[thechat] Religion

Chris Marsh chris at webbtech.co.uk
Tue Dec 17 09:17:01 CST 2002



> in serious problems and misunderstandings about Islam. Many
> web sites are dedicated to the propaganda against Islam and
> Pakistan. Being a Muslim and Pakistani, it is not tolerable
> for me.

So why not contact the publishers of these sites rather than making the
massive, crass and potentially insulting assumptions that the entire
list a) reads these sites and b) operates in ignorance of the nature of

> I like to show the people real pictures of Islam and
> Pakistan. When I tell people about Islam, I do Jihad. Yes,

I am certainly aware of the true meaning of the word Jihad. I'm not
suggesting that you do this on purpose, but often you appear
patronising, self absorbed and arrogant. I am sure that these are not
traits that a muslim would consciously adopt.

> it's also Jihad. For most non-Muslims, Jihad is an Islamic
> name of armed campaign against non-believers. But such
> campaign is the most extreme type of Jihad which is only
> applicable when a non-Muslim nation attacks or shows
> aggression against a Muslim nation. Jihad is a struggle for
> the religion of Islam. It has many types according to the
> situations. Telling people about Islam is also Jihad and it's
> also an obligation on every Muslim. It's the best way of
> Jihad in peace. I think you will agree that I have never
> criticized any religion. I just tell about Islam.

Ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Religions by their very nature require active
recruitment[0]. Perhaps you should accept that the membership of this
particular list is perfectly capable of doing their own research and
reaching their own conclusions on the subject of religion. I'm sure that
if someone has a specific question regarding Pakistan and Islam they
would know where to turn by now :)

> > what are you worried about?  whatever happens, its a
> statistical fact
> > that, theres always  gonna be somebody who doesnt like you/your
> > religion/your country etc.
> I am worried about wrong perceptions about Islam and
> Pakistan. I am worried about that international propaganda

So why keep blathering on about it here? Surely your efforts would be
better expended in a forum where people demonstrate applied ignorance
rather than a forum where people are generally informed and open of

> which is going on against Islam and Pakistan. I don't say you
> have to love my religion but I say don't criticize (referring
> to propaganda) Islam and Pakistan just because you don't like

Frankly, I'll criticise who and what I please for whatever reason I
choose. It's called "freedom of speech"[1], and should be preserved at
all costs. I don't ask you to agree with my criticisms or even pay them
any attention. Have I ever criticised Islam or Pakistan because I "don't
like them"? Has anyone else on this list? Don't mistake people not
liking an individual with people not liking an individual's beliefs[2].

> them. (The pronoun "you" is NOT indicating to Ashok. Here
> "you" can be anybody who dislikes Islam or Pakistan.) My
> religious duty is just to tell people about Islam. It is
> their problem if they agree or not.

I'm sure that someone as enlightened as the prophet Mohammed would
realise that in this day and age there is what's known as a time and a
place. Feel free to exercise your religious rights, but bear in mind
that you are an ambassador for your religion. If you irritate people in
the name of Allah you are doing your religion no favours regardless of
the purity of your motives.

I'll state for the record I have made a conscious and informed decision
not to follow any organised religion. I don't disbelieve in God, but for
reasons forthcoming I find Hir irrelevant.

Comment on this, Syed ;)

God created the universe, ergo God is not within the universe. The
universe is space-time, ie fourth dimensional. Thus, God must exist in
the fifth dimension or above. We are three dimensional entities. A two
dimensional entity would be a plane. Three dimensional entities are more
complex than two dimensional entities, but we are unable to comprehend a
two dimensional entity in anything other than mathematical terms.
Therefore any interaction between us and a two dimensional entity is
uninformed, thus arbitrary. Thus, God may well interact with us *but* in
an uninformed manner, thus arbitrarily. This would certainly explain why
churches fall on orphans, and why God does not meddle in the affairs of
mortals (free will). IMHO attempting to answer the question "Does God
exist?" is pointless when the real question should be "Is God
relevant?". In fact, who cares about God anyway? What did God ever do
for anyone? Why can't religious zealots ever concentrate on behaving
appropriately within society not because "God says I should" but because
it is _The_Right_Thing_To_Do_(tm). Surely in this case even if God
exists you'll get to heaven anyway, having been a just and virtuous
individual? Of course certain religious dogma would have you believe
that you simply won't get to heaven (or whatever bullshit construct you
wish to believe in) unless you accept that particular religion. Here we
go back to recruitment. It surprises me that anyone would believe in a
perfect God that totally misses the paradox of faith being something
that you cannot learn, yet being a pre-requisite for admittance to

> As a matter of fact I like cool religious and political
> discussions. As indicated by somebody here earlier, pure
> science (computer or any other) is off-topic for my buddies
> who come here to relax.

Okay, I'll indicate right now that I come here to relax, and religious
zealots constantly banging on about their religion as if no one else has
ever bothered to actually find out anything about it irritates the heck
out of me. Understand: I DO NOT NEED EDUCATING on the subject of *any*
religion unless I request education. Do not confuse this with a distaste
for theological and religious discussion. I object to lengthly discourse
containing about half a sentence-worth of actual information; the
remainder being generalities backed up by nothing more than your
enduring paranoia.

This is not an attack on Islam or Pakistan. It is not a personal attack
on you. Personally I find you very agreeable, but I object to your
bigotry as I would object to bigotry from anyone.


Chris Marsh

[0] Obviously there are exceptions; Judaism for example.
[1] Although this is mandated in the US, it isn't in the UK.
[2] For the record this is NOT aimed at you specifically.

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