I think it also bears saying that you can design sites that degrade well in older browsers - I have a personal site (littleblueeasy.com, find the transformation log if you want to see. Be forewarned, however - topless pics of me!) that I think looks really good in newer browsers. In older browsers (or just turn off CSS to see the degraded version), it still works great, even though it's a lot plainer. (BTW, if anyone who does visit has problems, please let me know so I can fix them!) Developing a site that looks how you want it in new browsers and degrades well requires some forethought about the arrangement of divs, etc. Often you prioritize information on the page: what's most important, for example... Designing to standards and then kicking out the people who don't support standards misses the POINT of designing to standards. A good standards-compliant site should work in almost all browsers, even if it doesn't LOOK perfect in some of them! :) -- Jacob Stetser :: jms at icongarden.com Internet Experience Consultant icongarden.com: Making good ideas grow!