cause we shore can use the keen eye and sensible mind you
contribute


rudy






From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 14:25:27 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 14:25:27 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
In-Reply-To: <01c16fa1$2c092860$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: 

rudy,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: rudy
>
> you're talking about
> http://www.orafaq.com/msgboard/tools/messages/2146.htm,
> right?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah.  tried that and i'm getting an oracle error:

Oracle Error Code = 4031
ORA-04031: unable to allocate 4096 bytes of shared memory ("shared
pool","STANDARD","PL/SQL MPCODE","BAMIMA: Bam Buffer") ORA-06508: PL/SQL:
could not find program unit being called ORA-06512: at "EVOLTTEST.RAND",
line 7 ORA-06512: at line 1


SQL = "SELECT content.contentid , content.keyphrase , content.contentname ,
content.synopsis , content.datemod , content.replies , content.rating ,
content.ratings , users.userid , users.who , categorys.category ,
categorys.categoryid , rand.random AS rank FROM content , users , categorys
WHERE categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid AND content.userid =
users.userid AND content.signoff = 1 AND content.categoryid NOT IN (1, 23,
26, 9741) AND content.datemod < '17-Nov-00' ORDER BY rank"

Data Source = "EVOLTTEST"

dean, you got any ideas about this?

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 14:33:22 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 14:33:22 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

rudy (and dean),

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: .jeff
>
> yeah.  tried that [...]
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

nevermind, i got it working.  i just had to reload the page.

    SELECT content.contentid
         , content.keyphrase
         , content.contentname
         , content.synopsis
         , content.datemod
         , content.replies
         , content.rating
         , content.ratings
         , users.userid
         , users.who
         , categorys.category
         , categorys.categoryid
         , rand.random AS rank
      FROM content
         , users
         , categorys
     WHERE categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid
       AND content.userid = users.userid
       AND content.signoff = 1
       AND content.categoryid NOT IN (1, 23, 26, 9741)
       AND content.datemod < '#DateFormat(DateAdd("yyyy" , -1, Now()))#'
     ORDER BY rank

dean, any thoughts on why that error occurred to begin with?

(btw, props to joshua for turning me on to this solution -- one query baby,
OH YEAH)

although double-checking execution times, i'm not sure i like the penalty of
reducing it to a single query.  this single query takes an average of
500-600ms to execute.  these two queries reliably execute in sub 40ms (with
the advantage that the first one is cachable).

    SELECT contentid
      FROM content
     WHERE signoff = 1
       AND categoryid NOT IN (1, 23, 26, 9741)
       AND datemod < '#DateFormat(DateAdd("yyyy" , -1, Now()))#'

    SELECT content.contentid
         , content.keyphrase
         , content.contentname
         , content.synopsis
         , content.datemod
         , content.replies
         , content.rating
         , content.ratings
         , users.userid
         , users.who
         , categorys.category
         , categorys.categoryid
      FROM content
         , users
         , categorys
     WHERE categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid
       AND content.userid = users.userid
       AND content.signoff = 1
       AND content.categoryid NOT IN (1, 23, 26, 9741)
       AND content.contentid = #Val(getrevivedrange.contentid[RandRange(1,
getrevivedrange.recordcount)])#

based on the time differences, i think i'll stick with the two query
approach.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 14:49:52 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 14:49:52 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

matt,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Warden, Matt
> 
> Thanks, bro.
> 
> ... and for all the other hard work you've been doing.
> 
> r0ck.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

thanks.  just trying to make evolt.org a better place.

later,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 14:50:45 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 14:50:45 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: <016601c16f96$da53ff40$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
> 
> The search User's option has been there for a while...
> but only to logged in users.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah, since like the birth of v2.0 i think.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Sat Nov 17 14:59:58 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Sat Nov 17 14:59:58 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug] Article View - Non-Logged in Status
In-Reply-To: <017201c16f98$eb163da0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 17, Michele Foster had something to say about [thesite] [t.e.o.]...

>
>Would you like to rate this article? Article ratings encourage evolt
>contributors to keep writing the good stuff. Help make our authors feel
>wanted! You need to log in to rate an article. You can enter your username
>and password on the right. If you aren't a member of evolt.org yet,
>register and become a part of the community!
>

"You need to log in to rate an article. You can enter your username
and password on the right"

Howsabout:

To rate an article, log in by entering your username and password into the
(repective?) boxes on the right.

You can forget my exact wording... i'd just like to see those two
sentences combined.

Thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 15:01:44 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 15:01:44 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug] Article View - Non-Logged in Status
In-Reply-To: <017201c16f98$eb163da0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
> 
> > From a non-logged in status .. viewing an article ..
> > there's a problem with the link to "register" in the
> > Reader Comments section.
> 
> The link is pointing to:
> 
> http://test.evolt.org/user/#vars#?action=signup#and_tokens#
> 
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

fixed.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> 
> Would you like to rate this article? Article ratings
> encourage evolt contributors to keep writing the good
> stuff. Help make our authors feel wanted! You need to
> log in to rate an article. You can enter your username
> and password on the right. If you aren't a member of
> evolt.org yet, register and become a part
> of the community! 
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

done.

changed the one reference to evolt to evolt.org.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Sat Nov 17 15:12:23 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Sat Nov 17 15:12:23 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] Membership Bugs/Fixes
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 17, .jeff had something to say about RE: [thesite] [t.e.o.]...

>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>> and I object to the option of "evolt gods" being an
>> option.  I can't think of any case where there needs
>> to be a distinction made between Admin/God privs for
>> user information... just as confusion IMHO.
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
>it could possibly be changed to read "virtually noone".  godmins could still
>see it, but it would likely only be used for administrative purposes.

you could probably do away with the "virtually" part and just have it say
"no one"

ya know... that whole discussion we had a while back about there being the
unwritten rule that at least SOMEONE has access to the raw database and
SOMEONE will be able to view the data if they really want to.

just throwing that in there.

thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From r937 at interlog.com  Sat Nov 17 15:33:45 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sat Nov 17 15:33:45 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
Message-ID: <01c16faf$c492cec0$de51149a@rudy>

> based on the time differences, i think i'll stick with
> the two query approach.

hey, i'm not going to argue with facts, but you are definitely comparing
apples and oranges

in the first of your two queries, you select all articles that are not in
special categories and less than a year old, and in the second of the two
queries, you have

     WHERE categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid
       AND content.userid = users.userid
       AND content.signoff = 1
       AND content.categoryid NOT IN (1, 23, 26, 9741)
       AND content.contentid = #Val(getrevivedrange.contentid[RandRange(1,
getrevivedrange.recordcount)])#

i'm guessing, but it looks like the last condition might be selecting one
or some (five?) of the contentids from the first of the two queries

by the way, that last condition, content.contentid = [something], means
you are going after specific articles, so you might as well remove the
preceding 2 qualifications, which, presumably, were already satisfied in
the first query

the difference in timings is most likely due to the fact that in the
one-query approach, you are joining all articles to their users and
categories, but in the two-query approach, you are only joining them if
they've met the selection criteria

yeah, the optimizer should've picked up on that, and maybe there's a way to
use HINT to get it to do the same, or perhaps we might try a different
tack...

could you run the following test for me?

    SELECT content.contentid
         , content.keyphrase
         , content.contentname
         , content.synopsis
         , content.datemod
         , content.replies
         , content.rating
         , content.ratings
         , users.userid
         , users.who
         , categorys.category
         , categorys.categoryid
   /* note no random number here */
      FROM content
         , users
         , categorys
     WHERE categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid
       AND content.userid = users.userid
       AND contentid IN
         ( SELECT contentid
             FROM
            ( SELECT contentid, rand.random AS randum
              RANK() OVER
                (ORDER BY randum ASC NULLS LAST) AS contrank
                FROM content
               WHERE content.signoff = 1
                 AND content.categoryid
                     NOT IN (1, 23, 26, 9741)
            ORDER BY randum ASC NULLS LAST
            )
           WHERE contrank < 6
         )

if you want, try the subquery first

this uses the new RANK() function in oracle 8

i admit, i have never used it before, but i ran across it in the following
article which i found when searching for "top ten" resources --

  Performing Top-N Queries in Oracle
  http://gethelp.devx.com/techtips/oracle_pro/10min/10min1200/10min1200.asp

obviously, you may need to adjust WHERE contrank < 6 (which returns the top
five) to reflect however many random articles you want out of the subquery


rudy





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 15:38:42 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 15:38:42 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] Membership Bugs/Fixes
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

matt,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Warden, Matt
>
> > it could possibly be changed to read "virtually
> > noone".  godmins could still see it, but it would
> > likely only be used for administrative purposes.
>
> you could probably do away with the "virtually" part
> and just have it say "no one"
>
> ya know... that whole discussion we had a while back
> about there being the unwritten rule that at least
> SOMEONE has access to the raw database and SOMEONE
> will be able to view the data if they really want to.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah, i considered that.  i'm just uneasy about implying to the end user
that data in the database can still be accessed by someone.  i do see your
point though.  i'm cool either way.  i was just trying to throw out an
option.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 16:15:34 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 16:15:34 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
In-Reply-To: <01c16faf$c492cec0$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: 

rudy,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: rudy
>
> hey, i'm not going to argue with facts, but you are
> definitely comparing apples and oranges
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah, i'm aware of that.  i'm really only interested in how much processing
time the different approaches requires to achieve the same end result.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> in the first of your two queries, you select all
> articles that are not in special categories and less
> than a year old, and in the second of the two queries,
> you have
>
>      WHERE categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid
>        AND content.userid = users.userid
>        AND content.signoff = 1
>        AND content.categoryid NOT IN (1, 23, 26, 9741)
>        AND content.contentid = #Val(getrevivedrange.contentid[RandRange(1,
getrevivedrange.recordcount)])#
>
> i'm guessing, but it looks like the last condition might
> be selecting one or some (five?) of the contentids from
> the first of the two queries
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

selecting one.  let's break it down.

the first query returns all the contentids that match the criteria you
noted.

RandRange(1, getrevivedrange.recordcount)

this gives me a single number from 1 to the recordcount of that first query.
let's call this randomindex

getrevivedrange.contentid[randomindex]

this is a reference to a particular row in the first query results where
randomindex is the row number.  let's call this randomid.

AND content.contentid = randomid

as you can see this becomes a query to return a single record.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> by the way, that last condition, content.contentid =
> [something], means you are going after specific articles,
> so you might as well remove the preceding 2
> qualifications, which, presumably, were already
> satisfied in the first query
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yes, very good point and something i missed in converting matt's approach to
something more efficient.  i've removed the categoryid NOT IN () criteria as
well as the signoff = 1 criteria and the processing time has dropped to an
average of 15ms.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> the difference in timings is most likely due to the fact
> that in the one-query approach, you are joining all
> articles to their users and categories, but in the
> two-query approach, you are only joining them if they've
> met the selection criteria
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah, a join on a few results is likely to be faster than a join on many
results.  you suppose with the two query approach that re-ordering the
criteria would make it even faster?

     WHERE content.contentid = #Val(getrevivedrange.contentid[RandRange(1,
getrevivedrange.recordcount)])#
       AND categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid
       AND content.userid = users.userid

i just tested it and it doesn't seem to yield any notice time differences.

perhaps the optimizer is already doing that for me internally.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> yeah, the optimizer should've picked up on that, and
> maybe there's a way to use HINT to get it to do the
> same, or perhaps we might try a different tack...
>
> could you run the following test for me?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

sure

    SELECT content.contentid
         , content.keyphrase
         , content.contentname
         , content.synopsis
         , content.datemod
         , content.replies
         , content.rating
         , content.ratings
         , users.userid
         , users.who
         , categorys.category
         , categorys.categoryid
      FROM content
         , users
         , categorys
     WHERE categorys.categoryid = content.categoryid
       AND content.userid = users.userid
       AND contentid IN
         ( SELECT contentid
             FROM
            ( SELECT contentid, rand.random AS randum
              RANK() OVER
                (ORDER BY randum ASC NULLS LAST) AS contrank
                FROM content
               WHERE content.signoff = 1
                 AND content.categoryid
                     NOT IN (1, 23, 26, 9741)
            ORDER BY randum ASC NULLS LAST
            )
           WHERE contrank < 6
         )

Oracle Error Code = 923
ORA-00923: FROM keyword not found where expected

Cause: In a SELECT or REVOKE statement, the keyword FROM was either missing,
misplaced, or misspelled. The keyword FROM must follow the last selected
item in a SELECT statement or the privileges in a REVOKE statement.

Action: Correct the syntax. Insert the keyword FROM where appropriate. The
SELECT list itself also may be in error. If quotation marks were used in an
alias, check that double quotation marks enclose the alias. Also, check to
see if a reserved word was used as an alias.

http://download-west.oracle.com/otndoc/oracle9i/901_doc/server.901/a90202/e9
00.htm#1000549

it looks like maybe it doesn't like the parenthetical right after the FROM
in the first nested SELECT.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> obviously, you may need to adjust WHERE contrank < 6
> (which returns the top five) to reflect however many
> random articles you want out of the subquery
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

WHERE contrank < 2 to return just one?



need to find out what a particular oracle error number means?  use this
handy bookmarklet and then it's only a click away.  you can either select
the error string in the browser window or click the bookmarklet and enter
the error string into a prompt().  works in ie5+ only.

javascript:function oracleError(){var
errNum=document.selection.createRange().text;if(!errNum||errNum=='')errNum=p
rompt('What\'s the error identifier?',
'');if(errNum)location.href='http://tahiti.oracle.com/pls/db901/db901.error_
search?search='+errNum;}oracleError();void(0);



thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 16:21:48 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 16:21:48 2001
Subject: [thesite] comment searches
In-Reply-To: <01111711582800.02403@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

bruce,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Bruce Heerssen
>
> You're right to an extent. We could perhaps convince a
> slight few who would not otherwise register, but the
> overwhelming majority still would not.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i think that's an unfair assumption.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > it would be discriminatory if the users that were left
> > out were left out because of something they couldn't
> > change.  however, 2 minutes of their time and that
> > barrier is no longer there.
>
> From experience so far, two minutes of their time seems
> to be enough of a barrier. You and I may think it's not
> much of a barrier, but evidence suggests otherwise.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

still, in response to you calling it discriminatory, if the user can
overcome the barrier, it cannot be called discriminatory.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> The ability to post articles and comments is a pretty
> powerful hook. However, this begs the question, why do
> we need so many people to register with w.e.o?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

only registered users can comment on articles.  only registered users can
rate articles.  only registered users can submit articles.  i'd like to get
the occurrence of each of these tings increased.  you can only do that by a)
getting the existing membership more involved (which is itself a problem
that needs solving) and/or b) getting more people to register and use the
site.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Uhh... What user search? I've never seen such a thing,
> and I can't find it now.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

in the sidebar, just below the comment search which is just below the
article search.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Not requiring a registration for this sort of search
> would cut down on the number of bogus registrations,
> [...]
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

do we know that we have bogus registrations that were created for the
purpose of harvesting our userbase?  i doubt the non-registered user is even
aware that registering and logging in gives them that resource.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> and we already have mechanisms in place to stop spiderts
> (to use dan's term).
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

do we?  i'm not aware of anything being setup.  however, if it is setup and
uses the techniques that dan outlines in his "how to stop bad robots"
article, then we're not really all that protected.  the info is only really
protected from the totally automated bots which aren't a threat anyway
because they don't register accounts or login.  what we're not protected
from is the harvester that uses something like teleport pro with its user
agent string set to some recognizable browser user agent string.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> If there really is a user search, it should be either
> 1) restricted to administrators to use, or 2) opt in
> (members are not included in it unless they
> specifically agree to it in their preferences).
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

it's been available on the site for about a year now with no complaints.  i
see little reason to put restrictions (option 2) in place.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > m.e.o. isn't the core piece of evolt.org.  the
> > centerpiece is w.e.o.  the hooks for registration to
> > w.e.o. need to exist within w.e.o.
>
> In that case, we have the list sign-up, which if I'm
> not mistaken, signs one up for w.e.o also? If not, it
> should.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

let me say it again.  the hook for w.e.o. should be in w.e.o.  thelist is
not a core piece of w.e.o.  it is separate.  i agree that the membership for
both should be tied more intimately together, but we're struggling with a
technical roadblock that's keeping us from executing on that.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> With the coming of ueue (soon, I hope?), this hook only
> gets stronger
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

provided we make the user on w.e.o. aware that registration on w.e.o. grants
them access to all these other resources on subsites.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 16:35:26 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 16:35:26 2001
Subject: [thesite] [teo/weo] Article Viewing
In-Reply-To: <019001c16fa0$0133b160$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> (last email today, I promise ;)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

you already broke this promise not even 15 minutes later.  *grin*

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> Let's look at the article viewing continuity .. I think
> we have some problems (houston).  ;)
>
> Article (author info on the right)
> Author Bio
> Article Rating
> Other Articles by this Author
> Reader Comments (Article)
>
> Ouch ... we've lost the continuity with the Article now.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i think it should be:

Article (author info on the right)
Author Bio
Article Rating
Reader Comments (Article)
Other Articles by this Author

the reason for putting the other articles by this author bit at the bottom
is that we don't want to lead the reader away from the page until they've
had an opportunity to at least scroll past the article rating and comments
sections.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> One thing that might improve it .. is to "bullet" the
> Other Articles ..
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

how do you mean?

could you do a quick html mock-up of what you mean?

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> which, btw, seems to be working great now Jeff .. tested
> it under different users and the results appear much
> better.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

i'm still not happy with it though as the top 5 articles for most authors is
those articles with a rating of 5 and 1 or 2 total ratings.  maybe this will
get those articles that need to have the rating averaged out taken care of.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sat Nov 17 16:47:16 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sat Nov 17 16:47:16 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] Membership Bugs/Fixes
In-Reply-To: <019901c16fa1$9a6654e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> I see your point about setting a Priv level here .. it
> is out of context tho, so, if we are going to keep that
> part, I'll work on rewording it so it makes sense to
> the average member/user.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

cool.  you just need to understand what it's for so you can write an
accurate description that will make sense to the average user.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> What are your plans for fixing up this Membership part ?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

none yet.  there's *alot* of work to get this working.  before i get too
involved in it i'd like to see the proposed output as that may affect what
information i collect and how i collect it.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> We need to add a place for the "bio" to be entered
> somewhere .. I'm guessing this will be added before we
> proceed to further creating the member profiles in its
> entirety.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

agreed.  i think we could easily add it to the edit account page.  it
doesn't need to go in the database either.  it could just as easily be in a
text file.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> One thing I noticed, I went in with joethetester id
> (thanks for the p/w), and changed my email on the first
> page of the "create membership" and selected a priv
> level .. but the new email didn't change on my user
> page.  So, I edited it there and saved it.  I know you
> said there are probs .. just pointing this one out too.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

no, this isn't the kind of problem i'm talking about.  these two instances
of email address are stored in different places in the database.  the one on
the "create membership" page is stored in the member table.  the one on the
"edit account" page is stored in the user table.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From r937 at interlog.com  Sat Nov 17 20:25:08 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sat Nov 17 20:25:08 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
Message-ID: <01c16fd8$85e3c340$de51149a@rudy>

>Oracle Error Code = 923
>ORA-00923: FROM keyword not found where expected

urggle

well, it's probably not where you said, because as far as i know oracle is
pretty orthogonal (sorry, that's rdbms-speak for sql compliant)

in other words, it's probably not

       SELECT contentid
         FROM
            ( SELECT

that's causing the error, but rather

       SELECT contentid, rand.random AS randum
              RANK() OVER
                (ORDER BY randum ASC NULLS LAST) AS contrank
                    FROM content

which, i figured, was a faithful reproduction of the syntax i saw in that
devx article

oh well, two queries it is, at least in the interim, until/unless dean or
dan or some other oracle guru steps in...

the only other idea i have is to use a temp table to store the sorted
random contentids in (instead of returning them to the cf code), and then
selecting the first one off that table using min(randum) or something...
but that would require a temp table

now, a temp table is not a bad idea, but i think it means a stored proc,
unless there's a way for cf to pass a couple of queries over and have them
executed as a block?

i dunno, i've never seen an oracle stored proc nor an oracle temp table

oh well


remember my #1 rule -- never give up

i guess i didn't mention corollary #1A -- it's okay to take a rest once in
a while from pounding your head against the wall...




From martin at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 03:52:21 2001
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Sun Nov 18 03:52:21 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
Message-ID: 

.jeff wrote on 15/11/01 11:03 pm

>martin,
>
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>> From: Martin
>>
>> I can't see a downside,
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
>the downside is there is *lots* of crap in the sidebar.  adding more serves
>only to confuse people more.  i wonder how much of the stuff there is used
>by our userbase.  i wonder what is not used at all.

As all the links in the sidebar have specific URLs (like the rating
ones have 'rating' instead of the coded sidebar) it's easy enough
to find out. Also, they serve a useful purpose in boosting us up
the Google rankings as they're counted as links in the Google
Pagerank algorithm.

>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>> although as the chief benefit is for people with the
>> priv to make comments (ie registered members), that's
>> where I'd go first off.
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
>i'd like to clarify.  do you mean logged in users (priv 1) or members (priv
>2)?
>
>if it's priv >= 1, then +1 from me.

Logged in users (priv 1)

Cheers
Martin

_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
       martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
  tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985                      Edinburgh,
  url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk                 Scotland




From webguru at vsnl.net  Sun Nov 18 07:08:33 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sun Nov 18 07:08:33 2001
Subject: [thesite] Bug alert
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011118183701.00ae5740@203.197.12.4>

Hi.

Just tried searching for my user name on the main page of evolt.org. When I 
entered cold_logic in the user name input box and pressed tab, the focus 
shifted to the "Go" button of the article search input box.

FYI.

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sun Nov 18 11:14:01 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sun Nov 18 11:14:01 2001
Subject: [thesite] Article View Samples
Message-ID: <002501c17055$0b5a8fa0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Folks,

I've created a few sample pages for the article views .. I'm not isaac tho
.. hehe :)

Sample 1:
http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/newstyles/article_view_1.htm

This one combines the author's bio and his/her other articles published on
evolt.org. Information is separated by 
 tags, but uses the same class as
the main content.

I thought there were too many links (too many options) to click for the
articles, so I created sample 2, which has less information and puts the
article first.


Sample 2:
http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/newstyles/article_view_2.htm

This one is the same as above, except only the article title and its
category is presented.


Sample 3:

http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/newstyles/article_view_3.htm

A variation of Sample 2 above, but eliminating the 
 tags and instead
using the sidebar class.  Problem with this option is that if the author's
bio contains links, the class .sidebar needs to be applied to those links.
I'm not sure if this can be done programmatically.


None of the above samples take into consideration the concerns raised about
breaking up the article flow by putting the author's info in the middle ..
nor the concern raised about providing links away from the article, before
the ratings and reader comments.

Personally, I like the two pieces of information together.  Ideally, if the
author hasn't written any additional articles, it would be nice for that
section not to show up at all, instead of saying "this author has written
any other articles".  And, the same goes for it there is no bio available,
just leave that out completely, instead of a "no bio provided" sort of
thing.

Anyway, a few ideas, suggestions .....

Comments please!!

If anyone is so inclined, feel free to d/l my samples and create other
variations.  I've added a zip file at:
http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/newstyles/article.zip which includes the
original article page I started with, the css file and the images.


Thanks,

Michele






From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 11:17:50 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 18 11:17:50 2001
Subject: [thesite] Bug alert
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011118183701.00ae5740@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: 

madhu,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Madhu Menon
>
> Just tried searching for my user name on the main page
> of evolt.org. When I entered cold_logic in the user
> name input box and pressed tab, the focus shifted to
> the "Go" button of the article search input box.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

fixed, no repro.  win2k/ie6.  what combination are you seeing this in?

tabindexes are 14 for the input and 15 for the button.  no idea why the
browser would think the article go button was the next in the tab sequence.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 11:25:04 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 18 11:25:04 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

martin,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Martin
>
> As all the links in the sidebar have specific URLs (like
> the rating ones have 'rating' instead of the coded
> sidebar) it's easy enough to find out.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yes, true.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> > if it's priv >= 1, then +1 from me.
>
> Logged in users (priv 1)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

the new comments sidebar feature has been available to priv >= 1 since may
when matt changed it.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sun Nov 18 11:27:47 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sun Nov 18 11:27:47 2001
Subject: [thesite] Bug alert
References: 
Message-ID: <002c01c17056$fad75940$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Jeff,

----- Original Message -----
From: ".jeff" 

|
| fixed, no repro.  win2k/ie6.  what combination are you seeing this in?
|
| tabindexes are 14 for the input and 15 for the button.  no idea why the
| browser would think the article go button was the next in the tab
sequence.
|


Is there a difference between weo/teo tabindexes?  i.e. a change on teo that
hasn't been updated to weo?

I see the same prob on weo .. but its fine on teo for all search boxes.

IE5.5/win98


Mich






From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 11:49:15 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 18 11:49:15 2001
Subject: [thesite] Bug alert
In-Reply-To: <002c01c17056$fad75940$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
> 
> | fixed, no repro.  win2k/ie6.  what combination are you
> | seeing this in?
> |
> | tabindexes are 14 for the input and 15 for the button.
> | no idea why the browser would think the article go
> | button was the next in the tab sequence.
> 
> Is there a difference between weo/teo tabindexes?  i.e.
> a change on teo that hasn't been updated to weo?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yeah, i fixed that when i added the comment search box on t.e.o.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sun Nov 18 12:07:44 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sun Nov 18 12:07:44 2001
Subject: Comment Search Box .. was Re: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
References: 
Message-ID: <004301c1705c$8ff6c1a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Jeff,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Howden" 


|
| 5)  dropped a comments search box in the
|     sidebar for all users (yes, i concede to
|     conventional wisdom)


When you say "all users" do you mean regardless of logged-in status?  Or did
you mean logged in users only?  I thought you conceded to conventional
wisdom ;)  and added this new feature to be available for all site visitors?

If so, it's not working for priv=0.

Throwing an error saying:

"Sorry, you are not authorized to use this feature."

Please clarify your intent for this feature.   :)

Mich





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sun Nov 18 12:18:29 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sun Nov 18 12:18:29 2001
Subject: [thesite] [teo/weo] Article Viewing
References: 
Message-ID: <006e01c1705e$0ffa8e80$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Jeff,

----- Original Message ----- 
From: ".jeff" 


| michele,
| 
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
| > From: Michele Foster
| >
| > (last email today, I promise ;)
| ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
| 
| you already broke this promise not even 15 minutes later.  *grin*


Doesn't count if I'm responding to someone else ... :) 

M





From webguru at vsnl.net  Sun Nov 18 12:40:44 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sun Nov 18 12:40:44 2001
Subject: [thesite] Bug alert
In-Reply-To: <20011118175540.A62F8BFA2@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119000730.00ad4c70@203.197.12.4>

Jeff,

At 11:25 PM 11/18/2001, .jeff opined:
>fixed, no repro.  win2k/ie6.  what combination are you seeing this in?
>
>tabindexes are 14 for the input and 15 for the button.  no idea why the
>browser would think the article go button was the next in the tab sequence.

Not on the version I'm getting. I'm using IE6/Win2K Pro too.

Here's the code fragment for the search. As you can see, both the article 
search AND the user search have a TABINDEX of 10, while both the GO buttons 
have a TANBINDEX of 14. I'm logged in as cold_logic.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Search evolt.org


   

   

   

         
         
   

   
[Advanced Search]

   







   

   

   

         
         
   

   
[Advanced Search]

   





---------------------------------------------------------------

WTF? Of course, I tried refreshing the page, etc.

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Sun Nov 18 12:43:03 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Sun Nov 18 12:43:03 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 18, Martin had something to say about RE: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug] ...

>>the downside is there is *lots* of crap in the sidebar.  adding more serves
>>only to confuse people more.  i wonder how much of the stuff there is used
>>by our userbase.  i wonder what is not used at all.
>
>As all the links in the sidebar have specific URLs (like the rating
>ones have 'rating' instead of the coded sidebar) it's easy enough
>to find out. Also, they serve a useful purpose in boosting us up
>the Google rankings as they're counted as links in the Google
>Pagerank algorithm.

Totally contradictory. They'd only increase google's pagerank value if
they were the same links, not specific urls with "rating" or "comment" in
the place of the article title.

Regardless, though, I think the point was "how much is too much in the
sidebar." I don't want to see articles that are only one screen long, but
the page is stretched to a screen and a half because of the sidebar.

Thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com





From martin at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 12:55:07 2001
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Sun Nov 18 12:55:07 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
Message-ID: 

Warden, Matt wrote on 18/11/01 6:45 pm

>On Nov 18, Martin had something to say about RE: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug] ...
>
>> they serve a useful purpose in boosting us up
>>the Google rankings as they're counted as links in the Google
>>Pagerank algorithm.
>
>Totally contradictory. They'd only increase google's pagerank value if
>they were the same links, not specific urls with "rating" or "comment" in
>the place of the article title.

Not contradictory at all if you take a moment to think it through a bit
more.

They increase the pagerank of the URLs with 'rating' or 'comment' in -
which means that articles on our site appear further up the listings. 

The URLs with the page title in question are also in the Google resultset,
separately listed some pages down. You're right in that it doesn't boost
the rank of the normal URL. But it absolutely does boost the rank of
an alternative URL to the same article. It boosts it a long, long way.

As you may remember, I did some research when I found my second
CMS article was for a while the first result when you searched for
'Content Management System' on Google.

The URL in question was the 'rating' one, and the only place that occurs
is in our sidebar... on every page in the site. Each of those links adds
to the Google pageweight of our top 5 rated articles.

>Regardless, though, I think the point was "how much is too much in the
>sidebar."  I don't want to see articles that are only one screen long, but
>the page is stretched to a screen and a half because of the sidebar.

Indeed. But there's more to the question than 'how long does it make the
page for short articles'. We need to weigh *all* of the pros and cons,
not just the simplistic "I think it makes some pages look a bit silly",
and reach a decision on *all* of them.

And I'm not sure that thesite is the best place to decide on something
which will drastically reduce our visibility on major search engines.

Cheers
Martin

_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
       martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
  tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985                      Edinburgh,
  url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk                 Scotland




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 12:59:16 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 18 12:59:16 2001
Subject: [thesite] Bug alert
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119000730.00ad4c70@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: 

madhu,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Madhu Menon
>
> Here's the code fragment for the search. As you can see,
> both the article search AND the user search have a
> TABINDEX of 10, while both the GO buttons have a
> TANBINDEX of 14. I'm logged in as cold_logic.
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

are you seeing this on http://www.evolt.org/ or http://test.evolt.org/?  the
code looks to me like what is on w.e.o, not t.e.o. (which was fixed
yesterday).

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 13:00:52 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 18 13:00:52 2001
Subject: Comment Search Box .. was Re: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
In-Reply-To: <004301c1705c$8ff6c1a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
>
> When you say "all users" do you mean regardless of
> logged-in status?
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

that's what my intention was.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> I thought you conceded to conventional wisdom ;)  and
> added this new feature to be available for all site
> visitors?
>
> If so, it's not working for priv=0.
>
> Throwing an error saying:
>
> "Sorry, you are not authorized to use this feature."
>
> Please clarify your intent for this feature.   :)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

hey, i didn't say it'd return search results for all users, just that it'd
be available.  ;p

j/k

i thought it was working for everybody.  from the looks of the conditional
and the timestamp on the file, i don't think i was the last one to modify
it.  anyway, fixed now.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at alphashop.net  Sun Nov 18 13:51:38 2001
From: jeff at alphashop.net (Jeff Howden)
Date: Sun Nov 18 13:51:38 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. update
Message-ID: 

hi all,

completed the following:

1)  fixed thelist box so it'd validate.

2)  fixed thelist box so it ouputs like
    the rest of the sidebar boxes

3)  fixed the new comments sidebar so it
    includes a ...more link for logged in
    users

4)  found and fixed more instances of
    session scoped variables, rescoping
    them to app.session to negate the need
    for readonly locks.

that's all for now,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sun Nov 18 14:01:27 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sun Nov 18 14:01:27 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. update
References: 
Message-ID: <00e901c1706c$71cfb0a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Jeff,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Howden" 

Thanks .... almost .... not your fault .. this got missed from before .. was
going to mention it again when I finish doing the CSS files.

thelist .....


Recent threads on thelist [?]



The two  tags need to be classed .sidebar please.  (not showing up in
some CSS files)

Thanks,

Mich




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Sun Nov 18 14:21:16 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Sun Nov 18 14:21:16 2001
Subject: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug]  Recent Threads on thelist ?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 18, Martin had something to say about RE: [thesite] [t.e.o.] [Bug] ...

>>Regardless, though, I think the point was "how much is too much in the
>>sidebar."  I don't want to see articles that are only one screen long, but
>>the page is stretched to a screen and a half because of the sidebar.
>
>Indeed. But there's more to the question than 'how long does it make the
>page for short articles'. We need to weigh *all* of the pros and cons,
>not just the simplistic "I think it makes some pages look a bit silly",
>and reach a decision on *all* of them.

That wasn't meant as a representation of all the cons.

The biggest problem I see is that if we keep making the sidebar bigger and
bigger, what is already there will be looked at less often or ignored
completely. I don't do a very good job at explaining this,
so: www.useit.com (not that I enjoy linking to his site).

Thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 15:15:05 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 18 15:15:05 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. update
In-Reply-To: <00e901c1706c$71cfb0a0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 

michele,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Michele Foster
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> Thanks .... almost .... not your fault .. this got
> missed from before .. was going to mention it again
> when I finish doing the CSS files.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> The two  tags need to be classed .sidebar please. 
> (not showing up in some CSS files)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

done.

more updates

1)  fixed comment notification so it only goes out to the
    rest of the people involved in the conversation (if
    they want notification), but not the comment author or
    the article author.

2)  fixed comment notification to comment authors so it's
    more straightforward.

3)  fixed comment notification so the author doesn't get
    double notice if they've also commented.

4)  fixed comment notification to article author so it's
    more straightforward.

5)  added article title to the comment notifications

6)  added bookmark to new comment in notifications
    http://test.evolt.org/article/view/17/16286/#comment16944

7)  added bookmark to comment post-submission redirect
    http://test.evolt.org/article/view/17/16286/#comment16944

8)  found a couple more instances of links appearing in
    cells classed pageTitle1 or pageTitle2 and added the 
    appropriate class to those links within.

all for now,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 15:17:28 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 18 15:17:28 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. update
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

yo,

almost forgot one major upgrade.

1)  improved comment submission process to
    include validation of comment data to
    prevent comments with no title or body.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 15:51:31 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 18 15:51:31 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
In-Reply-To: <01c16fd8$85e3c340$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: 

rudy,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: rudy
>
> that's causing the error, but rather
>
>    SELECT contentid, rand.random AS randum
>    RANK() OVER
>    (ORDER BY randum ASC NULLS LAST) AS contrank
>      FROM content
>
> which, i figured, was a faithful reproduction of the
> syntax i saw in that devx article
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

yup, that's indeed what's causing the error as i get the same error when i
try to run the above by itself.

i double-checked the syntax (from the article about top-n queries that you
posted) and everything is kosher.  i don't know why it won't work for us
here.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From joshua at alphashop.net  Sun Nov 18 16:03:49 2001
From: joshua at alphashop.net (Joshua Olson)
Date: Sun Nov 18 16:03:49 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
References: <01c16faf$c492cec0$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <099801c1707e$908f5fb0$a600a8c0@mrtnz1.ga.home.com>

Rudy, Jeff,

Could the top-n query technique outlined in the article be used to calculate
the "page throughs" on the front page of evolt?

The pseudo-logic could be, assuming you want to view articles [article min]
to [article max]:

 select those articles in the top [article max] that are NOT in the top
[article min]

-joshua

----- Original Message -----
From: "rudy" 
Subject: Re: [thesite] t.e.o. updates




: this uses the new RANK() function in oracle 8
:
: i admit, i have never used it before, but i ran across it in the following
: article which i found when searching for "top ten" resources --
:
:   Performing Top-N Queries in Oracle
:
http://gethelp.devx.com/techtips/oracle_pro/10min/10min1200/10min1200.asp
:
: obviously, you may need to adjust WHERE contrank < 6 (which returns the
top
: five) to reflect however many random articles you want out of the subquery




From r937 at interlog.com  Sun Nov 18 16:54:38 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sun Nov 18 16:54:38 2001
Subject: [thesite] t.e.o. updates
Message-ID: <01c17084$2bb8a640$e24e149a@rudy>

> select those articles in the top [article max] 
> that are NOT in the top [article min]

joshua, maybe it's me, but i don't get what you're suggesting

also, the RANK() thing doesn't seem to be working

there is an sql-only top-x method, but the performance sucks

rudy




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sun Nov 18 17:33:55 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sun Nov 18 17:33:55 2001
Subject: [thesite] Article View Samples - Updated 
References: <002501c17055$0b5a8fa0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: <012001c1708a$23c511c0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Reply to myself ... ;)

Option 4 available for review here...

http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/newstyles/article_view_4.htm

Based on Option 3 presented earlier.  Plus a modified version of the evolt
old css file .. specifically the .border class.

Note, this is not a real article .. I just wanted to use one article with
different things in it to best show how it will all look together.  IE5.5 is
ignoring the dotted line under the Acronym (and other) tags.  Yet its
working fine in NS6.1.  The word JavaScript in the first paragraph as a fake
acronym around it for testing purposes.

Modified CSS files to follow.

Please comment on this version .. :)


Thanks,

Michele





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 17:41:52 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Sun Nov 18 17:41:52 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <01c16edc$945f0440$de51149a@rudy>
Message-ID: 

> for what it's worth, i don't like the author's pic and article stats
> available in the article, simply because it's not relevant to the

Some of the stats may be irrelevant, but the author pic could not be *LESS*
relevant. We want to be a community right? We can code ourselves shitless,
but if we can't start putting faces to names (in person or over the net),
we're doing our "community efforts" a massive disservice.


isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Sun Nov 18 18:07:53 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Sun Nov 18 18:07:53 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 19, isaac had something to say about RE: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. -...

>
>> for what it's worth, i don't like the author's pic and article stats
>> available in the article, simply because it's not relevant to the
>
>Some of the stats may be irrelevant, but the author pic could not be *LESS*
>relevant. We want to be a community right? We can code ourselves shitless,
>but if we can't start putting faces to names (in person or over the net),
>we're doing our "community efforts" a massive disservice.

Yeah, that's community stuff, though.

He's talking about relevance, and as far as that goes, I'd have to
agree. I mean, I've never read an article, then looked that the authors
picture and said "well, this guy looks goofy so I'm going to assume he
doesn't know what he's talking about".

Or something like that.

We can put all the doo-dads* we want to on the article page, but we need
to be careful it isn't distracting from the content. I don't know whether
this does. Personally, I can't say I like it, but I just won't upload my
picture.

As for whether other people's articles are degraded by having a picure on
the article page... I dunno.

If it really bugs someone, I guess they can just visit evolt.org in lynx
from now on...

If *I* were doing it, I'd put it on the user page... because that's where
it makes the most sense. But, then again, I'm *not* doing it.



--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com



* things




From isaac at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 18:17:54 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Sun Nov 18 18:17:54 2001
Subject: [thesite] Article View Samples
In-Reply-To: <002501c17055$0b5a8fa0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>
Message-ID: 


We have:

1. article
2. author pic/stats
3. bio
4. ratings
5. comments
6. other articles

Article has to be first with the author pic in the header of the article.
Instantly, your article has character.

Bio (following standard set everywhere else) has to be directly after the
article.

Now, ratings should precede Comments, but it seems that Other Articles is up
for debate.

On one hand, it should sit with the bio (in which case, we have to handle
either other articles not existing, or the bio not being used). On the
other, it should appear beneath comments to avoid visitors getting led off
to other articles before they've rated or commented the current one.

I originally thought the latter might be better, but I'm tending towards the
former (*if* we can keep the listing relatively brief). I'll try a mock-up
sometime today hopefully.


isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sun Nov 18 18:22:04 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sun Nov 18 18:22:04 2001
Subject: [thesite] Article View Samples
References: 
Message-ID: <012b01c17090$de4a5720$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Isaac,

I've done several .... currently we're working on this one ..

Option 4 available for review here...

http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/newstyles/article_view_4.htm

I'm just modifying the CSS files .. almost done isaac.css and
evoltoldschool.css.

I can send them to you shortly if you want them, along with the sample
article that I'm working with.

Mich
(sent off-list too .. in the hopes that we aren't over-riding each other's
work)


----- Original Message -----
From: "isaac" 



| I originally thought the latter might be better, but I'm tending towards
the
| former (*if* we can keep the listing relatively brief). I'll try a mock-up
| sometime today hopefully.
|





From r937 at interlog.com  Sun Nov 18 19:31:18 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Sun Nov 18 19:31:18 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
Message-ID: <01c1709a$45a80bc0$e24e149a@rudy>

> Some of the stats may be irrelevant, but the author pic
> could not be *LESS* relevant.

isaac, i don't want to be argumentative, but you're agreeing with me!

i think you meant to say that the pic is relevant, not as irrelevant as
possible

(perhaps this semantic blur results from the phrase "i could care less"
which is actually a good example of irony... or sarcasm... or something...)

your next note seems to indicate that you favour the pic --

   "Article has to be first with the author pic in the header
     of the article.   Instantly, your article has character."

well, i disagree, and i think all that author stuff belongs on the author's
page

the pic on the article makes us look like zdnet, webmonkey, et friggin
cetera

let's refer this to theprocess folks who will ensure a fair and equitable
vote (fifty percent plus one) amongst all stakeholders -- evolt users,
members, admins, board...

just kidding

no, seriously, it's a major issue, and it will have a huge
impact on the look and feel of the site

maybe it *is* serious enough to take at least to theforum if not thelist

rudy




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Sun Nov 18 19:35:56 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Sun Nov 18 19:35:56 2001
Subject: [thesite] Updated CSS Files
Message-ID: <013b01c1709b$2fe58fa0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

Folks,

I've updated two of the CSS files .. according to the changes that have been
discussed over the past couple of weeks.

Both files now have the same classes.  Both article and homepage views are
from the most recent editions of the HTML pages that Jeff's been working on
this weekend.  The Article page is not a real one, but one that I pulled
together and combined several different things into one file.

Unfortunately, I'm out of time .. I'll do the other files next week.

If anyone sees anything odd, or that needs fixing, please let me know.

The files are at:

http://members.evolt.org/Mishka/newstyles/index.html


Thanks,

Michele





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 19:54:41 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Sun Nov 18 19:54:41 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
In-Reply-To: <01c1709a$45a80bc0$e24e149a@rudy>
Message-ID: 

> isaac, i don't want to be argumentative, but you're agreeing with me!
>
> i think you meant to say that the pic is relevant, not as irrelevant as
> possible

"less irrelevant" sorry.

> the pic on the article makes us look like zdnet, webmonkey, et friggin
> cetera

rudy, i didn't realise you were so worried about personal appearance!

imho, leaving a photo out makes us look impersonal. i don't see why the
comparison with zdnet/etc is at all required here. are we trying to be
different from these other communities, or are we trying to build a good
community? i would hope that we're trying to do the latter.

would it not be cool for someone to walk up to you at an evoltcon one day
and know who you were straight away because they'd become familiarised with
your pic heading each article you'd written? that's more
fellowship/community oriented than ratings, etc.

> no, seriously, it's a major issue, and it will have a
> huge
> impact on the look and feel of the site

leave your photo out of your articles. i'll have mine on my articles.
*shrug*.


isaac




From webguru at vsnl.net  Sun Nov 18 22:00:02 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sun Nov 18 22:00:02 2001
Subject: [thesite] Bug alert
In-Reply-To: <20011119013832.71A9151F13@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119093127.00ab0518@203.197.12.4>

At 07:08 AM 11/19/2001, thesite-admin at lists.evolt.org opined:
>are you seeing this on http://www.evolt.org/ or http://test.evolt.org/?  the
>code looks to me like what is on w.e.o, not t.e.o. (which was fixed
>yesterday).

Yup, it's on w.e.o

Did I say it was on t.e.o ?

[Checks previous message]

No, apparently I didn't.

Anyway, since it's on our *live* site, I figure it's more important :)


Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From webguru at vsnl.net  Sun Nov 18 22:38:00 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sun Nov 18 22:38:00 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this
  Author
In-Reply-To: <20011119013832.71A9151F13@relay.evolt.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119095543.00af28c0@203.197.12.4>

At 07:08 AM 11/19/2001, Rudy opined:

(the language geek returns :)

>(perhaps this semantic blur results from the phrase "i could care less"
>which is actually a good example of irony... or sarcasm... or something...)

Um, no. The phrase "I could care less" is merely incorrect usage. The 
correct form is "I *couldn't* care less".

Reference: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/care.html


>the pic on the article makes us look like zdnet, webmonkey, et friggin
>cetera

I don't agree with you. It adds humanity to the site, and humanity is 
sorely missing on the Web.

It also helps put faces to names. Now you have an inkling of who [xyz], the 
guy who answers all those questions on [abc], is. It reinforces the 
community feeling. We're all (I hope) friends here, and I like it when 
people post pictures of themselves in outrageous Hawaain shirts (Hi 
aardvark!) and weird bunny ears (Hi Isaac!) and even supposedly tickling 
chimps (Hi to me!).

Newspapers and magazines carry pictures of their columnists. This is 
because columnists don't have to restrict themselves to the bland, "just 
the facts, ma'am" type of writing style that reporters usually have to 
follow. This makes their writing more interesting. Over time, readers may 
begin to identify with a columnist, and may even start saying, "That guy 
thinks just like me". Without a face to match with a voice, this process is 
much harder.

If an author doesn't *want* his photo up there, he's perfectly within his 
right. If they do, however, we should encourage it. There's a good reason 
that all those other sites you mentioned follow it.

Regards,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Sun Nov 18 22:51:52 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Sun Nov 18 22:51:52 2001
Subject: [thesite] Where to put author info (was: ...Other Articles
 Written...)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119095543.00af28c0@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 19, Madhu Menon had something to say about Re: [thesite] [bug]...

>>the pic on the article makes us look like zdnet, webmonkey, et friggin
>>cetera
>
>I don't agree with you. It adds humanity to the site, and humanity is 
>sorely missing on the Web.
>
>It also helps put faces to names. Now you have an inkling of who [xyz], the 
>guy who answers all those questions on [abc], is. It reinforces the 
>community feeling. We're all (I hope) friends here, and I like it when 
>people post pictures of themselves in outrageous Hawaain shirts (Hi 
>aardvark!) and weird bunny ears (Hi Isaac!) and even supposedly tickling 
>chimps (Hi to me!).

I don't want to speak for anyone, but from my perspective, it doesn't look
like anyone is against having pictures of authors.

I think the question is where to put it. It makes sense to me to put it on
the user page, since it's definitely more related to a user than an
article. Rudy seems to feel the same way (from what I got reading his
post) and that also makes sense to me -- because he's a data modeler.

Really, the only argument for putting the picture on the article page
itself is to take out the necessary click of the link of the author's
username on the article page to get to the user page. I think we might be
able to do something to make the link to the user page more prominent, but
I think almost assimilating the user/member page into the article itself
is a bit too far.

So, understanding that, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the
matter.

Thanks,


--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com





From jeff at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 22:56:45 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Sun Nov 18 22:56:45 2001
Subject: [thesite] Bug alert
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119093127.00ab0518@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: 

madhu,

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
> From: Madhu Menon
>
> Yup, it's on w.e.o
>
> Did I say it was on t.e.o ?
>
> [Checks previous message]
>
> No, apparently I didn't.
>
> Anyway, since it's on our *live* site, I figure it's
> more important :)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

it will get fixed when the current version of t.e.o. gets moved up to w.e.o.

for various reasons, we have a policy of not working on the live codebase.

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From isaac at members.evolt.org  Sun Nov 18 23:40:29 2001
From: isaac at members.evolt.org (isaac)
Date: Sun Nov 18 23:40:29 2001
Subject: [thesite] Where to put author info (was: ...Other Articles Written...)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> I think the question is where to put it. It makes sense to me to put it on
> the user page, since it's definitely more related to a user than an
> article. Rudy seems to feel the same way (from what I got reading his
> post) and that also makes sense to me -- because he's a data modeler.

Likewise, the author's name is equally more related to the user page than
the article itself. (Maybe we should only link to the user page by their
ID!) But this should *not* be a database where we represent our content
thinking of tables and columns. We can organise it that way in the database
(obviously) but it should certainly not be output visually in that manner.

I've seen photos of all/most admins and I can go some way towards putting
names to faces within our community, but I can't imagine what it's like for
many others who are either new to the wider membership, or unable to make
community gatherings due to distance or lack of confidence.

I strongly believe that author photos will go a great way to adding
personality and character to an otherwise (largely) lifeless site. They have
the potential to do more for fellowship and community within evolt.org than
many other issues we've discussed or implemented in the past.

If you don't want your photo on your articles, don't put it there. If you
don't want your bio-snip at the end of your articles, don't use that feature
either. We're providing the option for users to not participate to that
level if they either have an unhealthy love for database structures, or are
not happy with their visual appearance. :P


isaac

--------------------------------------------------------------
triple zero digital | upstairs at 200 the parade, norwood 5067
(08)83320545 | www.triplezero.com.au | isaac at triplezero.com.au




From webguru at vsnl.net  Sun Nov 18 23:44:27 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sun Nov 18 23:44:27 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this
  Author
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119110334.00b05920@203.197.12.4>

 > Really, the only argument for putting the picture on the article page
 > itself is to take out the necessary click of the link of the author's
 > username on the article page to get to the user page. I think we might be

Ah, but that's where you must stop looking at it strictly from a functional 
point of view, Matt. That's the mistake Nielsen makes.

I'm a user experience consultant, and I make a living telling people to get 
rid of the extraneous and irrelevant stuff from sites. At the same time, I 
am also aware of the principles of good design.

Design is more than figuring out which font to use and what colour to have 
on the background. Good design conveys a certain image, a mood, a feeling. 
It reinforces the words on the page. If not, we'd juse have Yahoo grey 
backgrounds and black text, wouldn't we? All the elements on a page 
contribute to that image.

In this case, a picture adds a human warmth to the page. It breaks down an 
invisible barrier that existed between people. When I'm reading an article 
on ASP, I'm no longer just looking at a lifeless code fragment. I'm looking 
at a code fragment written by Matt Warden, whom I remember as having helped 
out with my ASP problem the other day on the list. Suddenly, I feel a 
greater sense of comaraderie with Matt Warden. He's no longer just a name 
on a mailing list. I have a face I can match with that voice. Ever had a 
pan pal whom you met face to face only a long while after you started 
writing to him or her? It suddenly adds character to the words he or she 
writes.

Since this is "right side of the brain" stuff (and programmers tend to be 
"left side of the brain" people - I know; I've been  there and done that), 
it's difficult to convey in words. It's something you feel. Why did we 
start thechat? To encourage more social interaction between list members. 
This is simply another step in that direction. I bet good money that you 
will see more article comments if you start putting up pictures of authors.

HTH,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From webguru at vsnl.net  Sun Nov 18 23:53:11 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Sun Nov 18 23:53:11 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this
  Author
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119111846.02ecce30@203.197.12.4>

 > Really, the only argument for putting the picture on the article page
 > itself is to take out the necessary click of the link of the author's
 > username on the article page to get to the user page. I think we might be

If you feel this is relevant, please do move this to theforum (but with 
context i.e., history of what we're discussing). I think it would be a good 
idea.

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net

Weblog: http://madman.weblogs.com




From martin at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 19 01:37:21 2001
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Mon Nov 19 01:37:21 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this  Author
Message-ID: 

Madhu Menon wrote on 19/11/01 5:40 am

>>(perhaps this semantic blur results from the phrase "i could care less"
>>which is actually a good example of irony... or sarcasm... or something...)
>
>Um, no. The phrase "I could care less" is merely incorrect usage. The 
>correct form is "I *couldn't* care less".

Unless you're being ironic:
"I could care less. Just not a lot, that's all"
Source: My dad

>>the pic on the article makes us look like zdnet, webmonkey, et friggin
>>cetera
>
>I don't agree with you. It adds humanity to the site, and humanity is 
>sorely missing on the Web.

Absolutely. They didn't do it for fun, y'know. If you want to think about
how 'competition' do stuff, there's a useful rule:
* If one person is doing it, it's an experiment
* If two people are doing it, it's a bit of copycatting
* If 3 people are doing it consistently, it's working.

I'll put at least a pound (and my normal bet is 2p as you know)
on zdnet, wm etc having put a *lot* of time and money into
finding out whether humanising their contributors increases
visitors. If they're still doing it, it's because it's working.

We do have other points of similarity - some damned good
articles for one. Re-inventing the wheel's all very well,
but square is not a good direction

Cheers
Martin

_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
       martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
  tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985                      Edinburgh,
  url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk                 Scotland




From martin at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 19 01:39:18 2001
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Mon Nov 19 01:39:18 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
Message-ID: 

rudy wrote on 19/11/01 1:34 am

>maybe it *is* serious enough to take at least to theforum 

I think so, and should be for all significant changes in the
user experience, *especially* where this group had the
idea in the first place, so theforum as a body hasn't had the
chance to think it through (even if individuals have by being
here).

Cheers
Martin

_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
       martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
  tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985                      Edinburgh,
  url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk                 Scotland




From martin at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 19 01:59:25 2001
From: martin at members.evolt.org (Martin)
Date: Mon Nov 19 01:59:25 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this Author
Message-ID: 

Martin wrote on 19/11/01 7:42 am

>rudy wrote on 19/11/01 1:34 am
>
>>maybe it *is* serious enough to take at least to theforum 
>
>I think so, and should be for all significant changes in the
>user experience, *especially* where this group had the
>idea in the first place, so theforum as a body hasn't had the
>chance to think it through (even if individuals have by being
>here).

Of course, this doesn't mean that we're saying "We can't
decide, so it's over to you guys". 

It says "We think *this*. Can you confirm that we're not
talking shit, that this won't break anything we haven't
thought of and that we can all point back at this and say
'we *all* decided that', so no-one can give thesite a
kicking for it in the future if it all goes wrong"

In other words,
1) it removes 'us and them' mentalities
2) it gets a larger collective intelligence and experience
    thinking it through
3) it provides a blame shield for anyone working on it.

Cheers
Martin

_______________________________________________
email: martin at easyweb.co.uk             PGP ID: 0xA835CCCB
       martin at members.evolt.org      snailmail: 30 Shandon Place
  tel: +44 (0)774 063 9985                      Edinburgh,
  url: http://www.easyweb.co.uk                 Scotland




From jeff at members.evolt.org  Mon Nov 19 03:00:39 2001
From: jeff at members.evolt.org (.jeff)
Date: Mon Nov 19 03:00:39 2001
Subject: [thesite] improved? rating layout
Message-ID: 

hi all,

based on feedback over the past few days involving the labels for our rating
scheme, i've put together a new layout for the rating section of the article
page.  i've left the old layout in place so you can compare.  there are
still a few minor issues to work out with this as far as colors, styles,
etc., but nothing that's a showstopper.  i'd like to hear your feedback on
this even if it's as simple as "i like it".  if you don't really have
anything to say, please respond with a simple [+|-]1.

http://test.evolt.org/article/thesite/17/8869/#rating

thanks,

.jeff

http://evolt.org/
jeff at members.evolt.org
http://members.evolt.org/jeff/





From webguru at vsnl.net  Mon Nov 19 03:18:16 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Mon Nov 19 03:18:16 2001
Subject: [thesite] improved? rating layout
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119143844.00ab2650@203.197.12.4>

Hi Jeff.

Good to see you're burning the midnight oil - again!
Get some rest, dude.  :)
(What am I saying? I stay awake till 4 AM)

At 02:34 PM 11/19/2001, .jeff opined:
>etc., but nothing that's a showstopper.  i'd like to hear your feedback on
>this even if it's as simple as "i like it".  if you don't really have
>anything to say, please respond with a simple [+|-]1.

Neat concept. You want suggestions? I've got some minor ones.

1) The "rated very good to excellent" statement, apart from really kicking 
English in the balls, is vague. I feel that your gauge conveys the 
information much better. Hence, the line is redundant.

2) Put a *little* more space between the rating gauge and the radio buttons 
below. I get the feeling that the gauge is hogging the scene a bit, to the 
point that the rating scale and button are receding from the page (red does 
that to things). Another line's space would make the rating button stand 
out while not losing the link to the gauge.

3) Trivial point: If we changed the border on the table from 3D borders to 
a flat border, it would look better.

4) I see you've adopted the poor-excellent scale. Good choice. 

Unrelated comments:
1) The "Additional articles published on evolt.org by this author" section 
is too much like a rectangular mass of lines. It needs a bit more leading 
i.e., breathing room between lines. This helps readability (that underlines 
already destroy).

Does that help?

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Mon Nov 19 06:02:02 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Mon Nov 19 06:02:02 2001
Subject: [thesite] Where to put author info (was: ...Other Articles
 Written...)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Nov 19, isaac had something to say about RE: [thesite] Where to put...

>If you don't want your photo on your articles, don't put it there. If you
>don't want your bio-snip at the end of your articles, don't use that feature
>either. We're providing the option for users to not participate to that
>level if they either have an unhealthy love for database structures, or are
>not happy with their visual appearance. :P

Well, it ain't that simple. There's no way for me to get my picture up,
but to put it on my user page rather than my articles. And there's no way
to get rid of those stats on our article pages, either.

Also, "putting things where they make most sense" doesn't equate to "an
unhealthy love for database structures".

Thanks,

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From mwarden at mattwarden.com  Mon Nov 19 06:05:23 2001
From: mwarden at mattwarden.com (Warden, Matt)
Date: Mon Nov 19 06:05:23 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this  Author
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119110334.00b05920@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: 

On Nov 19, Madhu Menon had something to say about Re: [thesite] [bug]...

>Since this is "right side of the brain" stuff (and programmers tend to be 
>"left side of the brain" people - I know; I've been  there and done that), 
>it's difficult to convey in words. It's something you feel. Why did we 
>start thechat? To encourage more social interaction between list members. 
>This is simply another step in that direction. I bet good money that you 
>will see more article comments if you start putting up pictures of authors.

Once again, this isn;t about whether or not to put up pictures of
authors. I'm personally all for that... on the article page where we've
put this kind of stuff in the past and where it makes most sense, IMO.

I really don't understand why everyone is arguing the "whether to put up
author pictures" argument. Can someone explain to me why it has to be on
the article page?

--
mattwarden
mattwarden.com




From r937 at interlog.com  Mon Nov 19 06:16:04 2001
From: r937 at interlog.com (rudy)
Date: Mon Nov 19 06:16:04 2001
Subject: [thesite] Where to put author info (was: ...Other Articles Written...)
Message-ID: <01c170f4$560cdfe0$e24e149a@rudy>

> Um, no. The phrase "I could care less" is merely incorrect usage.

tell that to all the people who use it ironically or sarcastically or
whatever you call it when you say something and mean the opposite
on purpose

> I strongly believe that author photos will go a great way to adding
> personality and character to an otherwise (largely) lifeless site

true, true, but on each article??  to follow your line of reasoning, they
would also accomplish this objective on the front page!!  and if you say
"no, not on the front page" then i gotcha!!!

there's an old joke about a guy who meets a girl and convinces her he's
just won the lottery and he hasn't been with a girl for months so would she
come back to his place for ten thousand bucks, but when they get there he
confesses that he lied and he's only got fifty bucks to give her and she
says "no way, what kind of girl do you think i am?" and he says "we've
already established that, now we're just haggling over the price"

think carefully about your argument that author photos add X or Y to the
look and feel of the site

if the argument applies, it should apply uniformly, and if it doesn't apply
to the front page then we're just haggling

>If you don't want your photo on your articles, don't put it there.

let's not carry the database analogy too far, but how do i accomplish the
above?

i don't want my photo on any of my articles, but i do want it on my author
page

is this now a separate switch on the author data?





From webguru at vsnl.net  Mon Nov 19 06:32:55 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Mon Nov 19 06:32:55 2001
Subject: [thesite] [bug] t.e.o. - Other Articles Written by this 
  Author
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119110334.00b05920@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119180331.00ab2c18@203.197.12.4>

At 05:38 PM 11/19/2001, Warden, Matt opined:
>I really don't understand why everyone is arguing the "whether to put up
>author pictures" argument. Can someone explain to me why it has to be on
>the article page?

I just wrote a long argument for putting pictures ON the *article* page, 
Matt. It wasn't about whether or not to put up pictures, but about what 
they do to articles when viewed *along* with the article.

Regards,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From webguru at vsnl.net  Mon Nov 19 06:53:12 2001
From: webguru at vsnl.net (Madhu Menon)
Date: Mon Nov 19 06:53:12 2001
Subject: [thesite] Where to put author info
In-Reply-To: <01c170f4$560cdfe0$e24e149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119180509.00af0048@203.197.12.4>

At 05:48 PM 11/19/2001, rudy opined:

>tell that to all the people who use it ironically or sarcastically or
>whatever you call it when you say something and mean the opposite
>on purpose

They use it in that part of the world to express irony? 

I've always used the correct form literally. I think that people use it 
without realising the correct usage (at least from what I've seen on 
mailing lists).

Sarcasm = use of irony with the clear intention of verbally hurting a person
Sardonicism (often confused with sarcasm) = mocking someone, often cynically.

But I certainly digress.


>true, true, but on each article??  to follow your line of reasoning, they
>would also accomplish this objective on the front page!!  and if you say
>"no, not on the front page" then i gotcha!!!

Well, actually I wouldn't mind it on the front page either. I'm just not 
sure our neutral colour scheme is the best for lots of photography, and it 
would also add to the page size.

Take a look at ZDNet Anchordesk's front page - full of photos: 
http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/

I used to work for CNET, and one of the reasons they have those big photos 
of people in their "Perspectives" columns is that it worked really well. 
Check out the perspectives home page at: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1013.html

And the photos in individual columns: 
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1276-210-7889908-1.html

(in fact, before they redesigned CNET to fixed width, they used to have 
HUGE photos of columnists)


>if the argument applies, it should apply uniformly, and if it doesn't apply
>to the front page then we're just haggling

Though I've already agreed to photos on the front page, we don't have to 
apply everything uniformly to a site. It's perfectly acceptable on a 
corporate site, for example to have a different look for the home page from 
the rest of the site. The home page and article pages are not the same. I'm 
talking about the human touch that you *feel* when viewing an article 
*along* with the article. But then again, design is a subjective thing.

If you want, we can (and should) move this to theforum. You can make your 
arguments, Isaac and I will make ours, and then in a democratic manner, 
we'll vote. As Spock would say, the good of the many outweighs the good of 
the few.

Regards,

Madhu

<<<   *   >>>
Madhu Menon
User Experience Consultant
e-mail: webguru at vsnl.net




From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Mon Nov 19 07:03:58 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Mon Nov 19 07:03:58 2001
Subject: [thesite] Where to put author info
References: <01c170f4$560cdfe0$e24e149a@rudy>
Message-ID: <022201c170fb$4fda66e0$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: "rudy" 


|
| >If you don't want your photo on your articles, don't put it there.
|
| let's not carry the database analogy too far, but how do i accomplish the
| above?
|
| i don't want my photo on any of my articles, but i do want it on my author
| page
|
| is this now a separate switch on the author data?


Very good question .. and I'm hoping the answer is "yes" to these.  For all
three pieces of information:

Full Name
Author's Photo
Author's Bio

I agree with those saying that the photo adds more personality/humanity to
the article pages.  I also agree with those saying that it should only be on
the user/member page.  So, yeah, I'm 50/50 either way.

However, I think its up to each person to decide *if* they want the
photo/bio/full name to appear on the article page.  So, let's put in the
triggers, not just a simple matter of "if exists".  Looking at the current
version of teo.. looks like jeff's got the if exists working well for the
bio/other articles part.  (yeah!!)

Would the triggers satisfy those people that feel strongly that the photos
shouldn't appear?  Or am I just trying to make everyone happy, and this
isn't a "good enough" solution?  (btw, I'm asking sincerely .. not being a
smarty ;)

I'll +1 moving the conversation to theforum ... with context.  (And
preferably if/when Jeff takes the css files I did yesterday and puts them in
the correct spot, so that those reviewing the latest changes will see it
looking correctly/as intended... it's close, but there's a few nitty-picky
things IMHO.)


Michele





From michele at wordpro.on.ca  Mon Nov 19 07:28:31 2001
From: michele at wordpro.on.ca (Michele Foster)
Date: Mon Nov 19 07:28:31 2001
Subject: [thesite] improved? rating layout
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011119143844.00ab2650@203.197.12.4>
Message-ID: <023501c170fe$c01e4d60$95aa2642@aci.on.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Madhu Menon" 



|
| 1) The "rated very good to excellent" statement, apart from really kicking
| English in the balls, is vague. I feel that your gauge conveys the
| information much better. Hence, the line is redundant.

I like the words there too .... BUT ... I'd be happy enough changing the
Rating title to Article Rating.  If we keep the words too, add "This
article" to it, please.


|
| 2) Put a *little* more space between the rating gauge and the radio
buttons
| below.

+1



|
| 3) Trivial point: If we changed the border on the table from 3D borders to
| a flat border, it would look better.


Not sure I understand .. or maybe this was already changed?



| Unrelated comments:
| 1) The "Additional articles published on evolt.org by this author" section
| is too much like a rectangular mass of lines. It needs a bit more leading
| i.e., breathing room between lines. This helps readability (that
underlines
| already destroy).

+1

Can we add padding to just that